Hoping to experience world as it is

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

Mm, it can be tricky, but is there a choice which is NOT coming as a product of the conditioning?
Does the sense choose?
Does a thought choose?

What can decide to follow or not to follow a thought?

Hm, so there appeared to be a decision to pause watching a TV show and come into this forum to try to answer the questions. A thought came as a seeming reminder. Maybe that's just what conditioning is?
A sense doesn't choose.. a thought says I want to do that now, but the action itself is the choice apparently.. so no choice, just action.

Sow hat can decide to follow or not follow a thought? It seems that there is nobody that can decide that. Either a thought is followed or not followed. I don't know if there can be enough habit from conditioning to not follow thoughts? It hasn't seemed to work "for me", but others say that they stopped thoughts with a lot of practice (inquiry type)

Does a thought needed in order to feel the warmth of the hot water?
Is it a thought which sense?
Is it a thought which sense?

This I'm still not so sure about. It seems like in order to know that the water is warm or answer there is a kind of thought about it. Another example, my shoulder is sore, slightly less than before, but still pain whenever a thought comes about it. But I can't say I know it's there unless there's a thought like "ouch" or as soon as it's noticed there is a thought.. but whenever attention goes to it, there is pain, so there's an assumption it's there all the time but just not noticed.
A thought doesn't sense, but it seems like thought interpretes what is felt. as "ouch" But can also be misinterpreted by thoughts, like I often don't notice that my body is too hot (or thoughts don't say anything about it) but instead say something like "something is wrong, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing" (though they don't usually say that so directly, it's more a feeling I'm doing something wrong or not right) So the body is sensing something even when there's no thought direclty about it, I guess. Then thought makes a wrong diagnosis, of a "me" who is doing something wrong. Instead of, this body is too hot.
Sorry that seems confusing..
Direct answer, now that thoughts said all that, no thoughts aren't doing the feeling of warm, they are saying this water is warm (or not noticing) That brings up the question do thoughts notice. I talked to someone last year about "this" who said that any noticing of anything is a thought itself!! I'm also thinking of Mooji saying "unless mind says something happened, nothing happened".
So I can say, a thought doesn't sense, but I'm not SURE there can be awareness of sensing without a kind of thought.

Ok will stop now..

thank you Luchana!
Much Love!!

Lila

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

A sense doesn't choose.. a thought says I want to do that now, but the action itself is the choice apparently.. so no choice, just action

YES> Action are happening according to different stimuls, conditioning.. but this doesn't mean that there is someone or something choosing the action.

Can you clearly see that?

I don't know if there can be enough habit from conditioning to not follow thoughts?

Somehow system learns to behave in different way and thoughts become lighter and not demanding attention at all costs.
Do not worry about that, it's like a thought to come and answer the questions here instead of watching a tv.
There is a subtle sense, intuition sort of that coming here is the what is right and best at this given moment.

Follow that :-)

Sorry that seems confusing..
Direct answer, now that thoughts said all that, no thoughts aren't doing the feeling of warm, they are saying this water is warm (or not noticing) That brings up the question do thoughts notice. I talked to someone last year about "this" who said that any noticing of anything is a thought itself!! I'm also thinking of Mooji saying "unless mind says something happened, nothing happened".
So I can say, a thought doesn't sense, but I'm not SURE there can be awareness of sensing without a kind of thought.

It is ok, confusion is so welcome here. We read so many things and we hear so different and experiences...and we got confused.

Look
Does a thought about writing doing the writing?
Does a thought about drinking coffee drinking the coffee?
What can a thought do really?
What is the substance of a thought?


Sending much love and till later.

Luchana

[Lila61]

Hello Luchana,

More than a week since I finally came to answer these questions, I had thought there a lot of them, but not very many at all! like you said in our meeting, not coming IS just like a child wanting to put off going to bed. It's always "Later!" (Until it's actually already sleeping!)

Does a thought about writing doing the writing?
Does a thought about drinking coffee drinking the coffee?
What can a thought do really?
What is the substance of a thought?

No a thought about writing isn't doing the writing. It's not known what is doing the writing. It's like the writing is doing itself.. Fingers moving, nobody doing it. (though a reminder thought that it was not always automatic, and isn't automatic if a keyboard change, but it's not known how that new learning takes place, and there's no clear somebody doing it. )

No a thought about drinking coffee doesn't drink the coffee, it's just a thought about drinking coffee.

A thought can't do anything, and there is no substance at all to a thought. it just seems to be there, is somehow known, but there is no substance.

[Luchana]

Hi Lila.

All good :-) Like we spoke - no urgency, no rush.

No a thought about drinking coffee doesn't drink the coffee, it's just a thought about drinking coffee.

Right.

A thought can't do anything, and there is no substance at all to a thought. it just seems to be there, is somehow known, but there is no substance.

Yep, it is somehow know.
Does the knowing requires a knower?

Is there a knowing without an experience of it?
And is there an experience without the knowing of it?
Are there two things?

What do you find?

Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

Does the knowing requires a knower?

Is there a knowing without an experience of it?
And is there an experience without the knowing of it?
Are there two things?

What do you find?[/rtripquote]

Only the knowing is known.. there is no evidence of a knower aside from a thought that "there must be one" .. and a memory that many teachers have said that "I" is what knows, or "I" IS the knower, apart from what it knows. But also a memory that they may. have suggested that was like a "first step" to discovering that the knowing and known are not two.
There is no experience of a knower.

There's no knowing without experience of it..
There's no experience without the knowing of it.
knowing and experiencing must be the same thing. Is there such a thing as an experince, or is it only experiencing? An experience seems like a thought or a memory?

So hoping that I will be leaving on Tuesday at 6 pm.. Still keeping fingers crossed that nothing happens to stop the trip. Jess's father did catch Covid on the trip HOME, but didn't give it to them..

See you tomorrow (today?) at 11, I remember now, hope I don't forget that it's a day earlier this week.. I could have done Tuesday because I won't leave until 6 pm, but maybe Monday is better anyway..

Looking forward to seeing you..

Much Love,
Lila

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

we looked at those questions to a certain degree yesterday,

There's no knowing without experience of it..
There's no experience without the knowing of it.
knowing and experiencing must be the same thing.

YES.

Here is a link for a piano king which I mentioned to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U85H1ir2P7g

Play the video and leave the body to move the way it wants to move. Try this with eyes closed.
Read the questions bellow and while moving like that gently pay attention:

Notice does "someone or something" in the body moves the body or?
Do the movements of the body need an approval from thoughts?
Do thoughts have power to appear as movements of the body?
How many kg/libs can a thought lift?

Enjoy :-)

Much love,
Luchana

ps. hope you are already in Ireland hugging the baby boy :-)

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,
here is something to explore after our meeting yesterday.


Lie on your back and relax. Have a look at the ceiling.
There is thought to be a distance between that what is thought to be known as ‘body’ and that what is labelled ‘ceiling’.

Close your eyes. Now focus on the space between body and ceiling.
Take your time, breathe in and out and simply look. Keep the eyes shut.

What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

Have fun:-)

Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

with eyes closed the immediate sense is that there is no body and there is no celiling. With eyes closed, ceiling is imagiination only. Body is just sensations, incluidng sensation of breathing, but sounds are heard also and without thoughts and imagination there is no distinction between sounds and body. i don't know what to say about distance between ceiling and body with eyes closed when the ceiling isn't perceived at all with eyes closed, but with eyes open the body (in form of sensation) isn't perceived as having a location.


The boy only exists as a separate object as an imagination

I've also occasionally come back to the question "what do I really look like?" since we spoke yesterday, there has been a kind of knowing for many years that "I' don't look like the face in the mirror or photos, but now wondering is there a difference between "the real me " and whatever I am looking at? Memories of myself as a child are images of rooms, outdoor locations, moving scenery.. but no trace of someone who had been looking at those things. maybe memories of a feeling, but not separate from the scenery.

Thank you for sending the new question, it is fun!

Love,
Lila

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

with eyes closed the immediate sense is that there is no body and there is no celiling. With eyes closed, ceiling is imagiination only. Body is just sensations, incluidng sensation of breathing, but sounds are heard also and without thoughts and imagination there is no distinction between sounds and body. i don't know what to say about distance between ceiling and body with eyes closed when the ceiling isn't perceived at all with eyes closed, but with eyes open the body (in form of sensation) isn't perceived as having a location.

Beautiful!

I've also occasionally come back to the question "what do I really look like?" since we spoke yesterday, there has been a kind of knowing for many years that "I' don't look like the face in the mirror or photos, but now wondering is there a difference between "the real me " and whatever I am looking at? Memories of myself as a child are images of rooms, outdoor locations, moving scenery.. but no trace of someone who had been looking at those things. maybe memories of a feeling, but not separate from the scenery.

This is the game of thoughts. Wondering and bringing memories (again as form of thoughts)
Let's try something:

Can you notice the space "in the head" where thoughts appear.
Can you notice that this space is absolutely empty and there are thoughts from time to time.

Can self be found in this space? Center which produces thoughts?

Is there anything that can be called "yourself"?

Is this space "in the head" separate from the space outside the head?

Without an image of a head - are there boundaries between in and out?

Is there in and out at all?

Where "what you call "yourself" is found? In or out, or neither?

Thank you for sending the new question, it is fun!

I'm glad that you like them :-)


Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

Can you notice the space "in the head" where thoughts appear.
Can you notice that this space is absolutely empty and there are thoughts from time to time.

Can self be found in this space? Center which produces thoughts?

Is there anything that can be called "yourself"?

Is this space "in the head" separate from the space outside the head?

Without an image of a head - are there boundaries between in and out?

Is there in and out at all?

Where "what you call "yourself" is found? In or out, or neither?
that

No, there is a sort of space, not in a head. I don't know if i can say thoughts appear "in it', they don't seem to really be there but somehow are known, but i don't know where they are

No I can't find a center that produces thoughts, including this.

There is no single thing that can be called "myself", unless everything is called that because there is nothing observable that is apart from anything

There is a feeling that the space inside the head is separate from what is seen by eyes outside the head, or two diffrent spaces that are connected, dark and light, but with eyes open the dark space doesn't seem to exist. Yet it still doesn't seem that thoughts appear in the "outside' world.

there is an idea that there is a boundary between in and out like a boundary between water and air, no physical boundry but somehow one becomes the other one. But I don't think the inner space exists as a space, it's just visual blackness. but i don't know. It seems I have answered those questions with more clarity or obviousness, now doesn't seem so obvious. I don't know if there is an in or an out at all right now

Myself is still imagined to be 'in' but it isn't found inside or outside.. there is a looking for it, that is maybe mistaken to be It as an entity.. An I that is looking for itself. but maybe there is just looking for it..

Thank you, Luchana

Love,
Lila

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

wonderful looking.

there is an idea that there is a boundary between in and out like a boundary between water and air, no physical boundry but somehow one becomes the other one. But I don't think the inner space exists as a space, it's just visual blackness. but i don't know. It seems I have answered those questions with more clarity or obviousness, now doesn't seem so obvious. I don't know if there is an in or an out at all right now

The clarity is still here when it is looked at :-) This is how "it works"
The moment it is looked at - it is obvious.

So no self is found anywhere in or out?
No center which is producing the thoughts?

Have a look around you. You can see colours of the room, of your 'feet’, of your ‘knees’, of your ‘chest’ and perhaps of your 'hands'.

Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.

What do you see? Do you see your face? Do you see your head?
Do you see anything at all there - any colours, shapes, or any movement?
Looking into the place where others see your face, do you see colours or shapes there?

Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

HI Luchana,

quote]So no self is found anywhere in or out?
No center which is producing the thoughts?
[/quote] Now the answer is no, there is no self found "in or out", all that is found "In" with eyes open are sensations, and nothing outside could be producing the thoughts (as far as I can tell!) . But there is no definable "in" that they are in.. The thoughts appear, but don't have a location so there is no one point that is producing thoughts.

Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.

What do you see? Do you see your face? Do you see your head?
Do you see anything at all there - any colours, shapes, or any movement?
Looking into the place where others see your face, do you see colours or shapes there?

. No, where others see my face i only see a hand pointing, though I see the sides of my nose and dark edges of my eye sockets.. and some hair.

Thank you Luchana,

Much Love,
Lila

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

very good observation.

But there is no definable "in" that they are in.. The thoughts appear, but don't have a location so there is no one point that is producing thoughts.

Oh and is there a definable out ?

. No, where others see my face i only see a hand pointing, though I see the sides of my nose and dark edges of my eye sockets.. and some hair.

Good.
Let’s examine the solidity of the head.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

Oh and is there a definable out ?

With eyes open there is no definable IN, so there can't be an out, but there is still an idea of an in.. but it has no substance.

with eyes closed there is no definable OUT, so there can't be an IN..

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

. There is a feeling of poking, thought of "hard" and a mental image of a finger poking down. But no head.


With fingers on both sides, there is just a feeling thoughts call "hard" and an image of what it might look like, but not clear image. No there is nothing between the pressure points. what is "between the fingers" seems no diffeent than what is eveywhere else, nothing/emptiness..

Thank you for today, it was very nice!!
I may send an email about what I didn't want to say in the small group, it seems relevant to the questions here..

Much Love!
Lila

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

With eyes open there is no definable IN, so there can't be an out, but there is still an idea of an in.. but it has no substance.

YES. No substance :-)

Can you look does a thought have a substance?
What is it made of?
Does it have a smell or a taste?

Thank you for today, it was very nice!!
I may send an email about what I didn't want to say in the small group, it seems relevant to the questions here..

I'm so happy you joined and as about the sharing - no worries, whenever feels ok for you the sharing will happen.

Much love,
Luchana