Confused about self inquiry

[Danadd]

What I noticed is kind of hard to describe in words. It’s not really describable. Because really what I tried to see is what’s there when there is no thought. And that’s indescribable because it’s just sort of my experience. I can see how the thoughts add a story to everything by that when they aren’t there, there isn’t a story. There is just… what is. The experience itself. These are very short moments but they have a lot of peace.
I also noticed how I don’t have control over anything and that there’s no control, and no one to control. I noticed this for example while I was singing a song with a lot of words. I was really in the experience and had a moment of no thinking, just singing and I noticed the words just coming out of my mouth, no controller or anyone who made them come. They just did. It was a fascinating little experience.

[Vivien]

Nice.

Now notice that even thoughts are experienced... they are also part of the experience. Not the content, not what they are about, but the thought phenomena themselves.

Aren't thoughts known just the same way as any other part of experience?

When a thought is there, it's known just as much a sensation is known. It's undoubtedly there... it's a small fragment of the wholeness of experience.

The content however, what they try to convey is not there. But the though phenomenon is there.

For example, if there is a thought of Batman... something is going on, isn't it? Something is experienced?
But the question is what is it that is actually experienced? Batman himself, or just a thought phenomenon?

So the thought is experienced, it's here, it's happening, but Batman isn't. Can you see that clearly?

Now what about Dana? When there are thoughts of Dana, something is going on, right?
There is a clear experience of thoughts... but what about Dana? Is there an experience of Dana? Or only thoughts ABOUT Dana, without an actual Dana?

You see, thoughts are not bad. They don't have to go away... they are part of experience just any anything else. We just need to see that the content of thoughts are not actually there,.... those are just mental imaginations and not reality.

[Danadd]

Yes, I see that. Thoughts are just like what I hear or smell etc. they come by themselves like another sense. No one controls what they say, and one of the things that they say is there is a self, me, who makes these thoughts. But that’s not the case. Just because that’s what they’re saying doesn’t mean it’s real at all.

[Vivien]

All right. How do you feel about our inquiry at this point?

Is there anything that is not super clear and you'd like to look at?

Vivien

[Danadd]

It feels really eye-opening. Like things are really starting to be seen from a different perspective than im used to and it’s definitely changes things. It’s still not perfect but I think it’ll take more daily practice to get better at seeing this more and more often and letting it become a bigger part of the way I experience life.
Vivien I really want to thank you so much, you are so dedicated and detail oriented and that is not something I take for granted at all.
Right now I don’t have a question but if something comes up could I ask you? If yes then how?
Again thank you so much,
Dana

[Vivien]

Well, you just write here :)

It’s still not perfect

Who/what wants things to be perfect?

Is there someone here not being satisfied or wanting more?
Or there are thoughts appearing ABOUT someone, but without an actual someone?

Is there a real person present right now wanting more?

Thoughts might 'talk' about more and better and all sorts of stuff, but is there anything else to it other than those thoughts?
And more importantly, for who?

What is it that is not perfect right now, in this very moment?

And now?

And what about this moment?

[Danadd]

Haha you’re right.

Who/what wants things to be perfect?

No one, it was just a thought telling a story, that there is perfect and imperfect, and there is someone who can make it perfect or not :)

Is there someone here not being satisfied or wanting more?

No, there isn’t someone here, just thoughts arising and telling this story. Actually, as I’m writing this, it’s another story. But I have to use some words to try to describe it.

Or there are thoughts appearing ABOUT someone, but without an actual someone?

Yes, exactly.

Is there a real person present right now wanting more?

No, when I look I can’t find a real person here. Just sensations, thoughts, experience.

Thoughts might 'talk' about more and better and all sorts of stuff, but is there anything else to it other than those thoughts?

The thoughts are saying “I want this to be perfect”. But that is only a thought. Because I can’t find the person who is saying this, just a thought. And I can’t find the one who would make this perfect.

And more importantly, for who?

For no one. There isn’t a person here, really, saying this, writing this, thinking this and judging what’s perfect and not. These are just thoughts that arise by themselves and make it seem like it’s all real even though there’s no one here!

What is it that is not perfect right now, in this very moment?

And now?

And what about this moment?

I love this question. What I find is that in this moment, there is no perfect or imperfect. They don’t really exist. They’re the stories of thoughts, but as you said, the thought itself, the phenomena is there in experience but the content isn’t.

[Vivien]

What I find is that in this moment, there is no perfect or imperfect. They don’t really exist. They’re the stories of thoughts, but as you said, the thought itself, the phenomena is there in experience but the content isn’t.

Yes, experience doesn't judge. Judgement or any evaluation only ever exists conceptually.

But that is only a thought. Because I can’t find the person who is saying this, just a thought. And I can’t find the one who would make this perfect.

the self/I cannot be found, or it simply doesn't exist in actuality?

This might seem to be nuanced, but please look into this.

Is there an I other than the word 'I'?

[Danadd]

the self/I cannot be found, or it simply doesn't exist in actuality?

Well, im basing my answers on my own experience, on this moment. And in my experience, the self doesn’t exist. This is what I meant by it can’t be found because it’s not here. I can see that there are thoughts about a self but actually they are just thoughts, and there is no actual I. In this moment.

Is there an I other than the word 'I'?

No, there isn’t.

[Vivien]

Well, im basing my answers on my own experience, on this moment. And in my experience, the self doesn’t exist. This is what I meant by it can’t be found because it’s not here. I can see that there are thoughts about a self but actually they are just thoughts, and there is no actual I. In this moment.

And is there ANY moment when there is an actual self?

the reason why I asked if it cannot be found or it actually doesn't exist is because not being able to found it doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist rather it only cannot be found but it might be lurking somewhere :)

Check again and again and again and more.... if there is any moment when there is an actual self present... at any time.

Let me know how it goes. V

[Danadd]

I checked several times throughout the day, and there was not a moment when I really stopped and looked that there was a self. Sometimes itfeels like there is, when there are thoughts about I. Especially emotions also. But I see that there is no one here controlling anything that happens, no one inside the body feeling the sensations, thinking the thoughts, etc. It all just happens by itself. And the I, Dana, the subject of these thoughts, does not really exist. It’s just a word. It’s not that it can’t be found and it’s somewhere here, it’s just not real.
I do have a question, how do I deal with times when it comes back and I feel really strongly that there is an I and am caught up in these stories? It could be really hard to get out of them when it’s emotional.
Thank you,
Dana

[Vivien]

I do have a question, how do I deal with times when it comes back and I feel really strongly that there is an I and am caught up in these stories? It could be really hard to get out of them when it’s emotional.

Well, that's a different story. The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last until the end of the organism.

For further investigation I usually suggest The Work of Byron Katie and / or the Kiloby Inquiries.

It could be really hard to get out of them when it’s emotional.

But you can look at this:

Is there someone being caught in those thoughts and emotions?

When there is an emotion, who is feeling it? Where is the feeler?

Is there someone / something standing apart from that emotion feeling it?
is there actually a feeler? Or there is only the feeling / emotion free-floating without being anchored to anyone or anything?

Whom is that emotions is happening TO?

Who is caught in it?

Is there someone / something standing apart from that emotion feeling it?


Is there really someone not liking it?

[Danadd]

Thank you for this. They’re good questions to look at for when there is a strong emotion. Did you want me to answer the questions or use them as a guide for myself?
Dana

[Vivien]

Please reply to them.

You can investigate them when there is a strong emotion, and also when there isn't. Since the one that is supposedly feeling it must be present even when there is no emotion triggered.

[Danadd]

After some more investigation this is what I found.

Is there someone being caught in those thoughts and emotions?

No, there isn’t anyone who is caught in the thoughts and emotions. They arise by themselves without someone here to control them, or experience them. They are experienced obviously but no one here who is experiencing them.

When there is an emotion, who is feeling it? Where is the feeler?

There is no feeler, there’s just the feeling itself. The feeling can feel strong sometimes and come with thoughts about the fact that there is a feeler, etc. but these are just thoughts.

Is there someone / something standing apart from that emotion feeling it?

No. The feeling of emotion is not separate from a person feeling it. There is no person feeling it there is just the emotion/experience itself, thoughts about it, etc. without anyone thinking them.

is there actually a feeler? Or there is only the feeling / emotion free-floating without being anchored to anyone or anything?

Yes, exactly. No feeler, just the emotions themselves freely occurring.

Whom is that emotions is happening TO?

There is no one here who it’s happening to. There is no one making it happen or being the one who experiences it, just this experience itself.

Who is caught in it?

There isn’t anyone caught in it because there is no one here. It sometimes seems like there is but the truth is those are also thoughts that arise by themselves that say that, without anyone actually there thinking them.

Is there really someone not liking it?

No, these are thoughts that arise about the situation that make it seem like there’s someone here not liking them when there isn’t really anyone.

Thank you,
Dana