Request to work with Elizabeth

[Elizabeth]

Hi Linda.
Try the touching exercise again. One, two three. Without a label, what is felt?
Please let me know. It's utterly simple, just paying attention to the sensation at end of the finger. In reality, what is felt?
Sensate experience ONLY. What is felt?
Not a non-trivial question.
Love, Elizabeth

[lalla]

Elizabeth, Thoughts/evaluations come so quickly at the touch--cold, smooth, warm, etc --inserting themselves between the experience and the awareness of the experience or is it more apt to say a layer of concept over the experience? Agitated, stuck, frustration, trying too hard? Lots of judging tonight. :-(
The longing (the itch as you call it) is palpable and has been present in this life for as long as I can remember. Feels as though the intellectual knowing gets in the way of the experiential...going to let go and try again in the morning...am watching thoughts spin anew about that proclamation...endless...with a sigh and love, Linda

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth, Thoughts/evaluations come so quickly at the touch--cold, smooth, warm, etc --inserting themselves between the experience and the awareness of the experience or is it more apt to say a layer of concept over the experience? Agitated, stuck, frustration, trying too hard? Lots of judging tonight. :-(
The longing (the itch as you call it) is palpable and has been present in this life for as long as I can remember. Feels as though the intellectual knowing gets in the way of the experiential...going to let go and try again in the morning...am watching thoughts spin anew about that proclamation...endless...with a sigh and love, Linda

Yes, exactly. A snapshot of how it is right now. Sensation, insertion of mental constructions (how would you know it was an arm if you just went by touch?) and conceptual and emotional freight attached.
In reality, sensation of pressure :-) That is it.
Now find the finger, see if it is there except as a construction.
Now find the self that puts together the whirl of thoughts that MUST be attached to every sensation. Is it there?
Now find the world. Is that there? How do you know?

Do you exist?

Love.

[lalla]

Whoa. A wall of fear at the last question. More thoughts/concepts. Still fear.
Start again. Finger-construction, label-get it.
Self-see that there is nowhere “it” is located although sense of “body” still pretty solid...
The world? Mind does not compute. No me to know.
Hovering at the edge?

[Elizabeth]

Whoa. A wall of fear at the last question. More thoughts/concepts. Still fear.
Start again. Finger-construction, label-get it.
Self-see that there is nowhere “it” is located although sense of “body” still pretty solid...
The world? Mind does not compute. No me to know.
Hovering at the edge?

Or just hang out with the fear.
Do you exist?

Love.

[lalla]

Fear of the utter meaninglessness of life...reminded of being told “it’s all dreamlike phenomena,”
The world is a concept too? What about gravity? floating and unmoored... listening watching sense of disembodiment at the same time the body moves as in fingers on the keyboard, as in the expanding and contracting of inhaling and exhaling...sitting ,waiting , watching...

[Elizabeth]

Hi Linda,
Thankfully, the sense of self need not disappear for more than that timeless moment when it's all seen through for what it really is. Mental construction! No need to turn into an amorphous blob, or stay in a special state. Just note the facts. Not at all mystical, really. Sort of deflating to the spiritual seeker.

With some attention, that sense of self is seen to be a construction, imputed from sense of smell, sight, priopercetion ( and so on through the senses) that is then misinterpreted as a self, a center of sensation that must somehow exist as an separate and localized entity. Which you can't seem to find, in reality. All thought.
Seeing (through your self)) that the separate self is an illusion, that's the foot in the door of enlightenment :-) And we move on from that, of course, change and impermanence also seen as time wears on.
Sometimes the initial shift is slow and soft, sometimes it's an explosion.
Only you can tell me when it has happened.
I'd review choice, doership, and sensation a few times, to nail it. Any one choosing, or doing? In reality, when you look and before the thoughts tack the story of I onto direct perception. Typing, as you say, is a great example. Fingers really need an I? An 'I' is surprised at what comes out of the fingers/keyboard/screen thing :-) ?

So, do you exist?

Much love, Elizabeth

[lalla]

Dear Elizabeth,

I feel so frustrated. Either the shift is so slow and soft it’s not being recognized or it hasn’t happened.

One thing I’ve noticed is that I have been on edge and easily irritated of late. This is not in character for me and I wonder if it’s part of this process? Here’s an example. My husband just called from school (a business we own/operate together) wondering where a key I had hidden might be. A tidal wave of irritation arose at him for simply calling (poor guy) and at myself for not being able to remember where it was hidden right away. I’m thinking that there would be a lot less investment/irritation on my part if a shift had occurred...

Choice, doership, and sensation...will spend the day amid the chaos of a visit from grandkids and see what is observed...

Can’t begin to express the gratitude arising for your patience through this process.
Much love,
Linda

[lalla]

A late night P.S.
Here’s some backtracking. Watched a documentary on happiness this evening. One of the subjects addressed was loving kindness meditation...there is intention there and it changes the activity in the brain...how is that different from these fingers typing out words to express thoughts?
too much thinking...even though I can see there is no doer it appears a choice is being made to send loving kindness (or to come to this board).
running in circles.

[lalla]

PPS Copied and pasted from another conversation (jeffdibeck?) in response to the PS above...
"You aren't the thinker. Thinking just happens. You might have the thought "I want to think about mountains" and then you do, so you think you have an I all of the sudden. But you don't, you had a thought, and a thought gave birth to another thought. There wasn't any I involved. It just happened because of past circumstances leading up to now."
Okay, not running in circles. I'm clear I don't exist, but I don't remember that all day long, and I'm waiting for more signs of a shift. Going to sleep on this. Love to you...

[Elizabeth]

Hi Linda.
Jeff answered the question, Very good to go find some answers.
He pointed back to thought.
Intention is a thought, having more thoughts about intentions ramifies and enhances the thought. Adds story, emotion, and belief. I understand they pave the road to hell :-)
More explanations in thought, about thought.
Real world and world in thought.
There is duality.
In life, a grandmother goes to pick up the fallen child, without a single thought about compassion and kindness.
That comes after. In thoughts ABOUT the action. We need not intend to be kind. I notice that it's a movement all it's own.
Making tea is a movement all of it's own, too. Putting in the laundry, opening the fridge. Is it a you, or is the noticing just along for the ride? If you put focus on the movement, rather than pay attention to that rather desperate narrative, can the movement be clearer?
Mopping up after the kids is a movement, complaining about them is a movement (LOL, probably highly automated after raising a family) and notice that they are not a you. Just life, moving along.
Quite awesome.
Love, Linda, have a good day.

[lalla]

Elizabeth,
In many ways it has been a good day and yet no shift. Lots of attention to movement and seeing how thoughts follow; sometimes just attention to movement and not the thoughts that followed, sometimes just pleasure in the peace and quiet of the day -- more watching and waiting.
This evening have been indulging in LU videos and audios. Discouraging to hear one month as the “long time to see” knowing this conversation has gone on longer than that...just one more thought...and very frustrating to see it but not get it viscerally. thoughts about what’s wrong with me, what am I doing wrong, etc. etc. All those thoughts serving to reinforce/invest in that belief in I, hmmm. Any help in pulling the rug out from under my habitual view is appreciated. Most gratefully yours with love, Linda

[Elizabeth]

I keep seeing that expectations of (thoughts about) awakening are here. It's for others, the pure and fast and really smart ones.
What IF, Linda, the perpetual 'seeking and not finding' machine that keeps an I spinning, were to stop?
Would you die? Would others hurt you? What would happen?
Lay out the worst case, world-ending scenario for us. And then enter it fully. Hold no fear back. Write it all down. Look at it.
Love, Elizabeth

[lalla]

Elizabeth, I think you’re right about the fear. I remember huge resistance to writing about it when you brought it up before...because, really, from at least one view...and I know there are many...(that last line comes out of fear...wanting to cover all my bases...must keep all the people happy all the time and a real fear of commitment to a course of action coming from not wanting to miss out/keeping my options open) it is fear that runs my life. (Hope you were able to follow that meandering.)

Fear also manifests in editing while I write which I will try to avoid this evening. It’s a fear of revealing myself which is funny to think about while being here on a site trying to rid myself of the delusion of I and my specialness. So all that just to get started.

What if Linda were to stop? I’d have to give up my story...it’s so complicated. :-0 And I’m sooo invested in it. Would I just stop running the school? What about all the students? How would I feel about my family? Would we be less connected? Would I let them down and not be there when “needed”...oh my...another part of me is thinking how pathetic this is. I do know that the world would go on just fine (somehow:) if I were to literally die...

back to focusing on the fear...would I just flake out and let people down? (I’m so important/what I do is so important...hmmmm) The story wouldn’t be important anymore? All the reasons would go down the drain. I might just sit around and do nothing and not care... which sounds more like depression than waking up.

(nonsequitur that arose out of ???) Can’t tell you the number of nights I have stayed up way too late, often at the computer, thinking somehow the answer to life was just around the corner or in the computer...(maybe it is?;-)

More fear...The world as I know it will end...that’s a big one. What does that mean? I did walk out of one life many years ago; I can’t bear the thought (ha! now there’s a concept!) of doing it again. Oh my! These are all thoughts building a story on each other just like the story of I.

Another version of the fear... can I do this? I’m so easily distracted by the busyness of life, by conversations and personal interactions. I don’t REMEMBER enough. I’m not trying hard enough, etc. etc.(fear of not "getting it" ala est way back in the 70's?) Hope this isn’t too incoherent. Long and busy day, exhausted and going to bed.

Love, Linda

[Elizabeth]

Awesome. Now we are getting past the polite Linda :-) Whew.
Love all the reasons not to do this. Your reasons are right! We don't know where this leap into the unknown will take us. Shit could happen!
There is no earthly reason to do it. Yet here we both apparently are.
Sounds like 'you' are a very responsible person. Do you think that this very tired responsible person wants this adventure enough to make a little room for it? What would that mean?
Suggest you take a look at these fears/thoughts/beliefs and see what would happen next if they were not believed.
And then do it.
This might mean letting go of a few things in the short term. Like now, even. Doesn't need to be forever, that's just another fear thought, projecting into the future.
Interested to see where this goes next, could be that great adventure. Love to you, Brave and Puissant Linda!