My journey into realization

[KingGong]

Hi

Of course. Take your time. Got a bit carried a way..

Thank you!


Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi again,

No worries.

After reading, particularly your last tranche of answers , there are several questions that I could ask, But actually, taking your replies as a whole, there are just two important questions that cover all bases. Here they are:

Can you say with a big fat "yes" that the illusion of "self" is seen, beyond shadow of a doubt?
(If there's any doubt please say. I realise that I didn't ask you this before).

Would you be willing to answer these six questions all over again but this time not from ideas or intellectualisation but entirely from direct experience? Thats to say not from inference or theory or or thinking but only from what can be seen to be going on / not going on in the moment? Thank you

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

Can you say with a big fat "yes" that the illusion of "self" is seen, beyond shadow of a doubt?
(If there's any doubt please say. I realize that I didn't ask you this before).

I'm sorry. I thought I got "it". But I don't think I get it anymore. There is still doubt. This doesn't feel like home or as wonderous as it should. I feel like a fly banging my head against the window, and someone has to open the window for me, I don't know where to fly.
Is it fear? I don't know? Probably. But I cant find any fear. And it doesn't make any sense that my parents are not real. Just doesn't make sense.

1)

No.

2)

It is identification with thoughts and feelings. It feels like a doer that sees objects and talks with other separate human beings. Thoughts and feelings feel less personal. They are not owned. Humans still feel like strangers to me.

3)
Less fixation. More clarity. Less thought loops.

4)
I don't know. Same as last answer. I also remember reading somewhere on the forum that the content of a thought is always a new thought. Thoughts are always directly experienced, like the 5 senses. This make sense. But did it push me over?

5) a)
Decision is based on a pull. It feels automatic. Its not real. There are no actual decisions when you look closer.
Intention is more like a gut feeling. Prior to decision. It is "slower".
Free will is the freedom from bondage. Freedom from identification and feeling like a doer.
Choice is what seems like options you can decide on.
Control is what you feel when things are going according to your expectations, intentions and hopes.

[KingGong]

5 a)

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Everything happens and I cant find anything that makes it happen. By going the path of least resistance? (Until I was created;)

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work

I never planned or knew what to reply to you. Even if I did the writing and answers would be spontanious and fresh. The mind try to make a timeline of things, but there is no real timeline, just a story of a timeline. Same goes for everything else I guess.


b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Nothing at all. This is totally irresponsible, ha. Ha. But not in an attitude sort of way. But in a fundamental way, I am not responsible for this or anything. This one is pretty obvious, how could I be responsible if there is no one here?

This time I didnt think about my answers (at least tried not to), and I wrote what I felt was true, without looking and analyzing too much, and without correcting my initial answers too much.


Wish you a lovely day


Torgeir

[KingGong]

5 a)

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Everything happens and I cant find anything that makes it happen. By going the path of least resistance? (Until I was created;)

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work

I never planned or knew what to reply to you. Even if I did the writing and answers would be spontanious and fresh. The mind try to make a timeline of things, but there is no real timeline, just a story of a timeline. Same goes for everything else I guess.


b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Nothing at all. This is totally irresponsible, ha. Ha. But not in an attitude sort of way. But in a fundamental way, I am not responsible for this or anything. This one is pretty obvious, how could I be responsible if there is no one here?

This time I didnt think about my answers (at least tried not to), and I wrote what I felt was true, without looking and analyzing too much, and without correcting my initial answers too much.


Wish you a lovely day


Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. I'm sorry. I thought I got "it". But I don't think I get it anymore. There is still doubt. This doesn't feel like home or as wonderous as it should

That's perfectly OK. This does often happen. It's possible to yo-yo between what seems like clarity and considerable doubt and this happens to a lot of people, especially at the beginning. It tends to smooth out over time.

But it's good that this exposed the expectation of something that is supposed to be 'more wonderous'. Whilst it is expected that no self should necessarily feel wonderous' or even like 'home', is it clear why this will probably not be the experience? In not expecting it to appear as these it allows room for what cannot be predicted, but which is actually happening, this moment.

. I feel like a fly banging my head against the window, and someone has to open the window for me, I don't know where to fly.
Is it fear? I don't know?

Perhaps. Fear can be an issue. What would the fear be about? The analogy you have given is symbolic. Is there away to look at this fear so as to say what it is about without using analogy?

. And it doesn't make any sense that my parents are not real. Just doesn't make sense.

Ok I see what you are saying. But has anyone said that your parents are "not real"? This is a misunderstanding about no self. No self is not the same as "nothing" or "not real" (though many imagine that this is it.). It doesn't mean that things are not happening. It's to do with seeing that there is no inherent , fixed, unchanging, separate self-nature.

Is the water we label "a river" a fixed entity? It can be IMAGINED to be so. But where is "the river" actually ? Is the water that flows along the same tomorrow as it was yesterday? Or even the next second? It's the mind that insists on objectifying and fixing an entity, "river" ,"me","parents,".

(Notice that these are all nouns. Nouns suggest unchanging objects with fixed reality)

Heraclitus the Greek Philosopher saw this when he said "I do not place my leg in the same river twice" .

That's probably enough for now. Let me know how it's going?

With love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi Jon

But it's good that this exposed the expectation of something that is supposed to be 'more wonderous'. Whilst it is expected that no self should necessarily feel wonderous' or even like 'home', is it clear why this will probably not be the experience? In not expecting it to appear as these it allows room for what cannot be predicted, but which is actually happening, this moment

Yes. Very good, thank you. This will propably not be the experience because my interpretation of ‘home’ and ‘wonderous’ is not the direct experience, and can only be pointers of something I am ‘used’ to.

Perhaps. Fear can be an issue. What would the fear be about? The analogy you have given is symbolic. Is there away to look at this fear so as to say what it is about without using analogy?

I was sitting trying to feel what I am afraid of. It turned into a long list of statements that felt good to write. I am afraid this looks more like a therapy session than looking into thruth, so I am not sure if you think it is helpful to describe the fears or if this is off topic:
I am afraid I am missing opportunities in life but I do understand that there is not really opportunities if you are not able to take them
I am afraid to iniate talk to people
I am afraid to be fussy or cause disharmony to people
I am afraid people misinterpret me
I am afraid people se me as fake
I am afraid I am wasting my talent and career opportunities
I am afraid I am not having fun and enjoying life as I could be doing
I am afraid that my behaviour and a few toxic people from the last 5-10 years have trauma bonded me, abused me too such an extent that my reputation, career and soscial life is damaged
I am afraid I have actually helped the persons that have been toxic with me, and that I am still helping them every time a nagging, angry thought and feeling comes up from those memories, which I have to go through alone for the nth time
I am afraid I should talk to someone about these people and these situations and their harmful behaviour, but that I missed the opportunity when I was to weak and confused to see the gaslighting
I am afraid I never will fulfill my potential
I am afraid I am living in an unfair world and I cant do anything about it.
I am afraid «bad» people will read this and use this or other information about me against me
I am afraid I have missed a large part of my life (I am 34), having fun being soscial, getting long lasting friends, a career, and a partner and family
I am afraid that was my destiny
I am afraid I am making you irritated by all this
I am afraid I am «using» your time and energy with all these sentences
I am afraid I am not able to inqure deep enough
I am afraid that if I complain about things in my life like these things, that somehow life will punish me
I am afraid that I am dragging my self through life and will end up in a mental hospital if I dont manage to get help

I also see that these fears can be seen as priviliged in comparison with the challenges and fears other people struggle with.
When I look closer, I seem to be living a pretty decent life after all. Excuse me if this was way too much information.

Thank you for helping me with the river example. I see it more clearly now. The direct experience is true no matter what labels and descriptions I use to explain it. Those are only fixed pointers to something that is always changing.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir,

Let me assure you that it is my pleasure to be trying to help you with your inquiry. I'm not in the least impatient with you. I have the utmost respect for how you have been approaching this whole inquiry.

I'm not going to address many of the particular fears you mention. It strikes me that it may be worth talking about traumatic experiences to someone that might be able to advise or counsel?. Not to make light of any of the anxieties you've mentioned but perhaps some of them are speculations about what might happen or what might be the case...but probably won't and isn't?

Also "I" always seems to have problems. Or put another way, the imagined self has loads of imagined problems. Put another way, there can bea lot of thoughts ABOUT problems. These all seem to point back to a. "me".

. I am afraid I am not able to inqure deep enough

My impression is that you do and can. But sometimes moments of fear can turn up during the inquiry and if it isn't addressed there can seem to be "something wrong" , doubts and niggles. So if you have specific anxiety about looking at no self please let me know?. Some people have to acknowledge a fear of looking directly at no self before finding away to relax. Usually that relaxing allows them to see that there is no self .


Love and best wishes

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

Its always a pleasure to read your responses. Thank you.

It strikes me that it may be worth talking about traumatic experiences to someone that might be able to advise or counsel?.

Yes, I think I will try that.

Not to make light of any of the anxieties you've mentioned but perhaps some of them are speculations about what might happen or what might be the case...but probably won't and isn't?

Yes. Absolutely. There seem to have been very much speculation going on. A very clever "me" that can create problems out of nowhere or a niggle or doubt somewhere.

My impression is that you do and can. But sometimes moments of fear can turn up during the inquiry and if it isn't addressed there can seem to be "something wrong" , doubts and niggles. So if you have specific anxiety about looking at no self please let me know?. Some people have to acknowledge a fear of looking directly at no self before finding away to relax. Usually that relaxing allows them to see that there is no self .

I don't have any specific anxiety looking at no self I am aware of. But I might be uncertain about where to look sometimes to see if there is a self/no self. No self sounds very appealing to me from all the stories or direct interviews of people that have awakened. Where or what do I look at when I am looking directly at no self? I do inquiries sometimes, like asking "Who am I?", "Where am I" and "What am I?", but neither an answer or specific anxiety seem to come up.



Love and best wishes

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. A very clever "me" that can create problems out of nowhere or a niggle or doubt somewhere.

But what is the "me"? Is there an actual thinker of thoughts that constitutes a real "me"? Or are there simply many thoughts that refer to an imagined entity so that there is a more or less unconscious assumption that the imagined entity is "really there". ?

. No self sounds very appealing to me from all the stories or direct interviews of people that have awakened.

The unfortunate side of that is that all the words make it sound as though its s thing, an experience. Even that it's "like this" or "like that".. people inevitably wax lyrical so it sounds as though there's some kind of experience that a self could have. That's the only way we can think of it until somehow it is seen that nothing could ever describe it. Description itself is a kind of noise. No self is not about anything. It just is.

. Where or what do I look at when I am looking directly at no self? I do inquiries sometimes, like asking "Who am I?", "Where am I" and "What am I?", but neither an answer or specific anxiety seem to come up.

That's quite interesting anyway.

You've been doing what's necessary. But questions phrased as "who am I" are potentially confusing
because there's a built-in assumption of an actual "who" (entity) that "I am". "What am I"? Is better.


Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

But what is the "me"? Is there an actual thinker of thoughts that constitutes a real "me"? Or are there simply many thoughts that refer to an imagined entity so that there is a more or less unconscious assumption that the imagined entity is "really there". ?

The thinker of thoughts is indeed an illusion, no matter what the thoughts say. It is exactly as you describe. An imagined entity.

Thoughts about things and the usual narratives, speculations, memories, seem to come in when I inquire. The unconscious assumption seem to be even happening when I am inquiring, or specially when I am inquiring, sometimes not remembering that I am inquiring when I put on the timer for 20 min. I seem to have been inquiruing in a somewhat forced way with varying genuine interest in the questions. But sometimes there is just stillness, or breath, sensations in body. It feels very difficult to do this in a helpful way, but difficult things also tend to be a good sign of progress sometimes.

I have been doing «what is Mu» the last two weeks. «What am I?» seems a good idea and not as easy to identify with as «who» as you mentioned as well. I could answer the question already now. «I» is a thought. A thought that points to a body, brain, a doer, and a history. If it is more to it than that it will be surprising. Still, it feels like a familiar thought, and something that seem to have extra baggage (narratives, speculation, identification..) with it, like I am addicted to it. what if I could see it in the same way as I notice a cloud or even a thunder storm? Something impersonal. That would be freeing.

I sometimes get the feeling that talking and writing about this is like a never ending loop, in the end I am repeating the same things. It is in fact as simple as you describe it. Description itself is a kinda of noise as you point out. This is becoming clearer for every week even though I cant help it, it seems. I get in contact with an experienceless state from time to time, its a kind of natural meditation not fixating on anything. Just the 5 senses without the labels. And then there is the thoughts and feelings of course that makes this very familiar or fixed. This is what is felt as an unconcious assumption I think.


Love and light

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

I'll probably post again later but felt like asking you this:

This is becoming clearer for every week even though I cant help it, it seems

Or could it be that whatever makes thoughts appear can't help it, (but 'you' are not doing the thoughts?)

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

Or could it be that whatever makes thoughts appear can't help it, (but 'you' are not doing the thoughts?)

Yes, and that is also what seems to be experienced.

Cheers

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. I seem to have been inquiring in a somewhat forced way with varying genuine interest in the questions

Good to notice this. There's no need to force things and it won't really help. Of course a preparedness to look honestly is important but don't worry about varying interest. Not all questions will be equally helpful. Some probably will.

. But sometimes there is just stillness, or breath, sensations in body.

Very good.

. It feels very difficult to do this in a helpful way, but difficult things also tend to be a good sign of progress sometimes

Well, we have been looking at who "does" things. Can such an inquiry be said to be "done," ? If so who or what is the doer of inquiry?

There is the appearance of something that ,"does" inquiry. But what's actually going on?

Love and best wishes

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi Jon

This is nice to read.

Well, we have been looking at who "does" things. Can such an inquiry be said to be "done," ? If so who or what is the doer of inquiry?

I understand what you mean. No, it cant be "done". Where and when is the inquiry even starting and ending? When I put on the timer? What about other times when I am asking my self "What am I?", is the inquiry done when there is no answer?
This is all imagined, and the only time an inquiry happens is when it happens, no one doing it. Just happening by itself.

There is the appearance of something that ,"does" inquiry. But what's actually going on?

What's actually going on is simply an inquire. A word-thought. A question that is noticed. It feels like, "Now I am going to do it", but that is part of the story of the me, which is also happening by itself. A plan and a schedule, like to do the inquiring in the morning, supports the narrative it seems. It gives the "me" something to do and it feels intended. The "me" is imagined to be the voice in the head doing the inquire, but nothing can be found behind that voice. Even when I sit down to inquiry, it seems like the "me" prepare itself for the voice to come. That which prepares is also just happening. No one can be found doing it, despite feeling like something I am doing, just as it feels like I am writing these words. In the end writing just happens. Reasoning, preparing and inquiring just happens. The "me" that can be drawn as a red line through those activities is just another thought. It stops here.


With love and gratitude

Torgeir