Confused about self inquiry

[Danadd]

Hi Vivien,
I tried doing it for the last few days, but it’s very counterintuitive. It’s not coming naturally especially when I’m with other people. But I have done it also where I sit and do it for ten minutes only this and that’s had some more success. There are moments when it’s clearer and it’s interesting to notice. It’s a different type of seeing than usual.
Dana

[Vivien]

Yes... that 'different type of seeing' is that state where real inquiry can happen.

So, is there control over anything at all?

How you can look at this question is to see whatever is happening each moment, if there is a control over that, or it's just happening on its own. And we are not analyzing it, or rationalizing it. Rather we check if there is control over that or not.

Isn't everything, literally everything happening on its own?

The heart beats on its own.
the digestion happens on its own.
thoughts appear on their own.
decision just happens on its own.
body is moving on its own.
Talking is happening on its own.
emotions happen on their own.
Dissatisfaction happens on its own.
smile happens on its own.
Fear, sadness, anger happen on their own.
Contentment, happiness, joy also just happen on their own.

what is not happening on its own? Is there anything?
Or everything is just flowing, changing freely, like the wind?

V

[Danadd]

Yes. I see that. It’s amazing when I do see it.

[Vivien]

OK, so look at this again and again and again and bit more :) as often as possible. Aim for 100+ times a day, even if just for 5 seconds.

Is there anything that doesn't happen automatically? Anything at all?

V

[Danadd]

There is no one doing anything, no one to be in control and make things happen. Everything happens automatically. Thoughts come up and my hand types what the thoughts say, automatically. My leg moves without anyone deciding it’ll move, sometimes with a thought that pops in before and sometimes not. And there are many, many thoughts about “me” but really without anyone there thinking them, they are just happening!
I don’t see it all the time but I feel I have much more of an ability to all of a sudden become aware of it and it’s amazing. It’s quite freeing.

[Danadd]

Is there anything that doesn't happen automatically? Anything at all?

I don’t think so, not that I can see.

[Vivien]

You've done a really nice inquiry :)

Now, look at this:

Is there an I having a body?
is there an I feeling the body?

Is there a personal I in reality in any shape or form?

[Danadd]

Thank you :)

Is there an I having a body?

No, I can’t find one. I was going to write that the body isn’t alive but actually I meant that… every part of this body is alive, but there is no “one” that is the owner or the controller of it… it does everything by itself! The body is material… just like any other thing, like this bed! There is no one who is the owner of it. It’s just here.

is there an I feeling the body?

No, there is no I feeling the body. There’s just the feelings themselves arising in… something. They’re just… here. The feeling of the towel touching my finger. Just that.

[Vivien]

The feeling of the towel touching my finger. Just that.

Let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

The feeling of the towel touching my finger.

How many feelings/sensations are there in experience? One for the skin, and another sensation for touching or for the texture?

with eyes closes, is there even an experience of a towel?

Are there two separate sensations, or only thoughts and mental images suggest a finger + towel, one touching the other?

[Danadd]

Can it be known how tall the body is?

This is very interesting. My initial response was… no, but I know where is starts and ends. And then I realized that I was visualizing my body instead of experiencing it. And when I just experienced, I noticed that no I can’t know how tall it is or where my head starts and feet end, really. All I can experience is sensations which are all in the same space of awareness, they don’t have a physical location in relation to the space around me.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Hmm… it feels like it does. But when I look more closely I can’t find it. It’s all just sensations.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, it doesn’t.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No, it’s all there together. All just my experience. The feeling of the clothes touching the body is the same as the feeling of my body without clothes in the sense that they’re all in my awareness the same way.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Again, just another sensation in my experience. There isn’t a boundary in my immediate experience between them. There is just the feelings of the body, touching the mattress. But these words and definitions “body touching the mattress” actually don’t exist in the experience. I just can’t describe it with words.

Is there an inside or an outside?

Again I find that I am picturing my body instead of experiencing it. And putting labels on it. I know some feelings are from the inside and some are outside but when I really just feel I find that again they’re all just different sensations but the same, they’re all there all the time. So just from my experience I can’t find an inside and outside.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

I guess it refers to this physical body, organs. And in terms of experience its the physical sensations that are in my experience.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It seems it is many sensations all at once that appear in my awareness.

How many feelings/sensations are there in experience? One for the skin, and another sensation for touching or for the texture?

Actually now that you ask this question I’m starting to think it’s all just one sensation… because I can’t really tell where one starts and ends. That’s the thing I was saying before but it’s clearer now that all these sensations are happening all at once, and they’re always there together, in my experience. One experience, each and every moment. So there aren’t many, there is just this experience which includes an experience of the body. Just one sensation in experience.
But I can focus on a specific sensation only and then it seems like there’s only it… so I’m a bit confused.

with eyes closes, is there even an experience of a towel?

No, just one feeling.

Are there two separate sensations, or only thoughts and mental images suggest a finger + towel, one touching the other?

Yes definitely the second option. I wasn’t aware there are so many thoughts even in regards to the body!

Thank you,
Dana

[Vivien]

You did a really nice inquiry :)

With the body, almost all the time there is a mental image of the body, and all the information is derived from that, not from what is actually there on the felt level.

And when we don't see the image to be just a visual thought, we actually believe that there is inside and outside, all the that stuff we looked at.

Actually now that you ask this question I’m starting to think it’s all just one sensation… because I can’t really tell where one starts and ends. That’s the thing I was saying before but it’s clearer now that all these sensations are happening all at once, and they’re always there together, in my experience. One experience, each and every moment. So there aren’t many, there is just this experience which includes an experience of the body. Just one sensation in experience.
But I can focus on a specific sensation only and then it seems like there’s only it… so I’m a bit confuse

Let's do another experiment.

Put on of your hand onto a table, palm down, and close your eyes.

Now focus on FEELING the hand. Ignore all mental images, and go along with feeling only.

Now shift you focus on feeling the area where the palm is touching the table, the so called contact area.
If you don't consult with thoughts and mental images, is there any knowledge of touching?
Or there is only a sensation... and only thoughts call it 'hand' and 'table' and one touching the other?

now, shift the focus back feeling the hand only.
And than back to the so called 'contact' area.

is that 'contact sensation' is not the sensation of the hand?
is there a separate sensation for contact and another for the hand?
or the contact IS the hand sensation? The same sensation?

There might be differences in the sensation, but is there actually two?
Are there two sensations close to each other?
or we are talking about the same sensation, only ONE, and only thoughts divide them into 2?

[Danadd]

Thank you!

If you don't consult with thoughts and mental images, is there any knowledge of touching?
Or there is only a sensation... and only thoughts call it 'hand' and 'table' and one touching the other?

There are thoughts interpreting it but really when there aren’t any thoughts there is just that one feeling. No hand and no mattress (I used a mattress).
It’s very clear, when thoughts aren’t there that that’s the case.

is that 'contact sensation' is not the sensation of the hand?

They’re the same. Just one sensation.

is there a separate sensation for contact and another for the hand?
or the contact IS the hand sensation? The same sensation?

There is no separation, it only seems like there is when there’s a thought, which is there most of the time. But there isn’t.

There might be differences in the sensation, but is there actually two?

It just seems that it’s all in my awareness all the time, the sensation of my body is always here and there’s just one of it. What is happening in the present moment and what I’m experiencing in this moment. When I shift my attention to somewhere in my body it seems like it’s a different sennsation than the other but its not like that, there’s just one sensation that’s always here.

Are there two sensations close to each other?

When I look in my present experience, no.

or we are talking about the same sensation, only ONE, and only thoughts divide them into 2?

Yes.

[Vivien]

Nice investigation.

There is no separation, it only seems like there is when there’s a thought, which is there most of the time. But there isn’t.

Yes. so although thought talks about separate objects, but that thought never ever actually have an impact on what is actually happening. It has no power to make things separate in reality. It's just 'talking' AS IF.... can you see that clearly?

Now, spend a whole day looking at this, for short moments, as frequently as possible.

Pause for a moment and check:

thoughts might suggest separation, is there any division / separation right now?
What is / could be separate from what?

is there a me/I separate from life happening?

Is there an observer or witness separate from the observed / witnessed?

[Danadd]

Yes. so although thought talks about separate objects, but that thought never ever actually have an impact on what is actually happening. It has no power to make things separate in reality. It's just 'talking' AS IF.... can you see that clearly?

Yes it’s clear. When there are no thoughts, there is no separation… it’s just a story.

thoughts might suggest separation, is there any division / separation right now?

The thoughts suggest separation. A self, Dana. Who has feelings, feel all these sensations like my hand touching the blanket. But in my experience there is no me that I can find that feels something else. There is just the experience itself in which there isn’t a “blanket” also. Just the feeling. I noticed this as I was swimming with the feeling of the water: it’s just that experience itself. The water touching my skin is not there in experience. I just feel what is.
I noticed this with sounds and seeing too. It’s all my experience and there isn’t anyone that’s having my experience. My experience and me are the same thing. When there are no thoughts this is clear.

What is / could be separate from what?

Thoughts say there’s objects, and different sensations, and a self, etc. but I can’t find that in my experience.

is there a me/I separate from life happening?

No! There is just what is my experience. No I that is experiencing it, just the experience.

Is there an observer or witness separate from the observed / witnessed?

No… the observing is what’s observed. It’s one thing, just what is!

This is very weird… XD

have a great day,
Dana

[Vivien]

Nice inquiry :)

The thoughts suggest separation. A self, Dana. Who has feelings, feel all these sensations like my hand touching the blanket. But in my experience there is no me that I can find that feels something else. There is just the experience itself in which there isn’t a “blanket” also. Just the feeling. I noticed this as I was swimming with the feeling of the water: it’s just that experience itself. The water touching my skin is not there in experience. I just feel what is.
I noticed this with sounds and seeing too. It’s all my experience and there isn’t anyone that’s having my experience. My experience and me are the same thing. When there are no thoughts this is clear.

Now notice this:

experience is just happening.... there are sensations, sounds, tastes, thoughts, feelings, thoughts of decisions, actions.... ALL happen on their own.... and thoughts are like soundtracks or subtitles of a movie, they create a NARRATIVE ABOUT what is happening, implying that there is a person there HAVING all those experiences.

so thoughts give meaning and context... it ADDS ownership where there isn't, it ADDS doership where there isn't, it ADDS a person where there isn't :)

Look into this and notice what you find.