Requesting a guide.

[IainB]

you need to be super clear that seeing no self will not undo the core trauma that is governing your life

I don't know how to become more clear on this. I'm not convinced that it a core trauma governing my life.

Sometimes this work moves beyond even the standard dissatisfaction of generalised seeking and for a moment feels deeply oppressive. More than just a stone unturned to reveal an unexamined simple secret of life, and instead it feels like a malignant task that festers when procrastinated over and not addressed. Or at the very least there is a wish to push it away.

But I already know that it's not just another task to be ticked off, a one off achievement that is recognsed then moved on from, but of course a cultural change within life where there is looking/knowing built in to the now.

So it is frustrating when there has not been looking, for a day, or a week. The questions are simple, the ways to answer them have been established, the answers are available and the possiblity that they may facilitate a shift or seeing through while ungrasped at what that may look like or be, nonetheless remains entertained as a possibility.

Now, look for the one that doesn't feel good right now. Where is the one not feeling good?

Really it's about that core sensation. At the centre of the being. Not that any being is found but there is both core sensations, and thoughts, and an ever changing and evolving environment that is bounced off. The 'looker' looking out from the body is reluctant to not be, as if any re-evaluation of the looker is a threat that puts it at risk. The one not feeling good may be vague, but is seemingly here.

Where is the one who/what is not OK right now?

'Life' is found. Change (or at the very least a seeming 'flow' of colour). Sensations, sounds and thoughts seemingly move too, or at the very least 'are'. I think I will lump in smells and especially taste with sensation to keep things simple. There does seem to be a 'knowing', some sort of alert aliveness that has no need of thought to be aware. There can be sensations + thoughts about 'ok' or 'not okay'. These are known. I don't know what else to come up with or say.

Where is the one that wishes to feel good?

I wonder sometimes if I perpetuate seeking as some form of self-imposed punishment linked to a fundamental disgruntlement with life. I suppose this is just an interpretation, a way of trying to understand how I have ended up here trying to answer seemingly impossible questions. In DE I look now and see there is colour, sensation, sound, there are thoughts about Ian. There is nothing to get.

Thanks,

[IainB]

we are looking for the one that feels

Sensation is clearly known. No separate character stands out though, in addition to sensation.

for the one that wants something else, like feeling something else (better, happy, good)....

Wanting something else is clearly experienced. It seems built into life, a frequent uncomfortable movement. These thoughts and sensations are distinct. I can't grasp and exhibit the one though.

[Vivien]

Hi Ian,

thank you for your replies.

I don't know how to become more clear on this. I'm not convinced that it a core trauma governing my life.

Well, it's almost impossible to grow up and have no trauma. We all have. We are just unconscious of it. Therefore we are not seeing that it's governing our life. But that's a different topic. The reason I'm mentioning is because most of the unpleasant emotions (all the ones that repeatedly come up), comes from unconscious emotional wounds (traumas). Traumas are not always big things, it could be small things, but significant ones for us. For example, as a child, my parent was late to pick me up from kindergarten or school. that can create an emotional wound of being afraid of left behind, or being alone, or something similar. Or if my parents were busy or stressed because of something and they couldn't pay attention to me, the unconscious conclusion could be that I am not good enough, I don't matter, I'm not lovable, etc. These patterns are hiding in the mind and the body, and get triggered even by small things in our daily lives. For example, my spouse doesn't pay attention to what I'm saying which can trigger the belief that I'm not good enough, or I'm not cared for, etc. I might not be aware that a core wound is being activated, I'm actually convinced that the other doesn't care about me :)

these things are unlikely to go away by seeing that there is no personal self. Since these believes are activating the idea of a personal self. these needs to be worked through later. The reason I'm mentioning this is because most people expect these to go away when seeing no self. I expected that. And if I expect that I will measure what I see against all the emotional pains and discomfort that are triggered in daily life, believing that seeing no self means no trigger any more. No unpleasant feelings any more. No fears of being left alone, or not loved. No appearance of personhood any more.

The 'looker' looking out from the body is reluctant to not be

Well, this 'looker looking out from the body' IS the belief in the separate self. This what needs to be looked at.

WHERE is this looker EXACTLY in the body?
Search through the whole body, pay attention particularly to the head and the chest, and find the exact location that seem to be the residence of a looker. Where is that location in the body?

And about being reluctant to not to be... what is this reluctance about? - this is not an inquiry question, but rather looking deeply into the beliefs you have about negative consequences to this inquiry.

What is it that you think, what could happen if it turned out that there is no actual person looking out the body?

[IainB]

if I expect that I will measure what I see against emotional pains and discomfort...triggered in daily life...seeing no self means no trigger any more. No unpleasant feelings any more. No fears of being left alone, or not loved. No appearance of personhood any more.

Yes. I do feel that I need to go deeper still in knowing that seeing means no change whatsoever in volume and frequency of pain and discomfort, same triggers present, same emotions and fears. Same self presented in thought. Also being in the sway of positive emotions where forgetting occurs for some hours and it is believed Ian is here and experiencing happiness.

I feel that if I enquire, and really genuinely know this, it will facilitate seeing. As though all hopes of a 'benefit' and 'advantage' to seeing are completely put to one side. Quite hard to really really do this as the wish to resolve and evade pain, and accept that seeing will disappear entirely at times and not be firmly 'kept' goes deep and may have both a conscious and a rather large unconscious influence.

It's almost tempting to cultivate that seeing will be unpleasant and traumatic to see what happens (and release expectation), but of course there's no one to do such a thing and it is counterintuitive to deepen trauma when I already have a pretty generic swing of positive and negative experience throughout the day.

WHERE is this looker EXACTLY in the body?

Easy. It is located as a half sphere that extends immediately behind the eyes and cheekbones and mouth to a maximum depth of 3' into the head. It is alive. It is me.

However, as I enquire and write an alarm bell goes off in thought: 'that's a story based upon the sensations in the head and the vividness of colour'. 'That is not quite right'. This is real.

And about being reluctant to not to be... what is this reluctance about?

There is nowhere left to look and now it must be seen that the character I was stuck to and had to keep alive may not be, may be lost, may disappear. I know you have guided lots that this isn't so but there are still some visceral deep experiences similar to this.


Even the bare conscious most basic me, that knows the character and fears its possible loss or a negative shift to the character resulting in knowing it no longer be as or what I thought. That core intimate conscious 'I am alive' or 'I Be' may evaporate or change. This goes back to my earliest of posts in our conversation where I talk about madness fears.

Perhaps I lied to you in the post where I said I both want to be happy and genuinely enquire into no separate self. Perhaps I really have no idea what I want and my experience of myself includes not just confusion but an element of genuine delusion. Perhaps my deepest fear is a genuine shift to Ian/I/me and I will fight to take it to the grave with me, all nicely believed in and cosseted. I suppose it is good to be open to all possibilities. I do live, or rather what I am, is after all a bit of a fantasy realm of revolving beliefs and responses (thoughts about thoughts about thoughts) to beliefs.

That's my reluctance report.

With love,

[IainB]

if I expect that I will measure what I see against emotional pains and discomfort...triggered in daily life...seeing no self means no trigger any more. No unpleasant feelings any more. No fears of being left alone, or not loved. No appearance of personhood any more.

Is it only core trauma that triggers a return to belief in seperation (for hours or days), or can the illusion simply reassert and be believed in (for hours or days) before it is knowing-remembered again as illusion? I ask further to my points above about forgetting. For example, when I was in the shower, there was complete absorption im a long stream of thoughts about the work day, what might happen, who I might meet, what to emphasise, what might be disregarded...then remembering took place 'I am engaged in a process of enquiry guided by Vivien into seeing that the character Ian has no existence whatsoever outwith thought'. Can forgetting so easily take place post gate, in such a casual way, or is it only emotion-trauma that causes it?

Thanks,

[Vivien]

Can forgetting so easily take place post gate, in such a casual way, or is it only emotion-trauma that causes it?

Well yes. Forgetting or not seeing is currently the default. It's all conditioning. that's why repeated looking is so important.

But if you look at the example you brought up about the work day when showering, if you look at it closely, isn't there emotions with those stories?

Can there be any 'absorbing' story without emotions? What all that means about me triggering something, something to feel? What if this happens? Or that happens? What if I mess it up? How can I succeed? - and similar thoughts.... can there be self referential thoughts without even just the slightest emotional charge? Either good or bad?

Please spend a whole day looking at this... try to notice as many self-referential thought as possible... and then shift focus to the body to see if there is an feeling there, even just a slightest discomfort or contraction, or maybe something pleasant if the story is positive... Let me know what you find.

Easy. It is located as a half sphere that extends immediately behind the eyes and cheekbones and mouth to a maximum depth of 3' into the head. It is alive. It is me.

However, as I enquire and write an alarm bell goes off in thought: 'that's a story based upon the sensations in the head and the vividness of colour'. 'That is not quite right'. This is real.

Well, that thought explanation is an intellectual knowledge, a conceptual one, isn't it?

We need to see this experientially and not just have thoughts and conceptual understanding of it.

How do we do that? By FEELING into that area and while FEELING it, inquiring:

If I don't consult with thoughts, what can I know about the area behind the eyes, just by FEELING it?

What is it that I actually FEEL there?

What can I discover about that area by FEELING only?

Notice that I capitalized all words of FEELING. Since that's what needs to be done... going along the feeling and not by the intellect. Of course, once you noticed what it is you actually feel there you will need words to describe it, but that's very different. Since you describe your felt experience, using as simply and precise words as possible without adding anything extra, compared to only thinking about it.

Please spend one day with the first set of questions (self-referential thoughts coming with emotions) and another day with the felt experience behind the eyes.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien

[IainB]

if you look at it closely, isn't there emotions with those stories

This is deliciously revelatory. There is a sensation going on when each thought appears.

So, when there are overwhelming thoughts and sensations it is believed I/me/Ian is here, having and at the centre of these thoughts and sensations.

And when there is simply a stream of thoughts about Ian's life, there are corresponding positive sensations, anxious sensations, anticapatroy and fearful sensations, uplifting sensations. Of course sensation is simply sensation, but does feel different each time so you could describe it with these thought labels.

Earlier I contemplated if there was an addictive nature to sensation and thought. The flow of one after another, again again again.

Can there be any 'absorbing' story without emotions?

No. The emotions make the story feel 'real', and drive the absorbtion.

can there be self referential thoughts without even just the slightest emotional charge? Either good or bad?

There were self referential thoughts with just a generic core sensation that was neither good nor bad, simply an alive core sensation.

shift focus to the body to see if there is an feeling there, even just a slightest discomfort or contraction, or maybe something pleasant if the story is positive

Always a sensation / feeling.

Thank you.

[IainB]

Well, that thought explanation is an intellectual knowledge, a conceptual one, isn't it?

The thought explanation is entirely intelectual and conceptual sure. Thought / intellect comes as a response to seeking to communicate the felt sensation of me, possible locations and so forth. I wish I could invite you directly to share the alive now of me, and you could directly show me what it is sought to know and be shared here. Instead of going round in circles.

We need to see this experientially and not just have thoughts and conceptual understanding of it.

Don't worry I can promise you this is seen. It is the most obvious thing. Yes I do go about my day having a constant narrative stream of thoughts about Ian-me-I. And there is always sensation as long as there is consciousness. But the thoughts are not required to know me, if anything they are a distraction from the immediateness of life. They are like a commentary about me. When narrative thought is not present, life is, is known.

If I ask a stranger the location of the bathroom, and they start talking about lefts and rights and stairs and doors, I know this to be pure concept, and I know instinctively that until I am stood in the room that corresponds to what I was looking for I am not there. If I ask a stranger what it feels like to be in the bathroom, I expect a different answer, still a sharing of concepts but one of qualitative judgements and comparisons, analogies etc.

If I don't consult with thoughts, what can I know about the area behind the eyes, just by FEELING it?

It is thoroughly felt and known.
I'm quite happy feeling this sensation, it's known that words can't really describe it.
Alive.

What is it that I actually FEEL there?

Sensation is felt.
There is no It felt there, there is simply feeling.
Sure any It has to be an additional creation. Sensation is not a discrete object.

What can I discover about that area by FEELING only?

Well, it is known how different sensation is to thoughts about sensation, or thoughts about anything.
There is no point me suggesting other words as these will simply demonstrate how concepts may be added in thought.
You say discover but sensation is, it's not hidden and then discovered, it is known.

Notice that I capitalized all words of FEELING. Since that's what needs to be done.

I hope that by FEELING you mean the knowing of sensation. By knowing of sensation I don't mean anything separate from sensation itself. Of course there isn't a separate knowing or knower, just sensation. To say sensation is known, is an attempt to share with you that sensation is focused upon, rather than thought content or colour etc.

describe your felt experience, using...simple and precise words as possible without adding anything extra, compared to only thinking about it.

I wish I could invite you directly to share the alive now of me, and you could directly show me what it is sought to be known and be shared here.

What is it that I actually FEEL there?

I will repeat this lots today, but as it by nature a non conceptual non verbal personal experience, I don't anticipate coming up with anything further that might be communicated in text.

Thanks,

[IainB]

WHERE is this looker EXACTLY in the body?

My frustrations have really latched onto this today. It feels as though I need something to be angry about and this conversation presents as a series of tasks to be done, and reluctance and frustration come up motivating more attempts to answer.

Of course it's not a task, but rather a very personal intimate looking directly into what I am, here. I make it a task in my resistance to looking and seeing.

I feel like a teenager who is reluctantly being made to do therapy because they keep hitting their friends, and the therapist is waiting for the teenager to finally get in touch with their feelings of hurt/rejection and rage so they can begin to own them rather than just lashing out in response to them. Is belief and holding to the separate character a similar immature response to finding wild uncontrolled unchosen aliveness taking place?

I guess I should have picked up on the capitalised EXACTLY in your question and not answered from concept/memory/thought.

An answer not using thought would have to be that the looker cannot be found separate from sensation and colour.

Well, this 'looker looking out from the body' IS the belief in the separate self. This what needs to be looked at.

'looker looking out from the body' was more of a felt sensation corresponding with colour than a belief. Unless there can be a belief in sensation and colour? Belief seems more like some valued returning concept in thought of I/me/Ian separate from what is alive and here that I describe with the words looking out from the body. Of course to say looker goes too far, there is simply looking out of the body. Even looking out of the body goes too far, as no inside or outside can be found. Just a looking that is instinctive and known. Even the looking seems to fall away as I type these words.

There has to be more than simply sensation and colour. I am alive. I know I am alive. Not as anything more concrete than alive/knowing I am alive.

find the exact location that seem to be the residence of a looker.

Lookers and looking whatever they are don't seem to be the sort of things that can be located. To describe their location is like trying to accurately describe some unknown event from the distant past. Aliveness is alive, not locatable. It is everywhere all at once.

I really feel the limitations of typing out these answers. No conclusion seems to be reached on matter how many typed answers are produced.

With love,

[Vivien]

There has to be more than simply sensation and colour. I am alive. I know I am alive. Not as anything more concrete than alive/knowing I am alive.

there is aliveness, yes. What what is it that is making a statement I AM alive?
What makes this aliveness to be an I?

Is there really an I being alive? Or there is only aliveness happening? totally impersonal?

Is there any sort of entity that is alive, or there is just life or aliveness happening without any sort of entity?

[IainB]

Hi V,

What makes this aliveness to be an I?

Colour, sensation, sound are all known. I refer to this as aliveness as a useful term of reference.

I sat quietly and contemplate with eyes closed, drifting in an out of sleep somewhat.

The I Am or I is when a shift takes place into though, for example the thought words 'I Am' appearing in thought.

In this way in thought, like a hand clenching and grasping: aliveness becomes personalised, becomes I.

there is aliveness, yes. What what is it that is making a statement I AM alive?

This initially feels hard to answer. It is impossible to find this without making that move into thought.

More to come.

[IainB]

Is there really an I being alive? Or there is only aliveness happening? totally impersonal?

I would be lying if I were to say I can see there is only totally impersonal aliveness happening.

I'm sorry that I am unable to see this.

Instead the opposite is realised at this location here. The unique set of experiences known here gives rise to a robust belief that life is deeply personal. Only I can know my experience here, my thoughts, my secrets, my needs and desires. This is vividly persoanlised. This vivid personalisation seems to give rise to the instinctive firm belief that there is something else here in addition to just alive.

I don't know why it is difficult for me to desconstruct this and see.

I know none of it is chosen, and cannot be influenced very much. Intelectually I know there is no choice whatsoever however in reality there is still a grasping at wanting an element of control.

Is there any sort of entity that is alive, or there is just life or aliveness happening without any sort of entity?

I felt positive during the day as I looked. I went around with 'totally impersonal' and 'any sort of entity' written on my hand (in the past I would go about my day with the guided points written on a piece of paper I referred to lots, I have a collection of such pieces in my home). I was friendly towards myself with looking in a friendly positive way.

As I write this now in the early hours fo the morning I feel frustration, shame and disappointment in not being able to see. I feel the futility of the role of the guide and loss at my inability to see.

There seems a real link between seeking and self esteem (or rather lack of it). I seek because there is disatisfaction and something missing in my life. Yet when presented with the truth of who I am, when looking directly in the realness of my lived moment here, what is seemingly sought for is not got (my needs remain unmet) and there is no change to the grasping at the character.

I will keep looking at these points above.

Thanks,

[Vivien]

I would be lying if I were to say I can see there is only totally impersonal aliveness happening.

Look at expectations with this too: Do you mean that you don't see it 24/7 as a constant state, or you cannot see it when you look?

It's important to mention that we are not striving to achieve an out of ordinary state when total impersonality is the default of everything. Rather, can I see it every time, reliably, when I look? - that's all that matters.

I felt positive during the day as I looked. I went around with 'totally impersonal' and 'any sort of entity' written on my hand

This comment suggest a desire to be totally impersonal towards everything. Well, who wants that? the person who doesn't feel good, and it finds comfort by being impersonal towards everything. Seeing that there is no person at the core is not about that... It's not about being emotionless by being impersonal. It's the opposite. It's freely feeling all emotions.

As I write this now in the early hours fo the morning I feel frustration, shame and disappointment in not being able to see. I feel the futility of the role of the guide and loss at my inability to see.

Dear Ian, we not look at your expectations again and again. Just notice how farfetched your expectations or ideas about what seeing no self is.

It's not a different state than what is normally happening.
It's not a detached state.
It's not even an impersonal state where there is no reaction to anything.
Where there no emotion.
where we are blank in terms of feeling anything else than peace.
We are not trying to eliminate emotions.
We are not trying to eliminate triggers.
We are not trying to become impersonal.
We are not trying to stop being a human with all the rage of emotions and experiences.

If you desire any of those, that's just coming from the hurt of the person. The person who is unhappy, or unsatisfied.

This inquiry is not even about stopping unhappiness or unsatisfaction.

Rather about seeing (when looking and not all the time) that IN SPITE of the presence of unhappiness or unsatisfaction there is no actual person there HAVING it.
there is no one there being unhappy.
Moments, or hours, or even days of unhappiness might be happening, but it doesn't happen TO someone.
There is no-one HAVING those moments, hours or days of unhappiness.
Unhappiness us just unfolding as part of the flow of life.
Just as sometimes there is bad whether.
But bad whether doesn't happen TO anything. There is no one HAVING it.

There seems a real link between seeking and self esteem (or rather lack of it). I seek because there is disatisfaction and something missing in my life. Yet when presented with the truth of who I am, when looking directly in the realness of my lived moment here, what is seemingly sought for is not got (my needs remain unmet) and there is no change to the grasping at the character.

Well, seeing no self is hardly unlikely to undo the problems of self esteem.
It's that that if it's seen that there is no self, then all the issue, beliefs and conditionings, thinking and feeling patters, triggers around self-esteem will vanish. It will not. Highly unlikely.

Those thoughts, reactions, triggers, conditionings are wired into the brain, into the nervous system, so a different kind of inquiry can help with that... but seeing no self will not eliminate it.

So if there is dissatisfaction it could be because these desires are not resolved. Of course not. That's a different kind of issue.

The question is not whether the concerns of self-esteem stays or not, rather if there is a self here, right now, having that issue?

issue is there, feelings are there, it's unpleasant, but is there someone being affected by it?
Or it's just like bad whether?

[IainB]

Hi V,

This comment suggest a desire to be totally impersonal towards everything. Well, who wants that?

I wrote 'totally impersonal' on my hand to remind me to look to see that life is simply happening, and that emotions arise, but without a separate character who owns the emotions or within the emotions are sourced or contained.

I'll be honest, I'm not clear on what you mean by totally impersonal.

I recall some months ago there was clarity around how the character, circumstances and experiences of Ian's life were seen as unchosen, arbitrary and there was nothing that could be done to influence how they may be different in the 'future'. That which was felt to be 'owned' and 'define' who I was seen to have been unchosen and arbitrary, so there was a now distance between these personal attributes and there was no longer an enmeshment and absorption with the character. 'I' (whatever I am) did not 'choose' Ian, and 'I' cannot change Ian. Does such understanding link with the impersonal nature of no self?

we need to look at your expectations again and again. Just notice how farfetched your expectations or ideas about what seeing no self is.

Is frustration and disappointment not natural at times when enquiring? I'm not ashamed to express that shame sometimes comes up for me. Your points are simple, clear, and beatifully expressed. They directly relate or point to the core of who or what I am and how life unfolds here. If this sometimes links to negative emotions coming up for me linked to ideas that I am somehow missing something or not seeing something then I quite enjoy expressing this.

And if this means I have unrealistic expectations then of course I'm very happy to look at this also.

It's not a different state other than what is normally happening.

Of course. The wish to achieve an imagined 'state' where there is no anger, perhaps only a balanced state of comfort, perhaps an enduring experience of love, really defines what the naive spiritual seeker desires and feels might be got through spiritual practice, or on the other side of some realisation. It is the fantasy that some religions package up and appears as a goal in the thoughts of the seeker. Thought imagines such outcomes in response to the uncontrolled shocking wildness of life, or because normal life is seen as mundane and disappointing.

But life doesn't conform to 'states'. It is free flowing. The normal now is all there is.

It's not a detached state.

Sometimes my emotions do feel uncomfortably out of control. In the midst of this usually the thought appears that it will pass, and even if there is deep discomfort, there is a wider truth in which paradoxically it is known that life is both painfull and shocking, and calm and quiescent. Obviously not both at the same time, but also not separate.

When I feel out of control in pain, if I could flick a swtich to feel calm and quiescent would I? Of course I would.

Such a switch doesn't appear though. What appears is absorption into heightened painful sensation and vivid intrusive thoughts. This appears until it no longer appears.

Do I conflate seeing no separate self with such an imagined detached state switch? Perhaps somewhere on some level I actually do. I can see how this would prevent seeing.

I have addictive behaviours, learned behaviours which attempt to switch states. Perhaps seeking within LU is a similar attempt to resolve the core issue of sometimes feeling good, sometimes feeling bad.

I get your points that it won't deliver this. Some expectations seem impossible to discharge.

It's not even an impersonal state where there is no reaction to anything. Where there is no emotion.

I can imagine such an impersonal state in thought. Surely that's not what seeing no separate self is about. As you guide it is about all emotions coming, but not from an I, or owned by an I, or with an I who benefits from good reactions and is disadvantaged by bad reactions. Or an I who has achieved a state where they have divorced themselves from reacting.

It's not a different state than what is normally happening.

I only have what is normally happening. And if that means I wake in the middle of the night and feel disappointment and frustration about typing out here then that is what is expressed. If there are fanatasies in thought about improving Ian, or somehow joining dots to make a new and better Ian, or seeing that here never was a character Ian outwith imagination, then that may be expressed. The pretend future is a complete disapointment and cannot be got even if recurring thoughts about it are known. There is only what is had now.

It's not a detached state.
It's not even an impersonal state where there is no reaction to anything.
Where there no emotion.
where we are blank in terms of feeling anything else than peace.

States seem such a let down. I'm sure I have had some, briefly, where I felt at deep peace or contentment.

But they way life operates seems immune to getting states more, or exercising volition to make certain states happen more often or stick around. I can see both my fantasy life attempts to achieve this and how little control there is in ever managing this.

This is the paradox at the centre of life. What is is not good enough. How what is could be better is imagined in thought, plus revolving ways to get it. I want a better partner, I want more exciting experiences, I want reassurance and peace, I want an easier routine and more rewards, I want a detached state with no reactions and the character Ian in pacified and neutered.

So even I have given up the dream of states. That doesn't mean that the wish disapears entirely, and goals appear in thought and are followed, but there is some insight that all that isn;t how life operates.

We are not trying to eliminate emotions.
We are not trying to eliminate triggers.

I'm not clear that was/is my goal. I'm actually quite attached to my reactivity in some ways. Sometimes I deliberately act happy and effusive amongst my colleagues amidst the drudgery and repetitiveness of our work, sometimes I express deep anger and frustration. Soemtimes I like to be calm despite chaotic events. Some emotions do seem to represent a fighting against the events and appearance of life. Such a fight can only be a fight with and against myself, and can only be like a concentric circle of self harm: "things are going wrong and I respond by angrily fighting and deepening the going wrongness". This is stuff all about me, but I don't see how seeing no me in the way it is grasped will change this.

We are not trying to become impersonal.
We are not trying to stop being a human with all the range of emotions and experiences.

I'll quite happily keep my emotions thank you. And as for experience, that feels like I am always at the tip of a crashing wave washed againts the stark immediate happening of nowness. I might have thoughts that this or that are not wanted and how I want to change things but there is no escaping how things are now.

If you desire any of those, that's just coming from the hurt of the person. The person who is unhappy, or unsatisfied.

Do please hammer me around expectations all you like. I refuse to respond with anything other than honesty. I want to use these resources I have in this enquiry, those being my conscious knowing I am alive, my ability to view the character Ian and his unfolding life, the emotions that manifest, that which is labelled colour and sensation, my ability to look and know.

If sometimes I feel that seeking is being driven and nothing is being acheived, I'm delighted to express it. At other times I'm filled with wonder as I look and see I am everything and absent of a limiting personal character. At yet other times I'm submerged in the repeated drudgery of my life, my addictions firing, experiencing a rollercoaster of experience. This is what I have to use.

The question is not whether the concerns of self-esteem stays or not, rather if there is a self here, right now, having that issue?

I'm not sure how to answer this. After spilling out all the thoughts above I'm reluctant to go into thought to provide ideas to answer with. There is certainly life here. There must be a character Ian with lots of attributes (known as a sequence of thoughts).

This extra bit. This self. That's a bit more tricky. It's like a person in the room that I know is here, but constantly disappears out of view as the eyes move to catch sight of it.

issue is there, feelings are there, it's unpleasant, but is there someone being affected by it?

I know this to be true and I wish to see it. I look. Like a maelstrom of life but no me at the centre.

I do look you know, so much I physically shake somewhat.

Or it's just like bad weather?

The weather is known, but I, knowing am not affected by the weather.I just know it as it unfolds.

Thanks,

[IainB]

Look at expectations with this too: Do you mean that you don't see it 24/7 as a constant state, or you cannot see it when you look?

can I see it every time, reliably, when I look? - that's all that matters.

I still need to answer these points. Will do later today.