Requesting a guide.

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting a guide.

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:25 am

Nice investigation.
Sensation and blackness are known, however you say don't refer to visual thoughts, so let's just say sensation below.
Notice, is this blackness actually an experience, or it's just a mental visualization (a mental thought/image) of blackness or black color?
It's formless and colourless but if you had to ascribe it a colour you might say 'grey mass' or 'dark space'. Ian isn't a felt greay space.
Notice how thought is immediately trying to make sensation into something. It labels it as 'space'. Also, provides a visual image, a fantasy really, of colours of grayness or 'dark'.

From direct experience, is there actually colour of sensation? Is that even possible?

And if you don't consult with thoughts, how do you know that sensation is space?
How would you know about any space if you didn't fall for a mental thought/image?
Ian isn't a felt greay space.
Yes, Ian isn't a felt gray space, is is there actually a gray space FELT?
Can space if actually FELT?
Is space a feeling?
Or space is a mental construct, showing up as a mental image/thought?
Ian is a character with a story.
So you say there is Ian + a story about him? Is this how it is in immediate experience... that you can find the story (in form of thoughts) + Ian, that the story is about?

Find Ian that is separate from or other than the thought-story itself. Where is he?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:35 am

Is this blackness actually an experience, or it's just a mental visualization (a mental thought/image) of blackness or black color?
There is colour labelled blackness, when eyes are closed, AE = colour.
There is thought content 'a body with height is not experienced, rather blackness'. AE of thought.
is there actually colour of sensation? Is that even possible?
Only in a thought story. While colour is experienced when conscious, and sensation is experienced when conscious, colour does not have a sensation and sensation does not have a colour.
if you don't consult with thoughts, how do you know that sensation is space?
Only sensation is known if thought is disregarded.
As with all cases, thought content is a label, concept, attempt to explain, extrapolate, suppose, lie.
How would you know about any space if you didn't fall for a mental thought/image?
Only colour and sensation would be known.
Space is a story in thought.
Rather than a separate you falling for a thought, the content of thought is known and either believed or known to be a story, then passes.
is there actually a gray space FELT?
Sensation is experienced.
There may be colour labelled gray.
There may be thought content about grey. There may be a thought image of a space.
While these may be known, a gray space cannot be felt.
Can space be actually FELT?
There may be a thought about space.
There are sensations.
A thought cannot be felt. The content is lifeless, whereas sensation and colour are known.
or is space a mental construct, showing up as a mental image/thought?
Ideas such as space can of course only be within thought content.
Is this how it is in immediate experience... that you can find the story + Ian, that the story is about?
It would be more accurate to say Ian is a sequence of thoughts with further thoughts about those thoughts.
So the story is known, but no seperate character to who it belongs can be found.
Find Ian that is separate from or other than the thought-story itself. Where is he?
Characters by definition can only be within the content of thought.
Separate from this what is known is sensation, colour, sound, all known and alive.
No amount of looking will result in the finding of the separate person.

With love,
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting a guide.

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:52 am

It would be more accurate to say Ian is a sequence of thoughts with further thoughts about those thoughts.
So the story is known, but no seperate character to who it belongs can be found.
So what do you say, how much of these are actually have been seen, and how much of it is coming from intellectual reasoning? 50-50? Less, more?

What is missing?

What is not complete?

What else is there to seen?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:01 am

This triggers what we refer to as ‘crossing the Gateless Gate’: an instant in which the illusion of a separate self is seen through. A shift in perception happens
how much of these are actually have been seen, and how much of it is coming from intellectual reasoning? 50-50? Less, more?

I don't know. I have to be open minded and say up to 100% comes from intellectual reasoning as no seen through or shift is evident in alive-now. Unless I'm missing it.
What is missing?

What is not complete?

What else is there to seen?
I've noticed I've not looked much in the last few days. I need to get looking.

With love,
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting a guide.

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:03 am

So if you didn't look in the last few days, then how did you answer the questions? From memory?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:08 am

Ahh I mean the looking a 100 times a day (and not finding I/me/Ian) or so fell away for some days.

When answering your questions I paused, looked into sensation or colour and so forth, looked for what was apparent or what came up, avoided any answers simply appearing in thought content (memory).

Thanks,
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting a guide.

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:19 am

OK, then what makes you think that you haven't seen it?

What kind of shift do you expect?

How would you recognize a shift? What are the signs?

What would shift?

Note: these are not looking questions, rather just a conversation about your expectations.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:37 am

Hi V,

I feel like I've slipped into playing a chess like game with you, where the entire goal has become to convince you that I have seen (whatever that means I don't know), and any actual change taking place at the location here was/is irrelevent.

It is as though I have consciously or unconciously projected my trauma, anger and frustrations at my life onto you and the opportunity for communication the forum here gives to somehow try to feel better about my experience of life. Like the therapy client who sits in the chair, will say a few bits while being too scared to really open up, and then blames the therapist for not fixing them.

Not just here and now with you, but I can see how many avenues in my life have been somehow dressed up to try to fix this core trauma. Of course, it cannot simply be resolved like that (but the seeker keeps trying).

I suppose this isn't unique to me but quite a common human behaviour. I appreciate this insight, disconcerting and uncomfortable as it is.
It really sounds that you are after a new identity.
But what do you need an identity for?
And more importantly, what is it that needs a new identity?
Yes. Everything I have have done here has been an attempt to escape or change who I am, with little real wish to see who I really am (if indeed there is anything to see or find there). This was mainly an unconscious deception, but interestingly it seems it had to surface eventually, and here it is.

Seeking is such a barren desert. Especially when seeking is simply a mask for not being happy or comfortable with yourself and your experiecne of life. Doubly what is sought for doubly cannot be got.

A new identify (or wider new life experience) is sought because of the shame, fear and rejection I feel for myself and consciously and unconciously try to move away from. Of course, bypassing or burying isn't effective, and always feels a bit like a band aid plaster over the crack.
But what do you need an identity for?
And more importantly, what is it that needs a new identity?
It is wished for and shows up in both sensations and shows up as a narrative in thought. Its is deeply rooted in the subconscious but I can see part of it in operation.

All my activity in the sphere of non-duality (for want of a better word, I'm not a fan of that one) over the last six years has been like a damaged person trying to become a 'therapist' themselves, all the while retaining their core trauma, shame, incompleteness and loss but burying it deeper, simply bypassing, while masquerading as a 'therapist' in an attempt to feel better about themselves.
what makes you think that you haven't seen it?
This insight (if that's what it is) helps reset things. I suspect I have no real inention of seeing and I'm just after a less uncomfortable version of Ian, which is a well worn path that keeps getting dressed up in fresh clothes. So either I have seen, but of course it hasn't given me what I'm after, or I'm so mired in self deception that I can't even imagine what seeing is.

How embarrasing (but also a relief). Thank god I have no choice over this. Imagine the apology I would have to offer if I had chosen this?
What kind of shift do you expect?
I want a less uncomfortable verison of me. I want escape. I may pretend I'm after freedom but that's nonsense. Of course, these expecations cannot be met so I am stuck in a loop. This insight and honest is refreshing, and constitutes a shift in itself, but far different from what I was seeking. Instead, I get a little insight into the games I play and their source.
How would you recognize a shift? What are the signs?
I don't know and not sure how much I care. It would appear that I am trapped in an illusion that I myself addictively stoke the fires of to preserve and maintian at all costs.

That being said, there is a relevence to 'not knowing' what the shift looks like. As guides are so fond of saying "it cannot be known in advance" because of course any sequence of thoughts about something not here and now is just a fantasy story. So by definition this makes it hard to know in advance what it will be like, and this is a little bit of a trick question.

I do believe there must be some sort of felt movement (that can be communicated, that is picked up on by the guide). A little like my insight into my motivations spelled out above. No euphoria or fireworks, but some sort of core way of looking/being must slightly turn and be seen to move. Like a painting of a portrait on a wall that once a year at halloween winks at you before returning to normal. Like stepping out onto the balcony of a tall building, there is a moment of vertigo, of surprise, that settles into naturalness as the self deception is lowered.

Surely there has to be less adhesion to the addictive story of self and the never ending seeking patterns, somehow things becomes at least a little more fluid? So all that further work you describe to maintain and continue may be entered into.
What would shift?
Good question (as they all are of course). I love how questions like this just leave me fumbling, unable to answer, a screen of confusion and incomprehension suddenly appears. Perhaps nothing shifts. Perhaps simply life plays out exactly as before and exactly as it would regardless. Perhaps there is a realisation that I am never ever going to get what I really want.

Thanks.
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting a guide.

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:02 am

Hi Ian,

Thank you for your honest reply. But more importantly, thank it for yourself that you can be honest with yourself :) This is big and very useful. Yes, it's very normal to feel this way and project our traumas onto others, we all do that. But just a few are brave enough to look at it and see them in action. Seeing this is a huge step. We cannot work with something that we are not aware that we are doing in the first place.
Yes. Everything I have have done here has been an attempt to escape or change who I am, with little real wish to see who I really am (if indeed there is anything to see or find there).
Well, yes. This is the underlying desire that most, if not all, really strive for in the name of seeking :) And that's all right. Suffering is a big motivator.

Now, as you are aware of this, what you need to ask yourself is to see if you are actually want to see that there is no self governing life, or you are ok with being the self, and just want to feel better. If you choose the latter, that's completely ok. You can want both. But if you do, you need to be super clear that seeing no self will not undo the core trauma that is governing your life. For that, other methods are needed. Some tendencies might fall, or not, but the ones that creates suffering probably will stay. It might get weaker for a while, but it will not be gone.

so please spend some time contemplate what it is that you really want, and then we continue accordingly.

Love,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:30 am

Hi V,
you need to ask yourself is to see if you are actually want to see that there is no self governing life, or you are ok with being the self, and just want to feel better.
When I watch the content of thought, it would seem to be one unchosen 'memory', unchosen concept or unchosen piece of narrative after the other, some benign, some quite unpleasant. All rather 'ungoverned'. Each does 'suck in attention' and when absorbed there little analysis takes place, there is simply absorption.

But if I examine closely, or especially if I wake in the middle of the night and deeply watch, undistracted by the colour and sound and flow of daily life, then it is an unknown and a surprise what content comes next.

So even me, in my confusion and trauma, know that to attempt to consult the content of thought as to some decisive conclusion as to doer/no doer; or if Ian just fancies being a self and let's get that self a bit therapised or medicated or more loved or intoxicated, would be as relevent as approaching a stranger in the street and asking them for their answers. And if I can't particularly rely upon thought, I have no alternative source of answers.

So of course there is simply a wish for less suffering, less unpleasant thoughts, less buffeting, less physical pain, less loss and death. However, there is a knowing that for as long as I have existed there hasn't been a route to modifying or changing what is going on. God knows how you expect me to answer this point.

you need to be super clear that seeing no self will not undo the core trauma that is governing your life
This is much more juicy a question, and feels like it has teeth. I don't believe core trauma governs my life by the way, but it deos seems to inform thought content. I know what you mean though. I will get this properly answred below.
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:36 am

you need to be super clear that seeing no self will not undo the core trauma that is governing your life

Ok.
I went looking for a past guides advice to go with the heart when 'deciding' to either gate and beyond or instead live a life from separation. I thought to write about how I like this enquiry because it uses/addresses the most intimate experience of me and now, that which is always come back to, and so I cannot really pull away from it. Instead I found a beautiful line I hope you won't mind me sharing from said guide:

We don't do this inquiry to feel better or solve problems, but only to clarify the lived assumption that this felt 'me' is a being within, at the heart of my life, running the show.

I bypassed these before. There was the automatic assumption that gating had to be only of the feeling better and less problems. I will spend the next couple of days looking at your point if that's okay. It's a rich area.

With love,
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:35 am

ask yourself is to see if you are actually want to see that there is no self governing life, or you are ok with being the self, and just want to feel better [...] you can want both
I choose that which best fits my experience of life. I find myself in what seems an ever changing flow, but is only ever known now. There is colour, sensation, sound, and an instinctive felt/known aliveness (although this is the most 'obvious' thing, paradoxically it cannot be pinned down separate from colour/sensation/sound). There is an ongoing psycho-drama narrative in thought about a character called Ian. It is not known if anything exists outwith this 'knowing/life'. Convention suggests there are 'others', 'out there' each with their own unique flow of experience, however this is only known as an interpretation here (paradoxically again it may be both: there are others with unique experiences, and only alive knowing here). It is anticipated there will be a conclusion, similar to falling asleep, however waking up won't take place. I would like to choose the way forward that best fits with what is found and described here.

So both please. I reserve the right to feel good about life, while wishing to explore life and what I am or are not.

Thanks,
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting a guide.

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 23, 2022 12:21 am

So both please. I reserve the right to feel good about life, while wishing to explore life and what I am or are not.
All right :)

Now, look for the one that doesn't feel good right now. Where is the one not feeling good?
Where is the one who/what is not OK right now?
Where is the one that wishes to feel good?

so we are looking for the one that feels....
and the one that is unhappy or unsatisfied with whatever is happening....
and for the one that wants something else, like feeling something else (better, happy, good)....
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IainB
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Requesting a guide.

Postby IainB » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:19 pm

Sorry, no answers.

I'll keep looking.

Thanks,
The Longest Journey you will ever take is from your Head to your Heart. Sioux Indian

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting a guide.

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:24 pm

All right. Please make sure you keep focusing on the questions, looking what they are pointing at...
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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