New to LU: looking for a guide

[Akshant]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? As a long time truth seeker (something like 20 years) I have heard thousand of times that there is no self, but honestly no real transformation has occurred. I had some “peak experiences” where the usual sense of “I” disappeared, but it was replaced by an impersonal “I”, but the fact is that these experiences only lasted very short time.

What are you looking for at LU? After 20 years of seeking until today I'm suffering as usual, maybe more because I’m more aware of the trap I’m in.
I’m looking for someone that can help me to cross the threshold. In my life as a truth seeker, I’ve never had a living guide, someone with whom I could talk, only books and recorded videos. I’m completely alone in this endeavor and I have no friends or someone in my life that share the same interest in liberation. Because of my failure until now as solitary seeker, I finally would like to ask for help.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I really don’t know what to expect, but I hope it will work out.
I hope for some help in some real transformation to occur, not merely a fleeting “peak experience”, but a radical change in my everyday experience of reality. I know it is not something that someone could give to me, but nevertheless I think that a little guidance could help.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? In the last 20 years I tested a lot of different things. I lived in a Osho commune for 2 and a half years and after that I followed the work of some contemporary teachers (Adyashanti, Tolle, etc.) and after that many non-dual teachers like Rupert Spira and Mooji and the writings of old masters from Advaita Vedanta (Nisargadatta, Ramana, etc.).
In the past I meditated a lot, but now I stopped because I experience a lot of frustration when I try to meditate (nothing never happens).
I never attempted a formal inquiry method, but only followed some momentary curiosity.
Maybe a little dedication in some particular inquiry could help.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

I am glad to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

I invite you to read the disclaimer text and learn how to use the quote function.

I recommend to you to come once a day in the forum to give your answers and look at my questions and comments. It is important to maintain the flow of looking at direct experience.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Cool Warissem,
nice to meet you!
I'm ready to start digging in.

You wrote:

I recommend to you to come once a day in the forum to give your answers and look at my questions and comments. It is important to maintain the flow of looking at direct experience.

Sure, in this moment of my life I have plenty of time to dedicate to this exploration. I have some health problem that forces me to stay in my bed 24 hours a day, so there isn't so much to distract me!

Thanks a lot for your help and I look forward to your questions.
Have a nice day.

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Ashkant

Nice meeting you too.

Sure, in this moment of my life I have plenty of time to dedicate to this exploration. I have some health problem that forces me to stay in my bed 24 hours a day, so there isn't so much to distract me!

I wish a prompt recovery.


First, you need to get familiar with the difference between Direct experience and thoughts stories. Imagining a glass of water is different from having a glass of water in your hand. As you can see, it is evident that imagination is a thought story and having a glass of water in your hand is Direct experience. Direct experience can be known through one or more of the 5 senses. In the example above, the glass of water is seen, heard (if we tap it with the finger or whatever), water is tasted, touched.
During our dialog, you 'll be asked to look at direct experience and SEE the answer coming from direct experience, from what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched (or felt as sensations). Thoughts and concepts will be used to communicate.

Now, to play with, here is a question :

In your introduction you used the word "I" : is there an I, a you in any shape or form ? Look at direct experience.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem,

Thanks for your wishes!
Let’s start. You wrote:

First, you need to get familiar with the difference between Direct experience and thoughts stories. Imagining a glass of water is different from having a glass of water in your hand. As you can see, it is evident that imagination is a thought story and having a glass of water in your hand is Direct experience. Direct experience can be known through one or more of the 5 senses. In the example above, the glass of water is seen, heard (if we tap it with the finger or whatever), water is tasted, touched.

Crystal clear.
Regarding your first question:

In your introduction you used the word "I" : is there an I, a you in any shape or form ? Look at direct experience.

There is no “I” in my direct experience, in any shape or form, meaning nothing that can be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or felt. However, I cannot say there is nothing at all: something is absolutely present: an aware presence that to me looks very like me.
Sorry, I know I’m somehow cheating, because this aware presence can’t be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or felt but nevertheless it is real in the sense that obviously exists and seems like I’m this aware presence.

P.S.
I must preface that I have familiarity with the Advaita teachings, which point to the ultimate subject of experience as our true identity. So for me, this entire idea that “there is no I” is very new and somehow in direct contrast with what I have heard before.
I can’t imagine reconciling these two opposite views about my true nature in my brain. However following the Advaita teachings never brought me luck, so I’m willing to test all the assumptions that until now I have taken for granted.

Please let me know what you think.

Greetings,

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Ashkant

There is no “I” in my direct experience, in any shape or form, meaning nothing that can be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or felt. However, I cannot say there is nothing at all: something is absolutely present: an aware presence that to me looks very like me.

Sorry, I know I’m somehow cheating, because this aware presence can’t be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or felt but nevertheless it is real in the sense that obviously exists and seems like I’m this aware presence.

Yes, there is this aware presence but it is not you. Illusion resides in the identification. You are going to investigate about the truth of the absence of a separate self, of a you. I just show you where to look.

P.S.
I must preface that I have familiarity with the Advaita teachings, which point to the ultimate subject of experience as our true identity. So for me, this entire idea that “there is no I” is very new and somehow in direct contrast with what I have heard before.
I can’t imagine reconciling these two opposite views about my true nature in my brain. However following the Advaita teachings never brought me luck, so I’m willing to test all the assumptions that until now I have taken for granted.

Please let me know what you think.

There is no contradiction between Vedanta and what is done here. Vedanta speaks about discrimination about awareness (being aware) and the objects of awareness. Here we go to the core of all beliefs, which is “I”, the illusion is the identification to an I.

Now about your expectations, you said in the introduction :

I really don’t know what to expect, but I hope it will work out.

Good.

I hope for some help in some real transformation to occur, not merely a fleeting “peak experience”, but a radical change in my everyday experience of reality. I know it is not something that someone could give to me, but nevertheless I think that a little guidance could help.

The reality is already what is, with or without the belief in a separate self. However, the change occurs in the perspective of looking at what is here and now. Today, the belief in a separate self works as a filter : all happenings are brought to a me, a you. After the filter is removed," what is" is seen as it is, happening to no one.

Here is an investigation about thoughts : it helps to give light to thoughts. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what their content and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all. Then give answers to these questions.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Are you a thinker of thoughts ?

Take time to each question and look till you see the truth of the answer.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissen

Regarding the investigation of thoughts, my answer is not at all, I’m not in control of the thought process in any way.
Thought appears and disappears streaming from some unknown source, but definitely, this source is not in my control.
I cannot stop, predict, choose, or prevent any thought from appearing, so obviously, there is no thinker there.

You said:

The reality is already what is, with or without the belief in a separate self. However, the change occurs in the perspective of looking at what is here and now. Today, the belief in a separate self works as a filter : all happenings are brought to a me, a you. After the filter is removed," what is" is seen as it is, happening to no one.

This links directly to our discussion about Vedanta, about which I have a different understanding. You wrote:

There is no contradiction between Vedanta and what is done here. Vedanta speaks about discrimination about awareness (being aware) and the objects of awareness. Here we go to the core of all beliefs, which is “I”, the illusion is the identification to an I.

Discrimination between awareness and phenomena is only an introductory step. The last step is the recognition that phenomena arise in consciousness as consciousness itself, in other words, phenomena are made of consciousness, so consciousness is all there is to the apparent material world and selves.

The contradiction that I see is that another name for consciousness is “I am”, meaning the aware presence that I take myself to be until now.
Maybe I mistook this “I am” as something personal and your idea of “no-self” would be the same as a Vedantic impersonal I amness.

These are the questions that actually are in my mind:
- Is this aware presence an “I”, a subject, the ultimate entity or is awareness something like a verb?
- Is this aware presence what I am or this aware presence operates without the need of a Me?

In other words, do you think that “I am” or beingness doesn’t necessarily imply an entity and it is an impersonal process like the thought process?

Please help me clarify this point because it seems to be exactly where I’m stuck.

See you soon,

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Ashkant

These are the questions that actually are in my mind:
- Is this aware presence an “I”, a subject, the ultimate entity or is awareness something like a verb?

The answer to this question will be seen throughout our dialog. The clue is not to know the answer or to believe it, the clue is to see the truth for yourself, after investigation.

- Is this aware presence what I am or this aware presence operates without the need of a Me?

See it for yourself : look at the seeing, does it need a you to do it or is it just happening ? Relax, close your eyes, then open them. As soon as eyes are open, seeing is happening. Do this exercise with seeing, hearing till you see that there is no seer, no hearer hiding somewhere.

In other words, do you think that “I am” or beingness doesn’t necessarily imply an entity and it is an impersonal process like the thought process?

Look at what is going on : does being need an entity to be ? Do you do something to be ?
Do you do something to be aware ? Do you do something to read and understand these words on the screen ?

Please help me clarify this point because it seems to be exactly where I’m stuck.

I does not help you when I give answers to your questions : the goal is not to understand what is going on, the goal is to see the truth for yourself through LOOKING AT direct experience. Looking at direct experience is the sole tool which is used during your homework, during the investigation.

What is arising as thoughts, sensations when you read this :
There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.


Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissen,

I get it, the key is to look for myself. Not thinking about it or asking for answers but simply to look.
I have to admit that this isn’t something I’m accustomed to do, until now I was merely thinking about spiritual concepts and never I looked directly into my experience.

Now the problem is that is not so easy to discard all my previous spiritual knowledge and interpretations, because these interpretations tend to superimpose themselves over the direct experience and give meanings to what is looked at.
Nevertheless, I tried to look freshly and this is what I found:

- Seeing and hearing appear to happen by themselves, so there is no need for a seer or hearer of any sort. Life is clearly flowing freely and spontaneously.
- Being also happens by itself, so could be the same as seeing and hearing, but for me, it is difficult to understand that being doesn’t refer to any being in particular. Is an entity needed for being to be? It appears so but in really direct experience I cannot find this entity, only nothingness, an open and aware space.
- Awareness is, in spite of any effort not to be aware. The problem is that until I believe that awareness and the object of awareness are two different things, awareness seems something personal and its objects impersonal. But in the end, dividing awareness and what is aware of seems to be a construct of the thought, because without anything to be aware of there can’t be any awareness as such.

I hope I’m on the right track, what do you think?

Finally, you asked:

What is arising as thoughts, sensations when you read this:
There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.

A little bit of confusion and wonder.
I’m starting to realize that all my life until now has been lived under the impression that everything was happening to me. So everything happening seems so fucking personal and the has given rise to a lot of resistance and reactivity.
I’m wondering how can be living without taking anything personally.
Also all my life I felt separate from everything and everyone and I wonder how can be to realize that there is no separation whatsoever.

I’m afraid that no final “click” has happened to me, I’m still looking and trying to see things more clearly.

All the best,

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Ashkant

I get it, the key is to look for myself. Not thinking about it or asking for answers but simply to look.

Yes, great. Look at direct experience till the answer is seen.

Now the problem is that is not so easy to discard all my previous spiritual knowledge and interpretations, because these interpretations tend to superimpose themselves over the direct experience and give meanings to what is looked at.

Yes, let aside all what you know about spirituality during this dialog.

Nevertheless, I tried to look freshly and this is what I found:

- Seeing and hearing appear to happen by themselves, so there is no need for a seer or hearer of any sort. Life is clearly flowing freely and spontaneously.

You use the verb “appear” : is there a doubt about what is seen ? Is there a seer or a hearer doing the seeing or the hearing ? LOOK and be 100 % sure of the truth of the answers.

- Being also happens by itself, so could be the same as seeing and hearing, but for me, it is difficult to understand that being doesn’t refer to any being in particular. Is an entity needed for being to be? It appears so but in really direct experience I cannot find this entity, only nothingness, an open and aware space.

Yes, there is no room for a separate self to be : is there an entity in a cat, in a tree ? We are conditioned to put a subject before a verb but “what is” is without even using words.

- Awareness is, in spite of any effort not to be aware. The problem is that until I believe that awareness and the object of awareness are two different things, awareness seems something personal and its objects impersonal. But in the end, dividing awareness and what is aware of seems to be a construct of the thought,

Yes.

because without anything to be aware of there can’t be any awareness as such.

Awareness (being aware as a verb) is continuous even with no objects. Take the example of sleep : in deep sleep there is no dream, no appearances but there is awareness (the alarm clock is heard then you wake up). Now, we insist on awareness as a verb “being aware” or “being knowing” because if it a noun, it ‘ll be limited to an object. Yet, we use the word “awareness” to the sake of communication.

A little bit of confusion and wonder.

It is ordinary because the old belief is shaken.

I’m starting to realize that all my life until now has been lived under the impression that everything was happening to me. So everything happening seems so fucking personal and the has given rise to a lot of resistance and reactivity.

Yes, that is the case for all of us but a time comes when a questioning arises about all this stuff. We are just looking for truth in plain view, there is nothing to believe. Look at it and see it for yourself.

I’m wondering how can be living without taking anything personally.

Taking things personally is a big part of the illusion. Life is always taking care of itself.

Also all my life I felt separate from everything and everyone and I wonder how can be to realize that there is no separation whatsoever.

Yes, as you said it, a feeling, it is a feeling of separation, a belief reinforced by the educational system, the parents, the society, etc … What has changed after you have seen that Santa does not exist in reality.

I’m afraid that no final “click” has happened to me, I’m still looking and trying to see things more clearly.

When the truth is seen, you will know for sure. Be patient and have faith in this process.

Continue to look at your daily activities (speaking, eating, walking, thinking, writing, reading or whatever) and see if there is a you, a separate self doing those activities. This is an investigation in direct experience not in thinking.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem,

Honestly, I find myself in a very strange place:

From one side I’m pretty convinced that there is no actual self to be found.
From my observation until now it makes total sense: I can’t find an I anywhere and, as I said, everything seems to happen spontaneously without a control center.
The I is a creation of thought, just a thought in and of itself, but one that gives rise to an ever-present narrative about me, my past and my future.
It is very clear that the stories about this me are the cause of much unhappiness and struggle in life and, when I’m not thinking about myself, life is simply flowing without a problem.
So from one side, everything seems clear but…

Nothing seems to have changed in me.
Maybe this has to do with my expectation and fears.
From one end I expect a shift of some sort, but instead, nothing is happening.
On the other end, after many years of seeking without finding, it seems impossible for me to get finally it. I’m afraid of missing the opportunity and that will never happen to me to see the truth.

You said:

Continue to look at your daily activities (speaking, eating, walking, thinking, writing, reading or whatever) and see if there is a you, a separate self doing those activities. This is an investigation in direct experience not in thinking.

I will follow your advice and take some time for looking better in my day-to-day activities. Maybe I need to give a little more time and get rid of the pressure.

Please, if you have some other advice for me you are totally welcome!

Have a nice day,

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

Honestly, I find myself in a very strange place:

From one side I’m pretty convinced that there is no actual self to be found.
From my observation until now it makes total sense: I can’t find an I anywhere and, as I said, everything seems to happen spontaneously without a control center.
The I is a creation of thought, just a thought in and of itself, but one that gives rise to an ever-present narrative about me, my past and my future.
It is very clear that the stories about this me are the cause of much unhappiness and struggle in life and, when I’m not thinking about myself, life is simply flowing without a problem.
So from one side, everything seems clear but…

Great. I am glad to read that.

Nothing seems to have changed in me.

There is no you and there was no you in the first place, before it was seen.

Maybe this has to do with my expectation and fears.
From one end I expect a shift of some sort, but instead, nothing is happening.

The shift has happened when it is seen that “I” is a thought without substance.

On the other end, after many years of seeking without finding, it seems impossible for me to get finally it.

What do you expect to find ?
Who or what is seeking ?
What is this me which does not get it ?

I’m afraid of missing the opportunity and that will never happen to me to see the truth.

It won’t happen to you, to something which is an illusion, a thought story. Is it true ?

I will follow your advice and take some time for looking better in my day-to-day activities. Maybe I need to give a little more time and get rid of the pressure.

Good, I am waiting for your report.

Please, if you have some other advice for me you are totally welcome!

That’s’all for now. Step by step, be patient and keep faith on this process.

Have a nice day,

Nice day for you too.

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem,

The shift has happened when it is seen that “I” is a thought without substance.

You are right: the shift already happened at the moment that was seen that the "I" is only a thought that points to nothing at all.
All the doubts are only habitual mental noise.

What do you expect to find?
Who or what is seeking ?
What is this me which does not get it ?

What is this me which doesn't get it? This question made everything clear!
There was never been any seeker of truth, only seeking. I really identified with the poor seeker that after 20 years still can't get it. Now I see that is only a story built upon the I-thought.

It won’t happen to you, to something which is an illusion, a thought story. Is it true?

Absolutely!
Thanks Warissem, your answer pointed me in the right direction, I'm so grateful for your guidance.

Now only remains an undefined sensation that something is still missing: maybe there is more to see. For example, I have seen there is no I, but what about what is it this aware presence that underlies all experiences? What is its nature?
I don't know what, but something seems incomplete from my side, can you help me pinpoint what is it?

With much gratitude,

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

You are right: the shift already happened at the moment that was seen that the "I" is only a thought that points to nothing at all.
All the doubts are only habitual mental noise.

Yes , great observations.

What is this me which doesn't get it? This question made everything clear!
There was never been any seeker of truth, only seeking. I really identified with the poor seeker that after 20 years still can't get it. Now I see that is only a story built upon the I-thought.

Yes, cristal clear. The seeker, you, is a story.
How do you feel after having seen that ?

Absolutely!
Thanks Warissem, your answer pointed me in the right direction, I'm so grateful for your guidance.

You are much welcome.

Now only remains an undefined sensation that something is still missing: maybe there is more to see.

Look at the place where this sensation is in the body : look at it with scrutiny and see what is behind it.
Seeing through the belief of a separate self is the beginning not the end.

For example, I have seen there is no I, but what about what is it this aware presence that underlies all experiences? What is its nature?

Yes, there is awareness (being aware), it is intimate but it is not personal, it is impersonal. I call it the knowing principle.

I don't know what, but something seems incomplete from my side, can you help me pinpoint what is it?

I am here to help you. You have not answered to a question in the previous post :
What do you expect to find ?
Now, about incompleteness, just express clearly what is missing, we’ll go through it.

Best wishes

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem

What do you expect to find? 
Now, about incompleteness, just express clearly what is missing, we’ll go through
it.

Yes, probably the sense of incompleteness has something to do with my expectations.
I was expecting to feel in some way different after having seen through the illusion of the separate self but instead, I don't feel in any way different.
You know, there is a lot of buzz around this thing called enlightenment and at least I was expecting some clear shift in the way I feel.

Seeing through the belief of a separate self is the beginning, not the end.

Sure, I can relate to that, but again I don't feel any discontinuity from before the inquiry.
I know that the shift can be subtle and it's delusional to expect fireworks, but I'm doubting to have really seen through the illusion of the separate self.
I also noticed some habitual reactivity arising in usual circumstances (conflicts with my partner) that give me the impression that nothing has changed after the realization.

Nevertheless, I'm pretty confident about the results of my inquiry. As I said before is crystal clear that there is no self to be fond, but only life expressing itself freely and spontaneously through this body-mind organism.

How do you feel after having seen that?

As I said pretty much the same as before. Maybe a little more relaxed and in acceptance of what is moment by moment.
To me, it seems simply a change of perspective, more than a change in how I feel.

How it was for you my friend?
You experienced a clear shift in how you felt or was something so subtle that you barely noticed any change?
Also, I'm really curious about you, I realized only now that I don't know anything about you.
How old are you? Where are you from?

Thanks again Warissem for your availability and dedication to help me sort this thing out.

Akshant