Show me the truth

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
Is everything OK? Just checking up on you...

Love
R

[Meredith57]

Hi there! Sorry for the gap again and thank you for checking in. And my apologies for all the questions in my answers, it helps me keep going, but also hopefully shows you where I’m at.

“If there is no separate “I” (no reference point) how can cause and effect be observed? Does interdependence exist outside of thought?”

I cannot directly experience interdependence or cause and effect - I can deduce it’s happening through thought - so we are back to thought again. Will I feel the effects of cause and effect, if I drop a heavy object on my toe - yes - BUT directly experiencing all that is known is physical sensations/feeling. To deduce cause and effect it’s done with thoughts.

And yet these phenomena happen, like gravity, regardless of thought - so can they be known to me outside of thought? No. But they do exist as deduced by my thoughts, which are stories, but stories that can explain things. When thoughts are explaining things about the world, are they more objective stories? Because they aren’t creating a “me” at the center - unless there is a thought about how this action will affect “me”. Can observing and deducing happen without thoughts?

The example I used about cause and effect - fluttering my fin having an effect throughout the whole fish bowl - when I look at it directly there is simply seeing, feeling, maybe hearing. But then thought deduces it is having an effect, due to observing seeing, hearing, feeling… If I just take seeing, there has to be something else layered on to get to observing - thought - which then leads to a belief someone is observing. Can observing happen outside a story? I don’t think so. Are there more objective stories than others? Possibly, but still a story. Still a story. Just because one story doesn’t have as much fantasy as another story, is it not still a story? Of course, it is. So I can’t directly know cause and effect, I can only observe it through thought, which then creates the belief there is an observer (I was thinking no I would arise here, but here it is). It’s a story.

“Is that what you actually see when you LOOK at others or is it just an assumption/thought content? How are “others” seen in DE? How does that feel?”

Yes, it was an assumption - another thought/story. When with “others” I can see, hear, feel, smell, we’ll leave taste out! That’s all I can directly experience. And now to backtrack on my previous answer. It was such a story. The story of no me, not seeing a “me/I” in “them.” And the freedom that arose from it. It was a story, it wasn’t real freedom. It was a believing in the story of no me, that believed in the story of no them. Just endless bloody stories!!! One story coming in to explain another story - thinking (hahaha!) that it was direct seeing! But it was a story about direct seeing! Not really seeing at all! And the story was that this feels better than believing I’m the ego, but it was just ego/thought/story wrapping itself in a new wrapper - that said you feel better this way.

“Can life go on without the story?”

The answer the other day - that yes, it can - was I suspect more thoughts now. The story of life without a story - a concept, because the reality is I don’t leave the story for very long. Yes, it gets put down for periods of time, but then it comes right back. So do I really know that - no, I don’t. I’d like to believe it, I do believe it - but that’s just another story.

[Meredith57]

I just realized I didn't copy and paste all my answers in the previous post. PLEASE read this one first and then it continues to the previous one.

“Thoughts say many things, which are not necessarily true, as you have seen! Next time you watch a movie, notice how you get sucked into the story; how emotions come up and judgements appear. Then all of a sudden, there is like a flip back to the room - as if focus zooms out. Observe how it happens. At which point is there a decision to snap out?”

While I want to say it feels like a decision is being made - surmising that a decision must be made in order to pull myself out of the story (doing this with a movie), really there isn’t. At least not consciously - not any decision I can directly experience. It just all of a sudden happens - the zooming out is already done - the remembering is an after effect - not the decision being made.

I would have “thought” it was the remembering causing the zoom, but it seems like the zoom happens and then the remembering once you’re already out - just like - oh yeah, that’s where I was - but I’m not there now - and so begins another story - me that was in the story and now is out of the story - but still just another story.

“Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly?”

It happens, without any effort at all - because I’m not doing it. There is only a seeing that it’s happened - one moment in the movie, all the feelings/tension corresponding to what’s happening with the character and then the next everything unwinds. I do notice the physical sensations taking place real time, as though the engine on the boat is turned off (without my knowledge), but a feeling of the physical sensations slowing down/unwinding as the boat still moves a little further from the momentum, until that momentum stops.

“Is it different from being sucked into mind movies/ getting lost in thought?”

No. They are both just stories that have feelings/physical sensations associated with them, both are believed to be true. And in both the movie and the story I tell myself, once the zooming out happens a remembering it was a story, it wasn’t true.

“ If there is nobody to believe, is ”believing in the story” actually happening or is it a story about “believing in the story” /more thought content?”

OMG - I’m laughing so hard right now! The story of “me” that believes in the story of “me” - it’s just stories upon stories upon stories, endless layers of stories. The moment the story starts so does the “me’ in the story even if it’s just “me” telling the story of “me” being lost in the story! That’s just a story too - more content!!

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
Great looking! So, has anything changed in everyday experience? How is life these days?

And yet these phenomena happen, like gravity, regardless of thought - so can they be known to me outside of thought? No. But they do exist as deduced by my thoughts, which are stories, but stories that can explain things. When thoughts are explaining things about the world, are they more objective stories? Because they aren’t creating a “me” at the center - unless there is a thought about how this action will affect “me”. Can observing and deducing happen without thoughts?

Thoughts are part of the whole indivisible experience :). They point to existing things (i.e. gravity) and non-existing things (an “I”). The idea behind focusing on DE is to make that apparent. We use analogies to make things more comprehensible, but sometimes we also get lost in them. So, is there an “I” who has lost her clients, has no income, is somehow affected by it all, movie or not? Can thought think things out? Can thought do things?

The answer the other day - that yes, it can - was I suspect more thoughts now. The story of life without a story - a concept, because the reality is I don’t leave the story for very long. Yes, it gets put down for periods of time, but then it comes right back. So do I really know that - no, I don’t. I’d like to believe it, I do believe it - but that’s just another story.

Can colour appear without story? Can sound be heard without story? Does life depend on anything to happen?
Love
R

[Meredith57]

So, has anything changed in everyday experience? How is life these days?”

Good morning,

Yes, Rali things are very, very different in day-to-day life. With your help, the curtain is being pulled back - there is seeing - and with that, there is a greater sense of peace and spaciousness - and it’s more stable.

I’ll write more later on your questions. These questions are really helping to see.

Muchas gracias!!!!

[Meredith57]

Hola Rali,

“So, is there an “I” who has lost her clients, has no income, is somehow affected by it all, movie or not?”

There is no “I’’ that has lost her clients, etc. There is no “I” that is having this experience as Meredith. The experience is happening - but there is no solid “me” at the center of it. It’s just sight, sound, touch, taste, smell (all .ings), and thinking arising and passing away. No “I” that has her clients, an income so no “I” that can lose them. No “I” that has a reputation, no “I” to lose it. No “I” to live up to, no “I” to not live up to. Simply no “I”. There is just experiencing without the burden of “I”!

“Can thought think things out?”

Wow! Thought is not thinking things out - that’s another illusion. Just like “I” am not making decisions/choices. Thought appears after the fact, explaining what was already known or decided.

“Can thought do things?”

Thought can explain things that’s it. It doesn’t initiate action, choices, or anything. It seems like it does, but that was based on a false assumption - without looking. When looking it's obvious thought isn’t doing anything, it’s all happening, and thought comes in after to try and take credit but it’s not doing anything at all.

Thank you Rali

[poppyseed]

Good morning Meredith

Really good! I see things are getting cheerful :)

The experience is happening - but there is no solid “me” at the center of it.

Yes. All is happening — sensations, thoughts, etc. Is there a center to which they all happen? Is knowing/noticing of things located at a center? Where is the center situated?

Love
R

[Meredith57]

Good morning Rali,

Yes, more cheerfulness & more gratitude for your guidance.💓

“Is there a center to which they all happen? Is knowing/noticing of things located at a center? Where is the center situated?”

There was a noticing of a feeling in the stomach this morning, that feels like a center and feels like “me” - but when looking at it it’s just a physical sensation giving an illusion of something solid there at the center. The center is an illusion, which gives more weight to the illusion of separateness and “me.”

Knowing and noticing thoughts, feelings, hearing… I can’t even say where it’s happening, it’s that unlocalized. It’s just knowing/noticing - no pull in any direction - the absence of any pull, just knowing and noticing - I can’t say it any other way, because there is no smallness to it, no center to it, but it doesn’t even feel right to say it’s big, that’s making it something again. While it’s clear in seeing there is no center, there’s a loss of words to describe anything else - It’s literally indefinable.

There is no center to situate.

And if I can add some comments beyond the above question, but that relates to it all.

There is a sense of the illusion genuinely falling away - not because I found some new teacher, some new practice, some new way of explaining the world, but through seeing what is real.

The belief about what this was going to be is completely different to what it is that’s happening. There are no white lights, angels singing (lol!), feeling like floating through air- and yet there is a lightness to it all, a wonder because “I” am really not in control of this. Even this awakening stage, using the word “awakening” because there is still sleeping - going back and forth. But that’s not even as distressful, because there’s a knowing that “I” am not controlling this either. If a thought starts to take hold and the believing in Meredith arises again, there’s still a recognition that “I’m” not controlling that either. And in that recognition of not controlling that there is a relaxation, and the seeing again, but not with any fear or needing to get back (get back where???), just the seeing of the arising and passing away of Meredith.

And yet while there isn’t much resistance to whatever is arising, recognizing “I’m” not controlling this, there is still the thought that looking, meditating, writing with you is leading me closer - so I better stay on that - but how can that be? I’m not controlling this. Even this! It’s just thought trying to explain what’s happening. When the decision to go and meditate is made, it’s not “me” making something happen, it’s just the afterthought of a decision already made, giving rise to the illusion that “I” am making this happen. But “I’m” not making this happen either - none of it is “me.”

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
Great! Yes, there is no one here deciding and doing anything. Meditation happens when it happens. All is the flow of life.

I really loved what you wrote! Can you say that you are ready for the final questions?
Is there anything else you want to explore?
Love
R

[Meredith57]

Yes, ready for the final questions. However, can I ask you to send them Friday night (your time) please? I want to have a couple days of nothing on my calendar as there tends to be a lot of stunned silence and inactivity after seeing what you are pointing to, and I want to be able to sit with whatever comes.

With the deepest gratitude to you Rali.

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith

Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Love
R

[Meredith57]

Still here - just going through the questions slowly. :)

[Meredith57]

Still all good here. But I'm not sending back my answers yet as I am still working through them. I go through them each day, and am just seeing more and more, in such a good way, but I don't feel ready to send back anything yet. It's all good. Muchas gracias Rali!

[poppyseed]

Great! Take as much time as you need.
Love
R

[Meredith57]

“1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?”

There is no separate entity “self.” When thinking there is the illusion of a thinker and “me” as the thinker. Feelings/emotions follow giving a more solid feel to it, but whenever there is looking it is obvious there is no separate self, in any way, shape or form. A thought, simply a thought that led to the biggest delusion of all, that there was someone at the center of that thought and that was “me.” So convincing, so believable, and yet so utterly fictitious when looked for. It can never be found because it never existed. It was just a fleeting thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

A thought arises - me in the future, me in the past, me in the present. There has to be a “me” in the thought - the thought about how this will affect me, turn out for me, make me look, hurt me, help me…

When thinking about myself there is always a tightening in the body - a physical sensation and an emotion (a physical sensation plus a story - I'm sad, I'm mad...) it feels so solid as if you can feel the separation physically happening. There is just thinking and feeling physical sensations - very little (if any) awareness of anything else.

At the center of the thinking and feeling is the very strong sense of a little “me” - like there’s a little homunculus inside me that needs to be appeased, satisfied, consoled… that’s how real it feels. One thought leads to the next, they speed up, the physical sensations intensify - but that is all that is happening. Thinking and feeling. That’s it. The moment there is looking for the separate self, it cannot be found and in the looking the thoughts cease immediately, and the physical contraction starts to unwind.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels incredibly freeing. As though there has been this heavy weight that’s been released. It still arises but it doesn’t have the same power, the same intensity. It’s as though it slips in the gate but the moment it is slipping in there is a seeing there is no one slipping in the gate and it’s gone. There’s much less effort required in seeing the illusion as there was before. As though “I” had to really work at it to be convinced it was an illusion, to pull “myself’ out of it. Whereas now (as opposed to before we began this dialog and particularly in the past few weeks) it’s just a cursory noticing and seeing there is nothing there.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

What started to push me over was the exercise about choice. That was mind blowing. The idea that there really was no me making decisions was one you couldn’t have convinced “me” of in the past, not because there was any good evidence of seeing this, but another belief, another story.

The memory of the recognition, standing at the kitchen counter reaching for either tea or water, holding the thought flip your hand over and it not moving literally caused me to jump back as though there was some kind of black magic going on. Total shock that “I” was not making the decisions. I wasn’t really in control at all. In the past this would have been terrifying to know this, but it was just the opposite. There was laughter, realizing “I’m” not doing any of this. It’s all just happening, relax.

Even with all the work I had done previously looking at the illusion of a separate self, there was still this deeply held belief that “I” am doing all of this, “I” am choosing, “I” want to be enlightened! It’s so crazy because it’s so obvious now. How could “I” have even intellectually believed there was not a separate self but hang onto the idea that “I” am in control! It makes no sense!

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

It looks on the surface as though there is something making choices and decisions, that has free will, control, but in reality it is just millions, billions, trillions!! of different causes and conditions coming together in each moment. Like a billiard table - when one ball hits another ball and then that ball hits another ball - none of the balls have free will or are making a choice - each balls movement dependent on the forces of all the other objects on the table.

The “choice/decision” to get food coming from a feeling of hunger - a biological reaction. The remembering that “I” need to go to the market and “I” should wait because I also need to run an errand. The different thoughts, the hunger all leading to one direction or another - seemingly a choice being made but in reality billiard balls coming together and pushing this ball in one direction or another (and a thousand other conditions that there is just no awareness of).

The “decision” to sit down this morning to finish up these questions. I could say well “I have some free time this morning and I have had enough time to work through the questions, really seeing and experiencing, so it’s time to send my response so “I” am choosing to do this.”

But the reality is the free time this morning is the result of countless causes and conditions - the dogs aren’t sick, I'm not sick, no one has called for a last minute appointment, the neighbor didn’t rush over with a problem… There are so many causes and conditions in just this free time that pushed towards this moment of me sitting down writing.

The wanting to finish these answers the result of countless previous causes and conditions - the working through, the seeing, and finally being OK with the answer. There have been a few points where there was an unsettled feeling of there being nothing, it hasn’t been a continuous soft landing - because of course there is no landing and that has been an occasional stumbling block the past week. The mind wanted to think that through - but what about this, what about that…. And then yesterday the realization that it’s only a problem when “I” think about it. LOL! How many different causes and conditions going into that? Countless!

The fact that there is typing happening here and questions being answered is the result of countless causes and conditions. No problem if you want to call me out on the Buddhist language here. But seriously for decades studying Buddhism, being a Buddhist (ha!) and yes, intellectually attributing causes and conditions to the construction of “me.” - but not really believing it. Surely there was just something else - a divine me! Haha!

Each move forward (which appears as a choice/decision/free will/intention) is the result of countless previous causes and conditions all culminating in each moment. You could never even pinpoint just how many causes are involved - what others are doing or not doing, what the bees are doing, the insects, the scorpions!, the weather… it is literally endless.

The question of responsibility is an interesting one. On the one hand Meredith will be the recipient of the consequences of “her” actions but is she responsible? As bizarre as this answer sounds, no she’s not responsible. If Meredith isn’t making decisions how can she be responsible?

That doesn’t mean if “I’m”/Meredith not responsible for anything that all of a sudden “I’m” going to start acting like a jerk, lie, steal, etc. That would be a choice and there is no one here making the decisions.

All of the conditions so far have been pushing this billiard ball to not lie, steal, etc. So why would that change?

6) Anything to add?”

Things have changed - in some ways not that much on the outside but then in others in big ways. The quiet calm that is felt, is from really seeing - it is different from the quiet calm before - it is deeper, it is more stable.

While I said the point that pushed me was the thing about choice. But really it’s been the final questions. Because I still believed then that “something” other than me was making the choice - it was nice to let go of the wheel for a change - but there was still a belief (so very hidden I didn’t even notice it) that there was “something” making a choice. And yet, it’s all so very fluid. That’s why there’s nothing to attach to! It was all backwards, trying to let go of attachments, while hanging on to a belief there was something to attach to! It’s just hilarious!

Things are carrying on, and there are times when I kind of forget what’s true and what’s not, and yet I haven’t forgotten at all - I get how contradictory that sounds but it’s what’s happening. I’m just trying to explain that I’m not suggesting there is anyone here that is enlightened (of course, there is no one here to be enlightened!)! There is seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking - and the arising of the illusion of “me” sometimes but it’s different somehow. I can’t say how, but it is. There is still the experience of me - but it’s like a million layers of “stories” have been removed and it’s easier to move around and be. To let things unfold. It’s really more interesting, giving up the idea of thinking “I” know what is coming, "I" am making choices, etc.

There was a thought last week that well maybe this is all because everything seems to be going my way right now, I had to really think back to some things that definitely were not going my way and yet there was no disturbance around it.

I don’t know what else to say other than I am so truly grateful for your guidance. In 6 weeks you pushed out all the stories I had been telling myself for years, where I thought I was seeing but really just telling more stories. And those stories keeping me trapped in the lie. I asked for the truth and you showed it to me.

Love,
Meredith