Getting ego to cooperate

[Lala]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand that the person I take myself to be is nothing but a construct, a conditioned identity, and that my mind is constantly creating barriers for me to be able to see my true nature, which is something far greater. I feel the yearning within to see through the false self and understand that this is the true purpose of my life.

What are you looking for at LU? I have gotten to a point in my spiritual path where I’m starting to feel the need for some direct guidance, since I have recently started to see my own resistance to the process that is unfolding within me and I see the power that the mind has to distract me and to keep me from pursuing my meditation practice and do some serious inquiring. I am hoping that someone who has been through this process could give me some guidance or that the fact of being able to talk about what is going on with someone who understands it better than me might help my process somehow. The few people that I can talk to about this can do nothing but listen to me, but nobody around me can really understand what I am going through.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I honestly don’t know. As I am writing this, I’m thinking that this search for help might just be yet another trick of my mind to keep me from meditating and doing inquiry, which is what I know I should be doing. Part of me thinks I should be able to keep walking this path on my own and that the loneliness inherent to it can only help, but part of me also hopes to be able to accelerate this process somehow by getting some direct guidance. There are some concrete questions I have that might get answered, such as what exactly is meant when people say that there are no boundaries between me and everything else… I guess it might just be useful if I could interact with someone who knows that liberation is an actual possibility, so that it becomes more real in my mind and my ego has less power to undermine my efforts.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have been meditating for a few months, especially since April, when I got my eyes open to the truth of existence during a ceremony with ayahuasca. Up until about a month ago I was very serious about it and it became all I did during my free time, but then my parents came to visit and I got busier, so I am starting to have a lot of trouble getting myself to sit down and mediate. I have also tried inquiry several times but have gotten nothing from it. I’m sure I’m just not patient enough :-(

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Lala]

I want to add something. I realize that there is a belief which constitutes a big road block for me, which is the following: life is mostly just constant struggle, I experience existence as exhausting and continue to keep struggling simply because I don’t have a choice. Cognitively, I know that this is just a thought, that it’s not real, but I still believe it and it creates most if not all of my suffering. And I also believe deep down that I probably can’t get rid of it, so I might be destined to keep on suffering my whole life. There are times when this belief is not operating as strongly as other times, but it’s there. It’s quite a lot of resistance to deal with.

[Lala]

So I was just thinking about what I wrote yesterday and it seems clear that what I need to do is realize that I am not the one having these thoughts, that nobody is having them. I am able to believe that this is the case, but in the end it’s just one more belief, not something that I actually know from my own personal experience. I honestly just don’t get how to realize what I am (not). I can question thoughts and ask who I am, but who am I even asking this to? And I obviously don’t see the answer anywhere, so do I just go on asking and asking until it somehow clicks? I’ve also tried asking, like you suggest in the app, “am I really not separate from anything else?”. I ask and look. I keep on not noticing anything that could answer that question. Is it all about the persistence of asking for years and years until the answer makes itself seen?

[Lala]

Also, if I don’t exist and don’t have control over anything, does it really even matter whether I make efforts to awaken? Am I not deluding myself even more by thinking that if I do all these practices I will realize something? Isn’t realization just something that either happens or not, whether we look for it or not? I have heard of people awakening right after they gave up the search and then of others who claim that you can realize the truth for yourself thorough practices such as inquiry… this is a bit confusing; maybe it’s somehow about a balance or it’s just individual and everyone needs to find what works for them?

[Ilona]

Hi Lala,
Welcome to the forum, glad you made it here.
I can be your guide and assist you to untangle beliefs and point you to look at particular places until you see.
I hear you about life being a struggle and resistance to what is showing up. We can start here.

All I ask from you is to be honest and write what feels true.

First thing to say- this is not what you THINK. Mind has all kinds of ideas and expectations about what awakening is and should look like. So it’s not what you think at all.

It’s about seeing clearly in experience what is true.

If you are ready to start looking, can you share with me what words no separate self mean to you? How do you see it now?
(I know you answered that in the first question, but let’s go deeper.) right here right now, where is this separate self and how do you know it is here?

With love.

[Lala]

Dear Ilona,

First of all, thank you so much for your message! To be finally able to talk about what I’m experiencing feels like I got to an oasis in the middle of the desert. It’s crazy how different it is to be addressed directly compared to reading what others have been told, even if the message is very similar.

So to answer your question: I have a sense of there being a separate self for different reasons…

Wow :-)
I was about to start typing a list of very clear reasons that I thought I had, but suddenly my mind was silent. Suddenly words don’t seem very important. I’ll stay with this for a while and report back later.

Thank you!! 🙏

[Lala]

Ok, so I wish I could just sit here and contemplate all this stuff, but I have a lot to do (and I know life itself can be the best of teachers, so that’s ok), so I will tell you my impressions and how I’m trying to approach this, and perhaps you can let me know whether this makes sense / it’s effective:

More and more, I see that I can’t possibly be my body or my thoughts, even if most of the time it still feels like I am those; it just wouldn’t make any sense since my feeling of existence is not (exclusively) attached to either one of those. This then begs the question: what am I then? There must be something generating this feeling of existence or presence that I am so familiar with… so I get the conclusion (another thought) that, logically, if I am none of the objects that are perceived then I must be what’s perceiving them and the image of a camera comes to mind. I’m some kind of camera (?) watching the movie of this character’s life (so I’m just some freaky voyeur?! LOL) but where am I watching FROM? There is nothing else, no place else.

Ooooohhhh, so there is NOONE watching! That’s what means no separation? LOL!!! Whaaat??

By the way, thank you sooo much for writing me, as you can see it helps me enormously to imagine that I am talking with you, the internal dialogue helps me understand.

I will try to keep pondering this (with my body, not with my mind) while I continue doing my chores.

[Lala]

Hold on, I can’t leave this right now.
Ok.
So.

I can’t be watching from anywhere because there is nowhere else. It means I HAVE TO be here somewhere.
So where am I?

I am getting this kind of vibe that I should just keep looking for myself, ignoring all the possible conceptual answers that I “know” from reading or hearing. It’s like the feeling of the question is hanging in the air now, wow.

Does this sound like a good thing to do now? Just keep on going, living with this question in the air to see what comes up?

[Ilona]

Hi Lala,
Thank you for taking time to write!

More and more, I see that I can’t possibly be my body or my thoughts, even if most of the time it still feels like I am those; it just wouldn’t make any sense since my feeling of existence is not (exclusively) attached to either one of those. This then begs the question: what am I then? There must be something generating this feeling of existence or presence that I am so familiar with… so I get the conclusion (another thought) that, logically, if I am none of the objects that are perceived then I must be what’s perceiving them and the image of a camera comes to mind. I’m some kind of camera (?) watching the movie of this character’s life (so I’m just some freaky voyeur?! LOL) but where am I watching FROM? There is nothing else, no place else.

Ooooohhhh, so there is NOONE watching! That’s what means no separation? LOL!!! Whaaat??

Very good!
That’s the way to explore, you check in your own experience what is actually going on here.

Yes, no one is watching. No one is breathing, no one is being, and yet all of this is here.
Just like weather, there is no one controlling the wind, clouds, sun, and yet everything is.

Thoughts arise: there must be something generating feeling of existence.
And what is generating existence?

There is being (verb), knowing, being aware. What do you need to do in order to be?
Can you not be?

And yes, leave all the conceptual knowledge aside. This is about you. No one’s second hand descriptions will do here.

Explore questions here and write what comes up.
With love.

[Lala]

Thanks! Yes, I will definitely keep exploring!

It suddenly seems like this kind of exploration can be more fruitful than meditation. Or maybe both are needed? Meditation helps quiet the mind a bit, so that I get to notice something other than the thoughts, I guess?

What else would you say can be helpful? I guess this process is just unfolding on its own and I’m just having the impression of doing something to help it, but it does seem to make a difference whether I do something or don’t do anything… it’s so paradoxical. Does life after awakening become just a huge paradox? How do you experience life on a day to day basis, by the way?

[Ilona]

What’s helpful is to take a question asked and live with it for a day. Meditation is not needed.

Let’s talk about what happens after later, when all becomes clear. For now let’s focus on finding out what is actually going on here with this self - no self thing.

With love.

[Lala]

Dear Ilona,

I sent you a message from your website yesterday, so we might talk soon if you have time, but I need to write this right now anyway: as I have continued exploring over the past couple of days, I am increasingly getting a sense of acceptance, finding it easier and easier to let thoughts come and go without believing in them and slowly starting to realize how my body is just one more object in the field of vision. The feeling of there being an “I” somewhere persists but it seems to be getting weaker… does this sound plausible or could I be deluding myself? It just seems kind of suspicious that this shift in perspective could happen so fast and I have also heard that it’s usually more of a sudden realization rather than something progressive, but who knows? It can be different for everyone.
What I am experiencing feels natural and I don’t seem to be THINKING about it, it’s really just a perception thing. But I know the mind is cunning, so I’d rather just ask 😅

[Ilona]

Wonderful.
Yes the shift can be sudden or gradual, it’s unique to you. Just allow all to unfold as it wants. Great to hear that you notice more ease and acceptance.

How are you today? What are you noticing?
Let’s look at this. The thought my or mine comes up. Where is the owner? What is that claims ownership over objects, feelings thoughts or experience?

What do you truly own?

With love.

[Lala]

Thank you for your message.

Today I didn’t see it as clearly as yesterday, I had a busy day filled with interactions with different people, and I only manage to explore perceptions on quiet moments by myself. But I did notice that I was a bit more present than usual for the people I interacted with; just the fact of knowing that there is no me, even if I don’t fully see it yet, makes it easier to be there for others. Also, I noticed thoughts more and was better able to decide not to pay attention to them. And yet… there are so many basic thoughts that are really hard to ignore! For instance: as I was on the bus today, I realized that there was the imaginary image of my destination which created anticipation of me getting there, so there’s an implicit assumption that this place I’m going towards exists and that I will be there soon and so on… my destination exists only in my mind at that moment and yet I can’t help believing that it exists because experience has taught me that it does. Are these kinds of implicit “thoughts” something I should explore too?

[Lala]

Dear Ilona,

Never mind my last post. Today I tried to explore the question you last suggested, about what I truly own. At first I had a hard time feeling into the question, but now I’ve seen that I don’t own anything. Nothing at all. Not even my memories, which are also just thoughts. Everything has always just been an illusion. It’s depressing.