Need help

[ripper91]

Conditioning is responding to environment, thats whats going on all day everyday.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ripper,

From what iv seen everything is happening on autopilot, thoughts respond to circumstances and another thought arises if and how i should react,

Yes. This is the biggest breakthrough. So how can we develop a more adaptive relationship with our thoughts?

But iv only saw that 2-3 times, still getting lost in minds chatter

Yes, that will continue to happen, although less and less and less intensely. Remember to laugh as a celebration of the recognition that this has happened. We are establishing new neuronal pathways in the brain and allowing old ones to weaken. It takes time and practise.

i thought maybe some subtle shift already happened,

Yes. they are more likely to be subtle and progressive.

but im getting less and less aware.

Say more about this...

but thought about the past are whole different beast because future didn't happen but past did. Maybe you can elaborate on this

When I woke up (back in 2011) it wasn’t at Liberation Unleashed. It wasn’t through the portal of no-self.
It was the culmination of 43 years of obsessive seeking.
I had tried religion, hypnotherapy, gestalt therapy, rebirthing, encounter groups, meditation, yoga, adviata, Autolysis, and other things that I don’t even remember now.
When it happened it was in a single conversation. In fact it was a single line in that conversation.
Searching the web I had come across this bloke in America (Eric Gross) and that line was when he told me that “the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while I keep scratching it.”
WHAM! In that moment, I know that I couldn’t be awake and still be a seeker.
I had to give up the identifying with being a seeker in order to be awake.
Being awake meant accepting whatever was present NOW.
Nothing could happen in the future.
All happenings were NOW…
Then the realisation that they weren’t being seen in real time. That seeing was always lagging real time by milliseconds. That what was noticed was already done. Finished. …and WHAM!! Another realisation.. They’re finished. They can’t be changed, so wishing them to be different was only adding something that at the very least confused the seeing and quite possibly corrupted it to the point of intense distortion.
This meant not only was it smart to surrender willingly to whatever was noticed, but any other recourse was maladaptive. Stupid even.
THIS IS IT became a catchphrase. It said it all.
The seeking had stopped, but there was searching the Web for like minded others to communicate with, when around a week later I came across Liberation Unleashed.
The first thing that they asked me was if a self existed as an inherently separate entity. What a ridiculous question (I thought) Although I hadn’t considered it, the obvious answer was that there was only stories about Vince.
They asked me if an experiencer was necessary to experience something. This one I had to consider for a moment, but again it was obvious that only experiencing happened.

i feel i need a little bit more than 2 days for that.

Take all of the time that you need.

i thought i maybe shoud get Lisa Kahale book to have more tools that could speed up the process, James Anderson who suppose to be my original guide also have a book.

Ah, it was James that quizzed me when i first came to LU. i haven't read his book, but found his approach a little too "non dual" for my taste.
Lisa, on the other hand, i am more familiar with as i was her guide. i see no problems with you reading her book. Just bring anything that comes up back here.

Conditioning is responding to environment, thats whats going on all day everyday.

Yes, and we are conditioned when the responses become automatic.

with love

vince

[ripper91]

Good evening.

Yes. This is the biggest breakthrough. So how can we develop a more adaptive relationship with our thoughts?

Hmm, thats a tricky question, i guess by being more aware of whats popping up, and maybe categhorising them?
Like future projections -garbage, replays from the past - garbage, gotta eat something - ok, thats useful:)

Yes, that will continue to happen, although less and less and less intensely. Remember to laugh as a celebration of the recognition that this has happened. We are establishing new neuronal pathways in the brain and allowing old ones to weaken. It takes time and practise.

I thought i should laugh with only negative thought patterns, ok im gonna change that from now.

Yes. they are more likely to be subtle and progressive.

Fine by me:)

Say more about this...

If im not meditating for longer time and dont read anything like enlightening quotes, im getting less aware of awerness itself if thats make sense, thats also the reason why i want some additional tools, couse it feels like im making som e steps forward and then steps back.

When it happened it was in a single conversation. In fact it was a single line in that conversation.
Searching the web I had come across this bloke in America (Eric Gross) and that line was when he told me that “the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while I keep scratching it.”
WHAM! In that moment, I know that I couldn’t be awake and still be a seeker.
I had to give up the identifying with being a seeker in order to be awake.
Being awake meant accepting whatever was present NOW.
Nothing could happen in the future.
All happenings were NOW…
Then the realisation that they weren’t being seen in real time. That seeing was always lagging real time by milliseconds. That what was noticed was already done. Finished. …and WHAM!! Another realisation.. They’re finished. They can’t be changed, so wishing them to be different was only adding something that at the very least confused the seeing and quite possibly corrupted it to the point of intense distortion.
This meant not only was it smart to surrender willingly to whatever was noticed, but any other recourse was maladaptive. Stupid even.
THIS IS IT became a catchphrase. It said it all.
The seeking had stopped, but there was searching the Web for like minded others to communicate with, when around a week later I came across Liberation Unleashed.

Thank you for sharing your story, its pretty cool, and mosquito analogy is very helpful.

Ah, it was James that quizzed me when i first came to LU. i haven't read his book, but found his approach a little too "non dual" for my taste.
Lisa, on the other hand, i am more familiar with as i was her guide. i see no problems with you reading her book. Just bring anything that comes up back here.

Ok i started reading Helen Hamilton "Dissolving the ego", so far shes suggesting to practice being more aware of our true nature("Noumenon" she calls it) as often as possible, nothing new worth discussing so far.

[ripper91]

Question pops up in the mind, how do you view seeking and resistance relationship? Both gotta drop at the same time?
Last awekening i stopped seeking, but there was some resistance left, probably just tiny bit but it get stronger over time.
There was no doubt that theres no me, but total acceptance of what is without slightest bit of resistance didnt happen.
So its not always No-Self-No resistance kind of deal i guess?
I was seeking to see that theres no me but i wasnt seeking no-resistance.
When minds conditioning is too strong and resisting patterns keeps popping up it can recreate belief in "Me".

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ripper,

how do you view seeking and resistance relationship? Both gotta drop at the same time?

For me they did. ..but then i was lucky in that i fell through the portal of acceptance. THIS IS IT! meant that it was futile to want anything to be different.
Now, i say that they both happened together, but the reality was that old habits kept coming around for a while. They reduced in frequency and intensity in a progressive manner over the months after the initial epiphany.

Last awekening i stopped seeking, but there was some resistance left,

Yes, there is the seeing and there is the ramifications from it. i think that you stopped too soon. ..before it established.

I was seeking to see that theres no me but i wasnt seeking no-resistance.

Seeing that there is no inherently separate self definitely is a portal, but by itself can lead to nihilism. (an existential black hole)
The thing with believing that a self is running the show, is that the self has to assume responsibility for things that it has no control over. Your resistance appears to be tied to a feeling of helplessness. (maybe)

When minds conditioning is too strong and resisting patterns keeps popping up it can recreate belief in "Me".

Yes. Absolutely. The moment we become uncertain we revert to old habits, which quickly reassert themselves.
Don't worry, we'll make sure that you are properly cooked this time.

how can we develop a more adaptive relationship with our thoughts?

Hmm, thats a tricky question, i guess by being more aware of whats popping up, and maybe categhorising them?

That works. i put thoughts into one of three categories. 1. useful thoughts. 2. entertaining thoughts. 3. rubbish thoughts.
Useful thoughts seem to make up 5% of the total.
Entertaining thoughs vary but say 10%
Which leaves most thoughts in the 'waste of space' category.
Now it sounds like i have a conflicting relationship with the rubbish thoughts, but i don't. They are like the weather. i am friendly towards them, but don't engage with them unless there is a compelling reason.
They flow through in the background like the hum of the refrigerator. i simply don't get involved. (usually)

I thought i should laugh with only negative thought patterns, ok im gonna change that from now.

Good stuff. Yes, celebrate the recognition that you were lost in the content of the thought stream whether pleasant or unpleasant.

If im not meditating for longer time and dont read anything like enlightening quotes, im getting less aware of awerness itself if thats make sense,

Yes, it makes sense. Keeping this stuff active is the best way to establish new habits.

it feels like im making som e steps forward and then steps back.

Ha yes. It's not really linear. It's not a process or a state. It will come and go for a while. ..and deepening will continue while you are alive. (so no finish point)

so far shes suggesting to practice being more aware of our true nature

Sounds good. What is our "true nature"?

with love

vince

[ripper91]

Your resistance appears to be tied to a feeling of helplessness. (maybe)

Yes i agree, i see now how important is not to hide anything, you know whats going on straight away.

Yes, it makes sense. Keeping this stuff active is the best way to establish new habits.

I had some stuff to deal with lately, but im gonna have more time for about a week to focus more, and spending more time on reading, inquirying and contemplating.

Ha yes. It's not really linear. It's not a process or a state. It will come and go for a while. ..and deepening will continue while you are alive. (so no finish point)

Yes, im going to continue excercises for as long as it makes sense and a bit more just in case, i gotta develop a habit of recognition.

That works. i put thoughts into one of three categories. 1. useful thoughts. 2. entertaining thoughts. 3. rubbish thoughts.
Useful thoughts seem to make up 5% of the total.
Entertaining thoughs vary but say 10%
Which leaves most thoughts in the 'waste of space' category.
Now it sounds like i have a conflicting relationship with the rubbish thoughts, but i don't. They are like the weather. i am friendly towards them, but don't engage with them unless there is a compelling reason.
They flow through in the background like the hum of the refrigerator. i simply don't get involved. (usually)

Recognitions happen, still a lot less that i would like but hopefully there will be gradual progress, im forgetting to categorize, but im gonna be on it more this week.

Sounds good. What is our "true nature"?

For me word "Knowing" resonates most and seems closest to the truth, or i like "unlocated awareness" also.

Thanks again for doing this, you definetely know your stuff, i have hope we can make it as long as you willing to continue for as long as its gonna be necesarry.
Im gonna be reading more so im gonna most likely post some questions. In the meantime we could elaborate on some other topic, maybe on "emptiness" concept, it always seemed useless to me, like unnecesarry philosophy, do you think it may be helpful or its more of "mental masturbation"?
If you prefer a certain order of things im obv open also.

[ripper91]

Don't worry, we'll make sure that you are properly cooked this time.

I love to hear that, lets get it!

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ripper,

Recognitions happen, still a lot less that i would like

You will get better at it with practice. There will come a point where it will be so normal that it is hardly noticed.

im gonna have more time for about a week to focus more, and spending more time on reading, inquirying and contemplating.

It's really important that you are relaxed about it. Persistence is valuable, but effort is counterproductive.

i gotta develop a habit of recognition.

Excellent intention. Now relax and let it happen.

For me word "Knowing" resonates most

Ha, I know that I know nothing. (sound flippant, but isn't)
It's a tricky one to describe. Knowing is right but it doesn't involve information.
It's not that we know stuff, but rather that we are content with questions that don't need (or can't) be answered.
The how and the why of anything can only be speculated on. The actuality of them is a mystery. A mystery in that the complexity is so great that it's impossible to be categorical about any of it.

i have hope we can make it as long as you willing to continue for as long as its gonna be necesarry.

No worries there. i am here for as long as it takes.
i have no agenda or time constraints. I'm not goal obsessed. i have no control over what happens. I'm just here for the ride.

with love

vince

[ripper91]

Good evening.

Ha, I know that I know nothing. (sound flippant, but isn't)
It's a tricky one to describe. Knowing is right but it doesn't involve information.
It's not that we know stuff, but rather that we are content with questions that don't need (or can't) be answered.
The how and the why of anything can only be speculated on. The actuality of them is a mystery. A mystery in that the complexity is so great that it's impossible to be categorical about any of it.

Thats confusing to me, what you mean we are content, i thought we rather a container for the content, its gonna be easier for me to understand if you could find simpler words in your vocabulary(avoid words like "flippant","categorical","speculated" i understand but for example "thinking about" will be more straight forward), not that i cannot google it but somehow it doesnt land right even when i can get a meaning of it, its like your mosquito thing, right word and right metaphores makes a difference, im from Poland i i dont speak any english in my everyday life.
Im sorry for telling you how to speak, feeling bit wierd about it, but closer you get to this kinda philosofical language, the more confusion it brings, and i think we are aiming for a clarity, i read it multiple times and im still not sure if i get what you mean:)

Anyway, so whats the right word for True Nature in your opinion?

As for other things, im continuing reading Helen Hamilton book, next practice is being aware of silence, i think its a good one, makes sense to me, Silence is a "room" for sound like awarness is a room for all experience. With that emptiness concept arose again in the mind, makes a bit more sense after i reead about silence, emptiness as a space for objects.
Good old "Emptiness is a form" comes to mind to think about, its confusing also, but i think that the essence is that everything is awareness, emptiness=awareness and silence=awareness, i will keep this in mind and try to be aware of both as often as possible. Of course im still continuing categorising and smiling, its still hard but i guess as long as i dont stop thing get better with that, we will see.I gonna mix that with relaxation as you suggest, like trying to relax multiple times a day and with that recongnitions should happen easier and maybe automatically with time.

I also thought if i should read a book about "Stoicism", its basically about responding calmly to any circumstances, so i thought it could help with my resistance problem, but on the other hand it tells you how should you respond, and we dont want any "shoulds", whats your opinion on that?

It's really important that you are relaxed about it. Persistence is valuable, but effort is counterproductive.

I dont see it as effort, repetition is mother of clarity they say, and i like reading, i got few good books so im sure its gonna be helpfull, more pointers=more moments of recognition, im not reading like a robot im trying to feel and experience every pointer and checking my experience with every inquiry question, and there will be stuff worth discussing with you also im sure.

[ripper91]

Oh yes, and another thing, spiritual "ego" is starting to build up, like this thoughts starts to appear that theres gonna be awekened "me" in the future, and they are getting more frequent, maybe its not such a bad thing couse im aware its just a story for most part, and same thing happened before my last awekening, it started just like now and awakening happen few days later, but i was on it night and day like i told you i was extremely depressed and i approached it as life or death kind of thing. Its intense now also but not to that degree.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ripper,

Thats confusing to me, what you mean we are content,

Yes, English is a crazy language. Content can mean the content of a container. Said slightly differently, content and it means satisfied.
The lion slept contentedly as the contents of it's stomach...

Im sorry for telling you how to speak, feeling bit wierd about it,

No worries, I intend to use more easily understood words.

i read it multiple times and im still not sure if i get what you mean:)

Ha, even those with a good grasp of English have trouble with this stuff.
You used the word "knowing" when I asked what is our 'true nature'.
It has a ring of truth about it, but it isn't the kind of knowing where someone holds information in memory.
It's more a sense of being relaxed about that which is a mystery.
i know that I don't need facts to navigate life-ing. (although they can be entertaining)

With that emptiness concept arose again in the mind

(this is why I guide. It makes me dig deep..) You're right, it is a concept. It's the absence of everything. (which of course is impossible)
I have understood it as pointing to the absence of inherent thing-ness.
That is a box doesn't have inherent boxness. It's boxness is projected by the experiencer (who is also a concept)
A person doesn't have any inherent controller. etc.

if i should read a book about "Stoicism",

No. You move away from what we are looking to discover when you imagine that you can choose to DO something. You will get better at remaining calm... It will happen as a side affect to this investigation.

spiritual "ego" is starting to build up,

Recognizing that this is happening is a great start. The next thing is to not have an opinion (judgement) about that. Let me know how you go with this..

with love

vince

[ripper91]

Good evening.

No worries, I intend to use more easily understood words.

Ok, i thought maybe you forgot, i cant expect you to know which word im familiar with and which not, but im happy you keeping that in mind.

Ha, even those with a good grasp of English have trouble with this stuff.
You used the word "knowing" when I asked what is our 'true nature'.
It has a ring of truth about it, but it isn't the kind of knowing where someone holds information in memory.
It's more a sense of being relaxed about that which is a mystery.
i know that I don't need facts to navigate life-ing. (although they can be entertaining)

Now thats clear:) We are on the same page here, i got similar ideas about what "Knowing" means in that context.

(this is why I guide. It makes me dig deep..) You're right, it is a concept. It's the absence of everything. (which of course is impossible)
I have understood it as pointing to the absence of inherent thing-ness.
That is a box doesn't have inherent boxness. It's boxness is projected by the experiencer (who is also a concept)
A person doesn't have any inherent controller. etc.

You mean like empty of qualities? Box just is, things just are, its not actually a box but just a percieved colors, everything is empty in reality without us conceptualizing things?

No. You move away from what we are looking to discover when you imagine that you can choose to DO something. You will get better at remaining calm... It will happen as a side affect to this investigation.

Thats what i expect you to say, ok no self-improvement!

Recognizing that this is happening is a great start. The next thing is to not have an opinion (judgement) about that. Let me know how you go with this.

Ill just wait to see how it unfolds, like i said im not happy that it pops up but it also could be a sign of progress, im not fighting it, trying to be aware that its just a story rather succesfully i would say.

Im continuing to read Helen Hamilton, and a little bit of Spira, its doing its job, Helen suggest to practice being aware of different aspects of True Nature, in additional to silence now also Sense of being, stillness and presence.
Also started to read Rupert Spira "You are hapiness you seek" and its also provoking more awareness with great pointers.
Feeling more aware today after morning reading session, even close to awake i would say, will continue with that.
I had my own insight also, that by not being in my True Nature im denying God in a sense.

Its a bit different approach so far, more awareing than confirming theres no "I" so far, your suggestions and what im reading its mostly same ideas/practices, i dont spend much time on enlightening quotes, just books for now.
We will be pondering "I" later? Im curious whats the Plan, but if you prefer not to tell and just do your thing, im cool with that also:)

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ripper,

You mean like empty of qualities? Box just is, things just are, its not actually a box but just a percieved colors, everything is empty in reality without us conceptualizing things?

Exactly. This is a big one. You might notice that a lot of labels (cup, box, etc) have a purpose in the name. example; a cup is for containing liquid. A box is an enclosure. ..but the really big thing about seeing this is that we take 'ownership' (when I put things in single inverted commas it is because the word hasn't a literal meaning.) of our projections. We recognize that what we perceive (experience through our senses) is 100% our own interpretation. It has little to do with what is actually 'out there'. It has everything to do with our conditioning and current circumstances.

Thats what i expect you to say, ok no self-improvement!

Very good. That removes one source of resistance.

Ill just wait to see how it unfolds, like i said im not happy that it pops up

Ok. Accept that "not happy" and celebrate that you recognize that you are expressing some story (about why you aren't happy)

Helen suggest to practice being aware of different aspects of True Nature, in additional to silence now also Sense of being, stillness and presence.

Ah, glad that you've brought that here. I'm happy for you to experience silence and stillness, but that sense of being and presence need examination. What do you find when you focus on them?

I had my own insight also, that by not being in my True Nature im denying God in a sense.

This is a worry. By being in, or not in, your true nature (why did you capitalize them?) you are identifying with something. What you actually are is a big mystery. How can you identify with something unknown?
Is God more than a concept?

Im curious whats the Plan,

The plan is to help you recognize the concepts that you take to be actual. To kill any identification. To invite life in it's fullness through a welcoming surrender to what is offered.
..but there is no plan how to achieve this. i just keep responding to what you offer and we will get there.

with love

vince

[ripper91]

Ah, glad that you've brought that here. I'm happy for you to experience silence and stillness, but that sense of being and presence need examination. What do you find when you focus on them?

Presence its just what is in experience, that experiencing(percieving, feeling) is going on and its just is.
Sense of being is a tricky one, its more like existing, when im trying to focus on it i notice sensations and energy in the body, so i guess it could suggest that subcontiously its related to "I am the body" idea, when i examine this closely i see just phenomena appearing in awareness, but it could be that i have lack of clarity in that aspect.

This is a worry. By being in, or not in, your true nature (why did you capitalize them?) you are identifying with something. What you actually are is a big mystery. How can you identify with something unknown?
Is God more than a concept?

I dont have cocept of God as a entity, God is everything and his(or "Its") nature is love, thats what i experience on 5-meo-dmt, its called also "God molecule" for a reason, after multiple times when i was finally able to surrender fully that was my experience, pure love and i was crying like a baby for like half hour.

So im still practicing recognitions, it getting a bit better, happens more often, and im trying to be aware of being aware, so now im reading Spira and Hamilton and they both suggest that we are awareness, but i read long time ago somwhere that its a trap also, that any identification of that which is aware(even if its not a person) or of awareness itself is still identification, whats your take on that?

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ripper,

Presence its just what is in experience, that experiencing(percieving, feeling) is going on and its just is.

Ok, I call that THIS.
i worry about calling it "presence" as it can easily be taken to mean something independent or separate.

Sense of being is a tricky one, its more like existing, when im trying to focus on it i notice sensations and energy in the body, so i guess it could suggest that subcontiously its related to "I am the body" idea, when i examine this closely i see just phenomena appearing in awareness, but it could be that i have lack of clarity in that aspect.

I think that you have an excellent take on it. You don't lack clarity. It is just an idea.
An idea that comes from applying meaning to the sensations. It is a SENSE of self. It just feels like it belongs.

I dont have cocept of God as a entity,

Good.

God is everything

Ok. ..and if God is everything (which I agree with) then it includes you. Right?
If it includes you (and everything and everybody) why give it a name that suggests something separate or independent?
Isn't THIS a better name for the totality of your experiencing?

that was my experience, pure love and i was crying like a baby for like half hour.

I have experienced (my version of) this. ..but it was you that was pure love. Not anything apart.
Remember, these experiences are just that. Experiences. They point to something, but in and of themselves they are impermanent and always end.

so now im reading Spira and Hamilton and they both suggest that we are awareness, but i read long time ago somwhere that its a trap also, that any identification of that which is aware(even if its not a person) or of awareness itself is still identification, whats your take on that?

Exactly what you said.
Awareness (like God) invites identification.
This is what I was saying about James Anderson, the advaita (non dual) stuff leads into this trap.
Can you see how it invites identification?

with love

vince