Greetings!

[Anastacia42]

Good. Exactly. Now let's bring it together a bit:


Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving,
Stacy

[Iconoclast]

Hi Stacy,

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

No, the content of the thoughts are not known.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

There is only color and a thought about 'apple'.
In actual experience 'apple' cannot be found. Apple exists only in memory/thought. Without recourse to memory, there is only color etc. and no 'apple'.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known.

However, is an apple actually known?

In the milisecond before any mental interpretation happens (i.e. in direct experience), there is only color, smell, sensation etc.

In direct experience an apple is not known. An 'apple' comes into play when memory/thought says the experienced features denote an 'apple'.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Can you see that "self" is the same as "apple?" Just a label, a made-up story?

You have seen that "self" is no more real than Santa Claus, right? You don't have to keep staring at the man getting into a red suit to know this. You know it. You can't un-know it. Right?

Much love,
Stacy

[Iconoclast]

The self is conceptual too.
In direct experience there is only sensations, feelings, thoughts arising.
However thought/memory comes in and a sense of self is created in miliseconds.

I can comprehend this in a technical sense, however I don't know if this can be called "seeing".

If it's ok for you, I want to return to the apple exercise and ask certain things about that.
I feel that I need further clarity on that.

[Iconoclast]

Now re apple exercise

"Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known."

In direct experience the taste is known and the memory classifies it as an "apple" in a milisecond based on past experiences and social, linguistic consensus.

When we say there is no apple in direct experience,

it seems we mean that a taste is experienced but it has no name. Right?
What is the point in saying this? Why do we say this?

Either it has a name or not, eventually it is a taste "known".
...

Memory is a necessary part of human life and through memory we "know" that it is an apple.
Things happen so fast and compactly that I can't see how memory isn't part of our direct experience.

I know that in this forum's jargon memory is considered "not direct experience", I try to understand that in order to be able to "see", however deep down I've realized that I perceive things quite differently in my subconscious, therefore I might need to work on this apple exercise for weeks maybe to exhaust all my inner counter-feelings about it.

In my view everything (perception) happens in a milisecond and memory is also part of our direct perceptive processes.

I think sensation and naming are one big whole. I am not sure if they can be separated.

[Iconoclast]

"There is only color and a thought about 'apple'.
In actual experience 'apple' cannot be found. Apple exists only in memory/thought. Without recourse to memory, there is only color etc. and no 'apple'."

This is what I wrote to you yesterday re apple exercise.

I still "agree" with it as long as we suppose we can differentiate between sensation and memory.

However when I look at it more closely, I ask: Can sensation and memeory really be separated from each other?
They are so intermingled that memory seems to be "part of our direct perceptive processes".

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

I think sensation and naming are one big whole. I am not sure if they can be separated.

The problem is right there in the first 2 made up words/concepts "I" and "think." Ignore thinking for this purpose.

Do not make the mistake of confusing the relative with the absolute.

In the absolute, there is no "you," no one to die, decide, intend or make a choice.

In the relative? If "you" step out in front of a bus, you will die. But that is different. When you SEE, you must deal with these paradoxes.

Here is a pointer on what is called "memory." Remember, in the Absolute, NOW is all there is. No future. No past. In the relative, the story world, the made up world, we can play like there is, but it is not Direct Experience.

For every pointer, and when your mind makes up its illusory objections, please remember to CHECK YOUR GUT FEELING for truth or lie. You know how to do that now. It is vital to this exploration.

For example, check this, does your gut feel tight or loose when you say or read this:

Memory is a necessary part of human life...

Take your time and be honest with this.

Memory Exercise

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?

What is the memory ‘made of’?

WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?


You are correct. You are not SEEING. If you were, it would be very clear that this is not "jargon" at all, but a more accurate way of using words, which are all essentially made up and inaccurate.

Loving,

~ Stacy

[Iconoclast]

Hi Stacy,

Tyvm for your detailed explanations and questions, I'll write to you tomorrow after I meditate on the questions you sent.

Love

Ico

[Anastacia42]

Yw.

Very good.

[Iconoclast]

Hi Stacy,

"I think sensation and naming are one big whole. I am not sure if they can be separated."
The problem is right there in the first 2 made up words/concepts "I" and "think." Ignore thinking for this purpose.

Do not make the mistake of confusing the relative with the absolute.

In the absolute, there is no "you," no one to die, decide, intend or make a choice.

In the relative? If "you" step out in front of a bus, you will die. But that is different. When you SEE, you must deal with these paradoxes.

Here is a pointer on what is called "memory." Remember, in the Absolute, NOW is all there is. No future. No past. In the relative, the story world, the made up world, we can play like there is, but it is not Direct Experience.

I see.

For every pointer, and when your mind makes up its illusory objections, please remember to CHECK YOUR GUT FEELING for truth or lie. You know how to do that now. It is vital to this exploration.

For example, check this, does your gut feel tight or loose when you say or read this:

Memory is a necessary part of human life...
Take your time and be honest with this.

I’ve tried it and haven’t felt anything specific (or maybe I haven’t been aware of what I felt?). It seems I'm not in a good contact with bodily responses re gut feeling.

I’ll write responses to your other questions in the next post today.

Love

Ico

[Iconoclast]

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?

Memory is a faculty that retrieves information from previous experiences.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

It is made of thoughts/images.

WHEN does the memory appear?

When we "think" about smth.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

A memory thought is different in the sense that it is about smth that happened in the past.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

A memory thought is known to refer to smth that has happened when we have a compelling “thought-Feeling” that this thing “really” happened some time (in the past).

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Imagination.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Now.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

A future thought is about smth that hasn’t happened yet but could happen later.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

A future thought is known to refer to smth that will possibly happen when it is neither happening "now" or it hasn’t happened in the "past".

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

The thoughts about past is about smth thas happened and the thoughts about future are about things that haven’t happened yet.

The difference between the two is known via Memory.

You are correct. You are not SEEING. If you were, it would be very clear that this is not "jargon" at all, but a more accurate way of using words, which are all essentially made up and inaccurate.

Thank you for this clarification.

Love

Ico

[Iconoclast]

A future thought is known to refer to smth that "will" possibly happen when: it is neither happening "now" nor it has happened in the "past".

[Anastacia42]

Okay...

Go through this again and reply only with Direct Experience as you were instructed to do in the Colored Socks exercise.

Right now, your replies are nothing more than thoughts about thoughts and they are not Direct Experience

Good luck!

Stacy

[Iconoclast]

Hi Stacy,

I am very sad to say this but I did it a few more times and came up with the same responses.
I don't know if there is another way for me to see what is "seeing", and what is "direct experience"?
Are there "easier" exercises that even I can do?

Love

Ico

[Anastacia42]

Hmm, okay, this is where you're stuck.

(or maybe I haven’t been aware of what I felt?). It seems I'm not in a good contact with bodily responses re gut feeling.

This is important. Keep looking for Sensations in your gut & let me know if any come up.


Seeing is literally SEEING with your eyes. Exactly as was described in Colored Socks. Not difficult or mysterious. Very simple.

Again, your only problem is that you believe your thoughts & you don't LOOK with your eyes.

Direct Experience was explicitly defined in Colored Socks. Here it is again:

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

It doesn't get any easier than that.

Here is the only exercise I was given here when I was guided. I call it ButtChair.


Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


I did this for a couple of months & saw.

Let me know how it goes.

Loving,

Stacy