EllejBee ad nauseum

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:52 pm

Hi Lisa,

Like the world doesn't work anything like I have assumed.
Yes.


Constant effort, constant thoughts that are IMPORTANT to do do, do things. And not look. That's what happens.

Really?
Is this true? Do you see thoughts doing things?
Can thoughts do anything at all?




So the absence of ‘I’ is a something that can do noticing?

No, that doesn't sound right. Nobody is noticing but there is noticing?

Ha! Don't ask me :-) Look and you will See how things are really working.


is noticing happening?

Is a somebody needed for noticing happening?

Is there an ‘I’ doing noticing?


Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘I’ within the “I” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of an 'I'?

There's the habit of "I". It's a lazy habit, and easy out. A convenient label for the thoughts. And then the label is assumed to be true.



What is a habit of 'I'? Is it anything real?

Is ‘I’ a label for thoughts? Or is it the other way around, that this idea of an ‘I’ is only a thought?

Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘I’ within the “I” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of an 'I'?






Please answer all the questions in blue. Don't skip:-)


Looking forward to your answers


Trisha
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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ElleBee
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby ElleBee » Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:20 am

Hi again Trisha!
Constant effort, constant thoughts that are IMPORTANT to do do, do things. And not look. That's what happens.

Really?
Is this true? Do you see thoughts doing things?
Can thoughts do anything at all?
This is how I have assumed it works. It doesn't actually, and it all looks ridiculous when I stop to actually look at the assumptions going on.
is noticing happening?
Yeah. It's all noticing. And then thoughts and labeling the noticing.
Is a somebody needed for noticing happening?
Thoughts come that say "yes". But they are just thoughts. There's no evidence that there's anything behind these thoughts, they just show up. Thoughts are referring to an "I" that is also a thought. Thoughts aren't real, thoughts can't be detected through the senses. A thought is needed for noticing happening? No, that is not a true.
Is there an ‘I’ doing noticing?
"I" cannot find one. "I" only find thoughts.
What is a habit of 'I'? Is it anything real?
It's thoughts. Thoughts aren't real, I don't know what they are. Unreal? And yet they appear to occur.
Is ‘I’ a label for thoughts? Or is it the other way around, that this idea of an ‘I’ is only a thought?
Yes, "I" is a thought about thoughts as near as I can tell. Which came first? The thoughts or The Thought of "I"? No idea, it must have happened very long ago. Is The Thought of "I" more important than other thoughts? Not possible if all thoughts are unreal. Then the thought of "I" is not greater or lesser than any other thoughts. How important is a thought?
Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘I’ within the “I” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of an 'I'?
It's only a sense. "I" have been watching the thoughts. Especially when answering these questions, as I mentioned earlier. This is all thoughts coming in, supplying the answers. Thoughts come in and say "I" am answering the questions. But I look, and it is thoughts about an "I". No "I" really. "I" cannot point to an "I". "I" cannot even point to general thoughts.


Thank you Trisha!

Lisa

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:50 pm

HI Lisa,

This is how I have assumed it works. It doesn't actually, and it all looks ridiculous when I stop to actually look at the assumptions going on.

Assuming - believing - thinking this is all the same.

The mind is a labelling machine, that labels any experience as soon as it is perceived.

Can you see this?


So, what is real?

Look, would anything real disappear when you stop assuming-believing-thinking in it?

Is a somebody needed for noticing happening?

Thoughts come that say "yes". But they are just thoughts. There's no evidence that there's anything behind these thoughts, they just show up. Thoughts are referring to an "I" that is also a thought. Thoughts aren't real, thoughts can't be detected through the senses. A thought is needed for noticing happening? No, that is not a true.


Lisa, all this is describing the thoughts….. we are not interested.

Thoughts are real, they do come up, they are as real as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching/sensing.

But their content is not real…….

Is Batman real?
Are unicorns real?
Is Santa real?


It's only a sense. "I" have been watching the thoughts. Especially when answering these questions, as I mentioned earlier. This is all thoughts coming in, supplying the answers. Thoughts come in and say "I" am answering the questions. But I look, and it is thoughts about an "I". No "I" really. "I" cannot point to an "I". "I" cannot even point to general thoughts.

Yes, you are sensing something, this sensing is real, it is the sense of being, aliveness, amness…...


Close your eyes and find this feeling that is always there, this sense of being, living.

Now notice the labelling and the thoughts and their content coming up after the experience, labelling this experience of feeling/sensing aliveness and beingness as ‘I’ or ‘me’.


Is there an ‘I’ that is doing breathing, like I am breathing? or is ‘breathing happening’?




LOOK, in direct experience, what can you SEE?


Can a separate self, a ‘you’ an entity be found anywhere?

Is a ‘you’ needed for seeing/hearing/smelling/thinking happening?

Is a ‘you’ found that is doing/managing ‘your’ life, doing decisions?

Is ‘I’ more than just a thought?




Take time, don't give thought up answers, only share what is really seen.


Sending you love


Trisha
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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ElleBee
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby ElleBee » Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:47 pm

Hi Trisha!

For this latest exercise, I've been waiting for inspiration, or maybe it's insight. The opposite of it being something that "I" am trying to do, because when "I" do it, the actual purpose eludes me.

So inspiration and insight have not been happening, until yesterday. Yesterday there was some perspective change (a temporary one) that was light, happy, freeing. It was something like the realization that "I" am not responsible for anything, and "I" am not doing anything. That there is no responsibility at all on "me". This came out of the blue and was a very joyous experience. Is that what you call SEEING? I wasn't looking for the "I" at all, there was just that perception change for a while, and I was very grateful for it (and still am).

Does that count as SEEING? It certainly seemed to be so, and it sure was fun. It's possible that "I" can tap into that and go there again. It seemed like just letting the pressure off for a couple of days may have been the cause of it.

Thank you!

Lisa

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:41 pm

Hi Lisa,

this is the beginning of seeing :-)

This is great! You are seeing that ‘you’ are not the doer and that ‘you’ are not responsible for anything?

Now look right here and right now, is there anything ‘you’ are making happening or is all given? Is all already always happening?

Look around and see the colors and forms, can ‘you’ change or decide differently, can you decide to see red where is white, like a white wall?
Or are all shapes and colors given?

Then listen to the sounds that are there in this moment, can ‘you’ change any of them? Can you decide to hear something else, not the sounds that are there, that are given?

Touch your arm with your hand, notice the sensation, can ‘you’ decide or make to feel anything else? Or is what is felt given? On automatic?

Smell whatever is the smell in your kitchen in this moment, can the smelling be different than what is now here and given?

Now do the same experience for tasting, is there any entity found that can decide to taste not what it is tasting but something else?

Can you see how everything is given, the experiences, the feelings and thoughts? Is there anything that needs your doing or effort or manipulating?


Please look and explore and let me know what is true for you,

Sending you love

Trisha
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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ElleBee
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby ElleBee » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:15 pm

Hi Trisha!

"I" am doing some exploration. What has been working is looking at what I am NOT responsible for (everything). This works well because I pick something that appears to be a mistake that "I" made, or something that happens that "I" do not like.

Like today, I received a package that had a couple cotton bathroom rugs and a shower curtain. It turns out the shower curtain was the wrong size ("I" ordered the wrong size). Then the question: Is there an "I" that ordered the shower curtain wrong? No, there is not. It just happened. That is a very different thing then, it's not "my" responsibility. This was how it happened the other day with the realization -- looking at something that "I" did not want and realizing that there is no "me" involved. A dripping from the ceiling over the back porch necessitates that "I" make a call, "I" needs to step in and Take Action to Resolve the Problem. Then the realization pops that there is no "I" in control. "I" am not calling the shots. It all just happens without anything from "me" because there is no "me". It'll get taken care of, or whatever, something happens. And indeed it did, the call was made, a person showed up, the problem was addressed, but "I" wasn't directing anything. And if it is in fact permanently fixed or not, if it recurs, it's not "my" doing, there's no mistake that "I" made because "I" can't do anything, "I" is not in charge of anything.

It then appeared clear (today) that "I" was looking at this from the wrong side all along. Making it an "I" thing, "I" has to do this, "I" has this problem to solve. Instead of looking away from the "I" to where things are just happening. And that perspective is a permanent one, and the thing that appears possible is to welcome that perspective via curiosity and investigation as much as possible.

And that's it, that's the best that "I" can do because "I" can't do anything other than experience what comes. That is freeing. This is ongoing, and "I" welcome it.

Thanks!

Lisa

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:35 pm

Hi Lisa,

Instead of looking away from the "I" to where things are just happening. And that perspective is a permanent one, and the thing that appears possible is to welcome that perspective via curiosity and investigation as much as possible.
So great to read!!

So do you see now that the ‘I’ is not more than a thought, useful in communication but behind is nothing true or real?
And that we got educated or manipulated into taking it as true? Language is done in a such a way:

It is raining!
Really? What is this it, that is apparently responsible for raining? Does it exist? Is it necessary? Does it rain without any it?

What about the wind is blowing?
Is there wind without blowing?
Is there blowing without wind?

And what about I am breathing?
I am digesting?

Any self or entity there?

Seeing through the illusion of there being anything like a separate entity as a manager of your life is like seeing that there is no such man as Santa Claus bringing the Christmas gifts…..
You still can see people dressed up as one in the malls in December, but you see through this story …..

You say that this new perspective is a permanent one.
This is good to hear:-)


So, are there any questions left?

Are ‘you’ still seeking?

How does it feel to see through the illusion?

What is different from when we started our conversation?
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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ElleBee
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby ElleBee » Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:28 pm

Hi Trisha!

There's a bit of a feeling of laziness, like not wanting to look directly for a while. It's ok though, because direct attention brings forth the truth, it's always there, even if at times barely noticeable. No need to be concerned that it is going away. Another thing funny about it is that submerging into the belief system now has a temporary feel to it. An example is reading the news -- it takes on a whole different perspective of silliness.

As for your questions:
So, are there any questions left?
No. All questions can be answered by LOOKING. And LOOKING dissolves the questioner.
Are ‘you’ still seeking?
That little charade can be laid to rest.
How does it feel to see through the illusion?
Lightness. Not having to take things so seriously. Probably the best part comes from knowing that nothing is "wrong". Whatever happens is ok. Nothing changes the truth, ever.
What is different from when we started our conversation?
No more struggling, no more frustration. The awareness that "I" was looking at it from the wrong side, from the wrong perspective, and that having the wrong perspective cannot be changed by the "I" that has that perspective. That "I" can't do anything at all, which is very funny. No more than any thought can do anything. Then there is some recognition that many have this same frustration, so there is sympathy there. And admiration for the work you do! It's the only work that makes a real difference, isn't it? It's very wonderful to be here. THANK YOU for your help, guidance, perseverance.

Sending you lots of love! This is a great place to be!

Lisa

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:19 pm

Hi Lisa,

this sounds all very good, I am so happy to see you at this great place :-)

Laziness, yes all is taking the time it needs for sinking in……

And fun and silliness, yes can be expected, when looking more and more at the belief systems :-) more insights might happen......


Lisa, at this point we give 5 questions to our clients, I will share them with the other guides. In this way we make sure that I covered everything and nothing is left out or not clear. Sometimes other guides have questions. I would then pass them on to you.

You can answer in your own time.



Here we go:


1. Is there a separate entity, ‘self’, ‘me’ or ‘I’ at all, in any way or shape or form?
Was there ever?



2. Share in your own words what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience.
What is, through your inquiry different now?


3. How does it feel to see this?
What is different from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past days.


4. What is the last bit that pushed you over, that made you Look?


5. Please describe and give examples from experience:

- decision

- intention

- free will

- choice

- control

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for?



6. Anything to add?






Lisa, it was a pleasure to work with you.

Trisha
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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ElleBee
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby ElleBee » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:24 pm

Hi Trisha!

I wanted to give it a few days, since there is some unsteadiness going on, with a day or two where it feels like the new perspective is WAY in the background, and then a day pops up where it is right there, very obvious.
Here we go:


1. Is there a separate entity, ‘self’, ‘me’ or ‘I’ at all, in any way or shape or form?
Was there ever?
No. It's all an illusion, a big story of "I". There never has been.
2. Share in your own words what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience.
What is, through your inquiry different now?
The illusion of a separate self is a story that arises that there is this individual set apart from the rest of Life, and that it "does things", such as thinking, making decisions, taking actions, effecting changes. It shows up as thoughts claiming ownership for sensations and other thoughts. "I" was thinking... "I" feel X, "I" see Y, "I" hear Z, "I" taste A, "I" smell B.

What is different now is that this "I" is seen as an optional story. Some days it is more obvious than others (and today is one of those very clear days). "I" can see that this "I" is like a character in a novel or a movie, "I" can identify with the character (again like reading a novel or watching a movie), but it doesn't change the fact that "I" is fictional. There is an awareness behind all of this that sees, and it is not the "I" character.
3. How does it feel to see this?
What is different from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past days.
Right now things are looking like a low-budget sitcom, so there is a comical absurdity to it.
Along with that comes a freeing feeling. This "I" is completely fictional, so what is there to invest and assign heavy emotions to?

What is different? Previously there was one perspective, "Lisa's". Everything was judged based on the character's script. "Lisa" likes this, doesn't like that, is good at this, is bad at that, wants to do this, doesn't want to do that, etc. It was a big weight, lots of heaviness to carry all that judge-y stuff.

Now there is a lightness and feeling of freedom. There's breathing space where before there was a lot of pressure.
4. What is the last bit that pushed you over, that made you Look?
Wow, it was really hard to Look, "I" couldn't make myself Look. It was several days of mulling things over, wrestling with concepts. It could not be approached head-on, so it happened in a more sneaky way. "I" was mentally berating myself for a bad choice/poor decision, and the thought suddenly appeared that "I" is not responsible for choice, decisions, nothing that happened or happens. "I" does not exist. And in that moment, the implications (truth) became clear. It became clear what that really means, jaw-droppingly clear.
5. Please describe and give examples from experience:

- decision
(This section could get a bit "intellectual", as that's what seems to happen when typing definitions.)
Decision is where something happens in life and then thoughts appear. The thoughts fill in the blanks and the thoughts assign the credit to another thought, "I". "I" did this.
Example: When "I" decided to go to graduate school. There was a very specific moment when the thought popped in brand new, a real "Aha" moment, with emotions of recognition, excitement and surprise. Afterwards the "I" claimed it as a decision, but in truth that thought just popped in all on its own.
- intention
Intention is where thoughts appear, possibly with emotions, that something should happen or be different. More thoughts and emotions about possible actions occur. The thought "I" takes ownership of these thoughts or strongly associates with them.
Example: The thought appears that something is needed or is missing. "I" steps in and it becomes "I" need to go shopping.
- free will
Free will is thoughts about the ability to control situations and take actions that then become linked closely with the thought of "I", such that "I" becomes defined by the thoughts of free will ("I" = free will).
Example: "I" can eat healthy and exercise or "I" can eat junk food and sit on the couch.
- choice
Choice and free will are similar. Choice is the thought that comes with the belief (thoughts assumed to be true) in free will. Once the assumption of free will is granted, choice is also granted. Both are false though.
Example: "I" decide to eat healthy and to work out more consistently.
- control
Control is the belief (thought system) that the "I" both exists and starts, stops, or directs Life's happenings to a greater or lesser degree.
Example: "I" can make a vet appointment for my dog to keep current with his vaccinations and then "I" can drive him there and arrive on time according to the appointment. "I" is the one interacting with the scheduling department, "I" is looking at the calendar determining what day and time is best, "I" is controlling the dog, meeting with the vet, paying the bill, driving home with the dog.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
Nothing makes anything happen, things just take shape. There's no Master Engineer in charge. There's nobody doing anything. It's all a big stew of Life, constantly moving, changing, without anyone or anything doing anything.

The illusion is the aggregation of thoughts building great big belief systems (thoughts assumed to be true, layered or connected to other thoughts assumed to be true, and so on). The false "I" presides over these beliefs (thought taking artificial ownership), and emotions such as fear present obstacles to Seeing.
What are you responsible for?
A big, fat Nothing. There is no "I" to be responsible. That was the insight, that was the Seeing.

6. Anything to add?[/quote]
"I" hasn't achieved anything at all here, but "I" am very grateful to this community and to Trisha for the unwavering support and steadfastness of message/pointing. Truly amazing! Thank you!

Lisa

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:57 pm

Hi Lisa,

thank you, I passed your answers on to the other guides, it might take some days.

Yes, the in and out happens, we call it yo-yo-ing.......

But what you have seen, is seen, it is not possible to make it unseen......



Ilona has a video about the time after seeing happening, I find it helpful.


About Falling

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w


Trisha
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:50 am

Hi Lisa,

here is a question from another guide, about control.

You say:

Control is the belief (thought system) that the "I" both exists and starts, stops, or directs Life's happenings to a greater or lesser degree.


and their question is: does control in any form exist?

Is there any entity having control?


Thank you for making more clear how you see it now.

Trisha
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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ElleBee
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby ElleBee » Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:09 pm

Hi Trisha!

For control and all the other things that were listed for definition, none of them exist. However, control and the other terms appear to exist in that they are thought subjects/subject of thoughts. And the subject/content of thoughts are not real.

Control is a very funny one because that's what I was beating myself up about, that I am somehow responsible for bad decisions (in control so that "I" am able to make decisions!) when "I" am not. The freeing part is realizing that falseness, when there is realization that there is no control, then how could "I" do anything different when "I" wasn't doing any of it? And then those thoughts lose steam, the emotions defuse, and peace comes in.

Life just happens, there is no Controller, no possibility of control.

Lisa

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:37 pm

Thank you Lisa
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti

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TeeKa112
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Re: EllejBee ad nauseum

Postby TeeKa112 » Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:27 pm

Hi Lisa,

congratulations through the gate-less gate :-)


As you see, your thread name turned blue.

We are done here.

It was a pleasure to work with you.


From where you are now, seeing through the biggest of all illusions, of there being any separate self, more things can happen or deepen. We never know….

I will send you a link to zoom meetings with one of our guides for gated clients. If there is interest, send him your email and he will inform you about the dates and timings. (I need to get his information from him...)

Then there are more videos by Ilona, if interest shows up.

And I will send you my email in PM, just in case for any important occurrences…..


All the very best to you

Trisha
It is all so simple, but the very simplicity of it all is so staggering to you.

U.G. Krishnamurti


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