I'm ready to be "liberated"!

[eggroll1988]

A little about myself and some questions I had:

I am an athiest and have always been dismissive of “spiritual” experiences. But I experimented with LSD to confront my skepticism in college, and it transformed my life perspective. Firstly, it opened my mind to a range of human experiences I thought previously as new age mumbo jumbo. Secondly, my perception of time had radically changed throughout my experience. My moment to moment perception of time had gone from experiencing what I felt infinite in length and infinite in shortness. Thirdly, I felt as though I had a temporary “ego death”, although I hesitate to use this word since I do not feel fully enlightened. I had a very low self esteem with great anxiety, and I had a strong desire to become a more grounded individual. After the experience, I felt as though I died and was reborn. I did not sleep for two days but after my feeling of “craziness” disappered the night I slept, I felt completely liberated, and I found that all my habits of anxiety and negative self thought pattersn all disappeared. For the next three to four months, I felt almost invincible and fearless. I was not only immune to previous negative self but I was also non-reactive to the negativity to people around me. For the first time I felt alive. However after four months or so, this feeling slowly faded away and here I am two years later trying to figure out what happened to me, and whether or not I can reinduce this “enlightened” (not sure if this even the right word to describe it since it may be the opposite - maybe I created a positive state of delusion) state once again, except without drugs of course.

I am familiar with the works of Sam Harris, and I have been exposed to his writings on the subject/object dualist dichotomy that produces the illusion of the self. Conceptually, I think I can understand it, or at least know that this is probably possible. After I had my LSD trip, I was a completely different person and interestingly I also felt equipped with much more intelligence. Particularly I was able to express myself much more coherently and connect with people much more. I was far less judgmental of people and even after experiencing infinite bliss, was able to maintain a strong feeling of happiness than ever before.

What I’d like to know is what the experience is like of merging or collapsing the subjectivity and objectivity? Is this way of perception permanent? Does it affect your moment to moment perception (in terms of time and in terms of how you process the information around you)? Does it increase the quality of your life and perhaps your intelligence (related to how you process the information around you)? Is there a scientific or stable instruction manual of collapsing this dichotomy? And finally and most importantly, what is meant exactly by consciousness? Sam Harris and Deepak Chokra both have experienced this collapse of subjectivity and objectivity, but Sam is incredibly modest and says he does not know what the relation between consciousness and matter is while Deepak says consciousness is universal and the source of everything in the universe.

In the first post, http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/16850/ the p,erson seems to suggest that once the subject/object illusion has dissolved, one’s perception of the entire world is forever changed and therefore transcends matter (or at least the feeling of being trapped inside a flesh vehicle)? He also seems to suggest if I understand correctly that the perceptive framework is forever altered and therefore subjectively proves that there is no such thing as death? In other words, does breaking the illusion of self produce a permanent or temporary (like my LSD trip) altered state of consciousness, and secondly, what is the subjective experience of the altered state of conciousness like?

[toombaru]

A little about myself and some questions I had:

I am an athiest and have always been dismissive of “spiritual” experiences. But I experimented with LSD to confront my skepticism in college, and it transformed my life perspective. Firstly, it opened my mind to a range of human experiences I thought previously as new age mumbo jumbo. Secondly, my perception of time had radically changed throughout my experience. My moment to moment perception of time had gone from experiencing what I felt infinite in length and infinite in shortness. Thirdly, I felt as though I had a temporary “ego death”, although I hesitate to use this word since I do not feel fully enlightened. I had a very low self esteem with great anxiety, and I had a strong desire to become a more grounded individual. After the experience, I felt as though I died and was reborn. I did not sleep for two days but after my feeling of “craziness” disappered the night I slept, I felt completely liberated, and I found that all my habits of anxiety and negative self thought pattersn all disappeared. For the next three to four months, I felt almost invincible and fearless. I was not only immune to previous negative self but I was also non-reactive to the negativity to people around me. For the first time I felt alive. However after four months or so, this feeling slowly faded away and here I am two years later trying to figure out what happened to me, and whether or not I can reinduce this “enlightened” (not sure if this even the right word to describe it since it may be the opposite - maybe I created a positive state of delusion) state once again, except without drugs of course.

I am familiar with the works of Sam Harris, and I have been exposed to his writings on the subject/object dualist dichotomy that produces the illusion of the self. Conceptually, I think I can understand it, or at least know that this is probably possible. After I had my LSD trip, I was a completely different person and interestingly I also felt equipped with much more intelligence. Particularly I was able to express myself much more coherently and connect with people much more. I was far less judgmental of people and even after experiencing infinite bliss, was able to maintain a strong feeling of happiness than ever before.

What I’d like to know is what the experience is like of merging or collapsing the subjectivity and objectivity? Is this way of perception permanent? Does it affect your moment to moment perception (in terms of time and in terms of how you process the information around you)? Does it increase the quality of your life and perhaps your intelligence (related to how you process the information around you)? Is there a scientific or stable instruction manual of collapsing this dichotomy? And finally and most importantly, what is meant exactly by consciousness? Sam Harris and Deepak Chokra both have experienced this collapse of subjectivity and objectivity, but Sam is incredibly modest and says he does not know what the relation between consciousness and matter is while Deepak says consciousness is universal and the source of everything in the universe.

In the first post, http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/16850/ the p,erson seems to suggest that once the subject/object illusion has dissolved, one’s perception of the entire world is forever changed and therefore transcends matter (or at least the feeling of being trapped inside a flesh vehicle)? He also seems to suggest if I understand correctly that the perceptive framework is forever altered and therefore subjectively proves that there is no such thing as death? In other words, does breaking the illusion of self produce a permanent or temporary (like my LSD trip) altered state of consciousness, and secondly, what is the subjective experience of the altered state of conciousness like?

Hello,
I am the one with the headless bird picture on the Harris forum.
I came there thinking that those who had seen through the spell of religion might be open to the understanding of no self.
I was wrong. :-)
I am also new to this site.
They have changed my name to blue but I'm not sure that that allows me to address your questions.
I no longer believe in personal volition so here goes:
I have never experienced LSD but one of my hospice clients took it and it changed his entire life.
He had ALS and was one of the most loved and loveable people I have ever known.
I sat with him for two years and we became quite close.
One day I ask him why he was so calm.........I ask him why everyone loved him.
He became very quiet and stared out the window.
His disease had progressed to a point where it was very difficult for him to speak.
He managed to tell me that when he was twenty seven, he was alone on the beach in Maui.
Someone had given him a little piece of paper and told him it could change his life.
He put it on his tongue and waited.
By this time he was tired but managed to tell me that the "world turned inside out".
He spent the rest of his life walking through who he was.
In his last book the way Jed McKenna talks about LSD would lead one to believe that it was also part of his past.

When the sense of self loses its opacity, the brain experiences a world unobstructed by personal intent.
No longer is there a psychological center at the helm obsessed with preening its own feathers.
There is a sublime sense of emptiness and the search comes to an end.
Things are still used for convenience but it is known that they, and the self. do not have a separate existential reality.
Everyone experiences the understanding differently and expresses it through their unique perspective.
But there is a common thread that when strummed will resonate among them.

To address the question about death:
The physical organism will die in time.
The psychological entity will never die simply because it never lived.

Hopefully some other reds or blues will join in and we will be able to dangle your feet over the edge.


LOL




toombaru

[eggroll1988]

I am so confused....

What do you mean that the psychological entity never dies? Are you suggesting that consciousness is eternal? Do we all share the same consciousness?

Once I witness the illusion of the self, is it possible that my ego death will make me crazy or schizophrenic? Im a bit nervous but I am burning with desire and curiosity to see this illusion....

[eggroll1988]

Also what do you mean by "He spent the rest of his life walking through who he was.
In his last book the way Jed McKenna talks about LSD would lead one to believe that it was also part of his past."?
Can you explains more?

[toombaru]

I am so confused....

What do you mean that the psychological entity never dies? Are you suggesting that consciousness is eternal? Do we all share the same consciousness?

Once I witness the illusion of the self, is it possible that my ego death will make me crazy or schizophrenic? Im a bit nervous but I am burning with desire and curiosity to see this illusion....

In all matters concerning introspection, confusion is the natural state.
The psychological entity can't die any more than the people in your dreams at night.
They can't die because they have no existential reality.
They never lived.
Their only existence is in the brain's electro-chemical reactions.
The self evolved because it helps the the physical organism survive and reproduce but it spends a good portion of its time protecting itself.
It is the sense of self that tries so hard to see its own emptiness and that will never happen.
It chases an ever receding horizon.
You can prepare the ground, plant the seeds and water them but something else has to happen.
I know of several people whose understanding of no self came after a catharsis.
Some appear to have slipped into the centerless life gradually.
The people here seem to have developed a method that leads one to the edge of their own ultimate emptiness.
Have you read the case histories?

[eggroll1988]

Can you tell me about how you came to realize it?
I feel like I understand theoretically how the self is a construct of the mind, and I feel like I understand how to "observe" thoughts as objects rather than attach to them as a self, but I have yet to see or experience anything....

[toombaru]

Can you tell me about how you came to realize it?
I feel like I understand theoretically how the self is a construct of the mind, and I feel like I understand how to "observe" thoughts as objects rather than attach to them as a self, but I have yet to see or experience anything....

One night I mistakenly took the wrong medicine and woke up in an extremely anxious state of mind.
I wrote about the event in my introduction to this group but if you can't find it, I would be happy to elaborate.

Objects are thoughts.
And it isn't the sense of self that sees that.
The self is the geographical center of he conceptual overlay that the brain creates when it gives names to its perceptions.
The self evolved to "look outward" and when it tries to "look inward" it sees nothing it gets confused or frightened.
Ir sees nothing because there is nothing there.
Right about now is when the self recoils and starts searching for terra firma.
For me this was a very long process of undermining the illusion.
Perhaps another teacher will have some suggestions on how to sugar the brew.

Oh my gosh, it's one o-clock here.
Tonight try to think of something that doesn't have a name.

Good night.
:-)

[cosmiK]

Hi Eggroll,

I'll be Guide #2.

I just want to simplify everything for everyone, especially yourself. This process is simply about seeing in to the illusion of the self, "i, me, eggroll, cosmiK" as a separate entity.

You won't go crazy, you won't die, and there is nothing to be afraid of. You are just going to see in to an illusion that is taking up a large part of your consciousness and pretending to run your life. Seeing in to this, produces the realization, or Awakening from identifying with a "me".

I see you have many questions and concerns about LSD, consciousness, subject/object, but let us keep things very simple here. It is important that you understand this is not about discussing consciousness and experiences, this is about guiding you, to seeing, that, there ... is ... no ... 'you'. Alright?

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least every day.
2. We will post questions, and you will answer them.
3. When you answer you answer 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, you try to answer from your direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function.

Look forward to working with you, friend.

[eggroll1988]

id appreciate the pleasure of getting triple teamed by a trio of infinitely wise gurus

today i meditated briefly. everytime thoughts came up i realized that the subject pronoun was always there, so i responded by saying, "but there is no i, this is just a thought that your ego self has made up". as i kept responding to these thoughts as objectively as possible from a third person, i felt like something was happening. i felt peaceful and calm, and my brain also felt smooth and soft... almost like a gentle breeze was blowing inside my head... but i am not sure how much of this was just imagined or not, so again my "self" kept interupting. but at some point no thoughts arose and i was just in the moment it seemed. i opened my eyes and i could feel my pupils were very dilated, almost like it was when i did LSD. i was looking at the clouds and i felt an immense amount of concentration and focus and clarity. but this only lasted a few seconds because i was interrupted by someone walking by. they probably thought i was on drugs or something because i was totally spacing out in curiosity of my present experience.... i felt if i retained my concentration longer something wouldve happened but im not certain.... what exactly is supposed to happen from all this? i guess on one level im seeking to see the illusion, and maybe thats the problem but i cannot help but expect something profound to happen as everyone here is reporting....

[cosmiK]

Eggroll, I can feel your anticipation and excitement. Don't worry. You will see in to this, and trust me, you will love it. After you see in to it, there is a large community that you can discuss the ultimate nature of reality and consciousness and tooth fairies with...

BUT FIRST.....

PLEASE CONFIRM the ground rules.

[eggroll1988]

hi cosmic, i definitely agree to all those rules but it is possible to continue this starting next monday? i will actually be going to a family trip to a winery in france :/

i really want to follow up on this and am very excited, especially since today it seemed that i was on to something.... i desperately would like to experience this "selfless consciousness" that sam harris describes. can you tell me cosmic what this experience is like? does time change? why are there youtube testimonial videos of people crying from laughter? is that whats supposed to happen to me.....

[cosmiK]

Eggroll,

awesome. look forward to working with you. you are anxious, full of excitement, and Ready.

I cannot tell you what the experience of no-self is like because it varies from person to person. It is liberating and it is awesome, and I can already tell you will love it.... why? because it's the Truth.

I would advise letting go of anything you have read and heard, and just welcoming your own actual experience. It will be what is Perfect for you, trust me.

Yes, we can start next Monday, but I would like to give you some homework for you to take with you on your trip. You can contemplate these things deeply as you go through your vacation.

Shall I give you these 2 assignments?

Confirm. I am here and waiting.

[eggroll1988]

also... why is there an aftercare group?.... this is what concerns me because it suggests that its such a powerful experience that people need therapy afterwards.... is it true that its possible to get stuck in this selfless state, kind of like limbo, and requires someone to use the "magic stick"?

[eggroll1988]

hi cosmic, absolutely, i would love these assignments and will do my best to complete them wholeheartedly. i accept!

[cosmiK]

Eggroll,

you are jumping the gun. Take a breath and relax. Feel your anxiety, frustration, fear... FEEL IT. BE WITH IT. That's all. It cannot harm you.

Listen to me when I say. YOU WILL BE FINE.

Aftercare is simply because there will still be conditioning left. Awakening to no-self will not make you perfect and happy 24/7. It does not imply that you be injured in any way.

So... ready for the 2 assignments? You can try to do them now before you leave, and also contemplate them further when you leave for your trip.