Still seeking

[Orangeblosso]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That self is a created imagined concept
What are you looking for at LU? To check ego is not tricking me. I have seen the self is a construction since I was probably about 2 years old and started learning about identity. What was mine and what was not, what was good and bad, social conditioning etc. however, I know that ego or the Imagines self can be a slippery shapeshifter and I so,etc,we wonder if I have fully seen I am not that self. I have looked at what expectations I had around it and it is fair to say this has changed through reading Ilona’s book.
What do you expect from a guided conversation? Help in checking out my answers to questions to see if I am genuinely awakened now. I think it would be good to know if there was anything I am not seeing. I feel more at ease in life and yet I still find it difficult to remember others are not separate selves too. If this makes any sense.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? New to this, I have read Ilona’s book and watched some Rupert Spira
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[vinceschubert]

Hi vince here. i will travel with you for a bit as we knock over the leftover stuff.
Let's start with your expectations. What do you think your experiencing of being 'awake' will be?

vince

[Orangeblosso]

Hi Vince

Apologies for the delay in responding.

I have read enough to understand there is no specific feeling of being awake. More like everything has changed and nothing has changed.

Best wishes
Kate

[vinceschubert]

Hi Kate,

More like everything has changed and nothing has changed.

Yes, the one that I like is "nothing has changed but everything is different."
Have a go at explaining what this points to.
It's not an exam so there are no right or wrong answers. I'm just getting a handle on where you are at.

with love

vince

[Orangeblosso]

"nothing has changed, but everything is different."

I think this is what I had meant to write!

It is interesting you mention 'no right or wrong answers.' I often, or rather 'little self' often gets caught up in this. It feels like it is a heavy layer of belief.

My life is the same, yet I can be more at ease with control - knowing I am not controlling what happens has been a significant relief. Knowing that the little self is created by mind/memory/fear can be helpful when I come out of a spiral of stories. I feel I have less of those thought spirals and catch myself quicker. I feel as if when my mood states change that I notice the lower state of mind and try not to add a layer of narrative to explain it. Yet sometimes, this low mood state can go on for days, and thoughts of "there is something wrong with you " appear. Intellectually I know this is a thought, yet there is a desire not to experience this low state of mind.
Before I learned about this understanding, I would struggle far more so I can recognise it is better.

Thank you for your help, Vincent, I appreciate it.

love Kate

[vinceschubert]

Hi Kate, it sounds to me like you have already done most of the 'work' and it's really a matter of it being a new perspective that you haven't settled into yet.

little self is created by mind/memory/fear

Tell me more about this "little self".

I feel I have less of those thought spirals and catch myself quicker.

Language makes it difficult to express some of this stuff accurately. When you say "catch yourself", tell me about the "catch" part. Is this something that you do, or is it something that happens?

I notice the lower state of mind

Is there a 'you' that notices, or does noticing happen?

and try not to add a layer of narrative to explain it.

How does this 'trying' work?

a layer of narrative to explain it.

What are the consequences of that "layer of narrative"?

this low mood state can go on for days,

Do you eventually recognize that the low mood is the result of something?

there is a desire not to experience this low state of mind.

Ah, big trap. To quote somebody; "What we resist, we make stronger."
In the Buddhist literature, Desire (and Aversion) are the 4th fetter. It is indicative of a remaining identity with a self (I am)
I was lucky in that the portal that I fell through (when I 'woke up') was THIS IS IT.
Do you recognize that everything that you become aware of is already in the past? That it finished (maybe milliseconds ago) done, and nothing you can do can change it?
What might be the ramifications of recognizing this?

with love

vince

[Orangeblosso]

Hi Vince

Ah yes, language is useful and at times it can cause confusion!

Little self could also be labelled ego, separate self. The created self thoughts.

The ‘catching’ is more of a noticing that happens. No doing, as such.

The ‘trying’ has been more of a noticing how the ego or mind tries to assign meaning or a label to whatever is appearing and recognising that it is unnecessary and just another thought.
If it happens there is a noticing that the mood sinks lower.

The low mood could be tiredness and a sign rest is required. It could be hormonal. I recognise thought adds another layer which can be unhelpful as mentioned above.

Yes, the desire to not feel this way is resistance. If I ask how to ‘not resist’ that would be coming from the ego self! A voice came in saying “just be” as typing occurred.

There had not been a recognition of that everything that comes into awareness is already in the past, that is interesting to contemplate. Recognising this means every second is a fresh start or a new moment or different mood. That feels like freedom.

Love Kate

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Kate,

Yes, the desire to not feel this way is resistance. If I ask how to ‘not resist’ that would be coming from the ego self! A voice came in saying “just be” as typing occurred.

Ha, this reminded me of a haiku that happened some 12 years ago (just before I woke up). It goes;
i'm stuffed if i do.
i'm still stuffed if i don't do.
What's left ? Being free?

There had not been a recognition of that everything that comes into awareness is already in the past, that is interesting to contemplate. Recognising this means every second is a fresh start or a new moment or different mood. That feels like freedom.

Yes, to really grok this is freedom (liberation)
So Kate, if I said to you that only THIS is actual (real), what do you think that I am referring to?

with love

vince

[Orangeblosso]

Hi Vince

I like the haiku, it makes sense really.

To reply to your question:
“THIS is actual” - that is all there ever is - this moment, this experience.

Love Kate

[vinceschubert]

Hi Kate,

“THIS is actual” - that is all there ever is - this moment, this experience.

Perfect answer.
So, do you get it that everything other than current experiencing is conceptual?
That is from the perspective of Kate, everything else is mind stuff ABOUT...

Now, knowing this is great, but what is your experience when you find yourself responding to stories that say "that should have been different", or "I don't want to feel this way." etc? What is your response to that responding?

with love

vince

[Orangeblosso]

Now, knowing this is great, but what is your experience when you find yourself responding to stories that say "that should have been different", or "I don't want to feel this way." etc? What is your response to that responding?/quote]

If it is something involving another person I am usually good at using the Byron Katie inquiry method to loosen up the belief and see through it. However, if it a heavy physiological low state of mood I tend to resist feeling it by ignoring any thoughts and busyness. That does not work and I imagine that is the resistance to accept the experience in that moment?

Love Kate

[Orangeblosso]

I tried to use the quotation facility and I can see I need more practice!

[vinceschubert]

Hi Kate,

I tried to use the quotation facility and I can see I need more practice!

It's not a big deal, so don't worry too much about it.
This might help;
Firstly click on post reply,
Then When reading the other persons post, Highlight (by dragging the mouse over) a section of text you want a quote. Then go to the top of that panel click the “icon.
That will paste into your reply Window panel the text that you highlighted surrounded by the other persons name at the beginning and square bracket/quote at the end. you then click after this and type in your reply to that particular question.
Repeat for the next question…

If it is something involving another person I am usually good at using the Byron Katie inquiry method to loosen up the belief and see through it. However, if it a heavy physiological low state of mood I tend to resist feeling it by ignoring any thoughts and busyness. That does not work and I imagine that is the resistance to accept the experience in that moment?

Ah, great segue here. Here’s a story about conditioning (habit) and how to change it.
In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.
When we become aware that they are no longer useful, there are two ways that they can be decommissioned.
They can be pruned or they can atrophy from lack of use.
Neither of these seem to be able to be consciously controlled, but we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor. It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.
On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

Story here is that if we develop a trigger for the recognition that we have been sucked into (triggered) an unpleasant emotional experience (left brain activity) then whenever (sooner or later) that recognition happens we switch from left brain to right brain activity.
If it happens during that emotional meltdown, it will short circuit it. If it happens after it is finished it will still engage the right brain and enhance the likelihood that the trigger for recognition will happen sooner next time.
We are overcoming a habit, so it can take time, but personal experience here says it does work. Oh, and if we celebrate the recognition event with a laugh (which changes hormone balances) two things will happen. 1. we are rewarding the trigger & 2. we eliminate any judgments about the happening that was recognized.

There had not been a recognition of that everything that comes into awareness is already in the past, that is interesting to contemplate. Recognising this means every second is a fresh start or a new moment or different mood. That feels like freedom.

What do you think that it will take to recognize this?

with love

vince

[Orangeblosso]

Hi Vince

Thank you for the quote training :)

We are overcoming a habit, so it can take time, but personal experience here says it does work. Oh, and if we celebrate the recognition event with a laugh (which changes hormone balances) two things will happen. 1. we are rewarding the trigger & 2. we eliminate any judgments about the happening that was recognized.

I like this experiment, especially the laughter. Next time it occurs I intend to do this.

What do you think that it will take to recognize this?

A new habit rather than disrupt one this time to create a new neural path. Maybe this conversation will be enough for it to sink in though from experience I know it helps my memory to have visual prompts. It could be that I need to feel this one and that is usually from experiential learning.

Much love
Kate

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Kate,

I like this experiment, especially the laughter. Next time it occurs I intend to do this.

Excellent. It is very powerful, especially if done with mindfulness.

Maybe this conversation will be enough for it to sink in though from experience I know it helps my memory to have visual prompts. It could be that I need to feel this one and that is usually from experiential learning.

If you take any moment and consider what you are aware of, you will instantly recognize that your awareness if of a memory of what has already happened. You can't get more experiential than that.
The conversation is a trigger for the recognition, the arising of being aware, of remembering to 'do' it.
Once you have done it and seen it clearly, there is no need to repeat it. That knowing is filed away and exists forever.
With that liberation emerges every time you recognize that desire has happened.

What do you see as a shared between the following; decision, intention, free will, choice and control, responsibility, morality, truth, reality, opinion, and judgment.

with love

vince