Surely this is happening too fast

[bmt2]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
i'm not quite sure. the self seems to be a term for...something that is felt internally? i suppose that there is this thing that stands outside of other things and watches them, which seems possible and also against basic material physics

What are you looking for at LU?
well, i'm really in a bad state and have had a brain injury that sort of got rid of my ability to _feel_ almost emotion. so i feel my life is sort of 'fucked' - its all over. so i am looking for maybe peace or the lessening of suffering - if possible i'd like to try and get as much 'vividness' back as i can, as before the brain injury.

in a fantasy type world i wish i could be enlightened to get all sorts of crazy abilities - i'd like to actually be able to play music, or be 'better' at connecting w people and so on. i want good things and i guess glory. my life sucks so, if this will improve stuff in a real way, like, that' be great.

nb i say my life sucks but i'm stable, it's just suffering, i'm not really mentally unstable imo

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
i'm not sure - i've read the gateless gatecrashers pdf, most of it, and it --strirred-- things in me but i'm not sure what. somehow the no-self thing just won't click - but maybe it won't as i've probably 'meditated' less than 100 - 200 hours total, maybe 'not long enough' - but that also seems like 'just another belief.' and a lot of that has been under the influence of cannabis - which i'm told might be actually bad and stop me from reaching similar states sober.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? well, i used to go to church. i've often been interested in spiritual stuff intellectually, read around christian theology, some occult some, and as said above i've meditated _a bit_ but yah. not much.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Gladiola]

Hi,
I am Barb, and I can be your guide if you like. I have family experience with brain injury, and I am happy to work together with you.
One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers),

could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?
Barb


“Hurt feelings or discomfort of any kind cannot be caused by another person. No one outside you can hurt you. That’s not possible. Only when you believe a story about them can you be hurt. So you’re the one who’s hurting yourself. This is very good news, because it means that you don’t have to get someone else to stop hurting you or to change in any way. You’re the one who can stop hurting you. You’re the only one.”

― Byron Katie, A Mind at Home with Itself: How Asking Four Questions Can Free Your Mind, Open Your Heart, and Turn Your World Around


"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

Sam Harris, from his podcast on his book, "Waking Up" on
https://www.samharris.org/ near the middle of the page

[bmt2]

Hi Barb,

Firstly, thanks a lot for your response. Have read the Disclaimer/FAQ, and I think I will be able to/commit to being able to replying everyday - and i'll place other thoughts/readings on hold as much as possible for the moment.

I'll try to be 100% honest - without any waffle. but just as an advance warning, not a lot may 'happen' with me. I typo'd it before but I do have very little emotion, very little 'movement' or learning etc in my life. But I think some, etc. Things can work in odd ways, just wanted to mention upfront. I might be 'hard' and i'd want to apologise abt that.

OK Questions:

How will life change?

I am not sure. People often say 'nothing changes' - but then go on to talk about lots of positive changes happening! A bit confusing. I hope maybe I will be a bit more 'at peace' with things, if I realize there is no 'i' to be damaged or matter, and that everything is determined/not under 'my' control. Maybe there are various things I should be doing but feel unable to do so - these might change.' When I think of changes from this, I usually think of internal experience changes rather than specifically about my life.

How will you change?

Well, I think about this question and then get confused - how can 'I' change if the change is realising that there is no 'I'. I am hoping, on some level, I feel a surge of hope or anger really that this might allow me to be better, 'like i feel i was' or something. but I am not sure how I will change, I have some mixed feelings. I am feeling like the answer I am 'meant' to give is that I won't change, that I will dissolve, and that i'll be the same but with more insight. but I also feel like saying - ok, uh, but maybe that's what it is like for everyone, that the difference between being good or bad is just insight? Ultimately, like, I feel like I might be at peace a bit, and to some degree I am tired of suffering when nothing changes as a result of it.

What will be different?

I hope I'l be more 'engaged' w experience, and maybe, maybe, that my self is so pathologically large that removing it will free up a lot of system resources (uh, like, that i'll stop being 'repressed' or whatever) and feel more alive/loving etc. A few times I seem to have gotten a glimpse/'taste' of states that sound like no self (everyone/me seemed like 'not actually real' like the material world was, and it was just a bunch of weird stuff 'in ones head' that was simultaneously not real but also everyone let direct their behaviours etc.

What is missing?

I just feel like I should be someone else. I want to experience the world way more vividly than I do. I guess my situation is complicated a little bc, underneath or alongside this desire I want peace, less suffering etc. but i also feel (prob from brain damage) that 'what is missing' is also a restoration of 'normal human' functioning etc.

Hope this was all ok, I found it hard to answer ur questions directly may have sometimes veered into ponitificating.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

bmt or Pierre is cool, i'm in the GMT timezone


Pierre!

[Gladiola]

Hi Pierre,

Welcome to LU! This is a walk we will be taking together.
First let’s look at what LOOKING is:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that.

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Let’s look at Direct Experience:.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Relax and have fun with this.

Love, Barb

[bmt2]

Hi Barb,

Got it - i'll give this a go today and then write back later evening :)

[bmt2]

ok - getting somewhat scared.

there must be something v off in my experience of things vs the reality, i am a clumb of cells etc. how strange.

seeing: keyboard, lights, coloured lihgts. these are all parts of the experience. you have shape + colour attached or overlaid on the shape. they interact in certain ways etc?

hearing: music in headphones, buzzing tinnitus, its weird these things feel like they are happening in space, but its also yes, just kind of this 'thing' that occurs like a sensation etc.

sensation - pressure in left ear, hole/empty feeling above left eye in head area. stuff not there. foot being sqeezed beneath my body as i sit. discomfort in stomach etc. lots of things, uh, all just kind of werid nameless discrete sensations.

Thoughts Arising: im too damaged, uh, just sort of weird trains of thought linked on and on. i find myself caught up in them a lot, forgetting outside stuff etc. ok pay more atttenion hm. sometimes thoughts seem to happen, out of nowhere, idk if there is any deep control or not, but mostly they just appear. and then you are 'in' them and get tugged etc towards stuff.

Smelling smelling clothes, ok, this is what smell is. something called smell.


:)) ty,

Pierre!

[bmt2]

Hi Barb,

I'm sorry if the above response wasn't attentive enough, let me know if want more!

[Gladiola]

Hi,

Sorry for the delay.

Nice noticing the fear that came up. Here is an excellent video from Ilona on FEAR:
https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE

Please watch this and really participate with it a few times. It is more beautifully said than anything I can write.

So, step back from fear. See it won’t hurt you. Welcome it, speak softly to it, thank it for coming to show you something. Ask it what it is protecting.

Let’s do the activity again today, as many times as possible. Please write your responses in a list exactly as shown in the previous note. That way we will be sure to simply notice the sensation without thought knowledge. Like this:

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So, for example, when having breakfast, become aware of: -

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Thoughts Arising: just sort of weird trains of thought linked on and on. i find myself caught up in them a lot, forgetting outside stuff etc. ok pay more atttention. sometimes thoughts seem to happen, out of nowhere, idk if there is any deep control or not, but mostly they just appear. and then you are 'in' them and get tugged etc towards stuff.

This is true for everyone. Thoughts arise, we automatically claim them as OURS and IMPORTANT. Thoughts beget other thoughts, and off we go into the story. For now, it is enough simply to see that the thoughts occur all the time. Pick any thought and look at it as though you are in an airplane, flying toward it. As you get closer, you will see that it is very like flying through a cloud, you notice there is no real substance to it. Even though you feel the body’s habitual response to thought, through seeing it as a cloud formation you are passing through, you will see it as a temporary arising.

Thank you! I can see that you are giving this good attention!

Love,

Barb

[bmt2]

Hi Barb,

Thank you for your message.

OK:


Seeing a cup, simply, image + colour, seeing is when you have an image and the image has colour, the two things are usually separate but cross over in odd ways. both form a visual representation of something that seems to be in world..

ok ok experience:

smelling cola: that is a smell

feeling coldness of glass = sensation, cold

*thought comes to me - why do I feel like my experiences control things? how can a thought control something more than a sense can - and yet, thoughts do influence things, just as senses do?*

Tasting the cola: simply, taste.

Hearing fingers on keyboard: simply, sound

thought about this: thought

idk something is weirding me out here hm. its like, how do i _know_ such things are just what they appear to be? where
does the label i want to give it come from - it always seems natural to notice that keyboard taps come as a sense, 'sound' but how do i know this? what is the theory? agh.

trying to attend but i seem to keep getting stuck..possibly need more practice before attempt? we'll see i guess.

from earlier:

a bit of a jolt goes through my spine but
its mild idk imaginary -
what is a thought? if i have a thoght of john,
what does that mean. what if i argue
over what that thought is?

a thought is like a mini world thing? or no?
i dont really know what it is. i want to say
you can have visaul thoughts and verbal etc,
and vaguely others, but maybe that is simply visualising/verbalising
things, not 'thought.'

there is a white cup in front of me -
has white colour, and shape i call cup.
the cup label isnt really a thing but
its a label for a thing maybe - idk
if there is a 'non label' level we can access,
but one label doesnt nessecarily correspondw the other.

lots of interllectual stuff!

:)))

Pierre

[Gladiola]

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for your response. I live in Pacific Daylight Time, and may not be able to get back to you until later tomorrow my time. 7 hours difference!

Talk soon!

Love,

Barb

[bmt2]

No problem at all, actually ideal :)

Love,

Pierre

[Gladiola]

Hi Pierre,


I think we need to go over a few things.

This endeavor is not going to change the problems in your life and I have personally never seen or heard of anyone gaining special powers from it like becoming a musician.
This is about showing you how to LOOK to see for yourself whether you exist.
This LOOKING needs to be done step by step. The exercises build on each other to help you look.
Intellectualizing is NOT helpful. This is hindering us from moving forward. Remember when I said this is a walk we wil take together? This is a guided walk, I need to be able to show you step by step what we are looking at. I can’t do that when your mind is caught up in thinking and wondering, trying to figure out where we are going and what we will see.
We have been trying to look at what your senses, one by one, are actually showing you without thought jumping in and taking over.
For the next couple of days, I would like you to read Gateless Gatecrashers again, along with the disclaimer and What LU is not. What we are doing here takes focused attention, doing exactly what is asked and nothing more.
It will be very helpful to read the threads posted in the forums. You will see clearly that this investigation builds on itself to bring clarity.
Can you do this? I will be happy to wait a couple of days for you to get a better idea of what needs to be done here.

Love,

Barb

[bmt2]

Hi Barb,

Ok lets do that - i'll re-read gateless gatecrashers and the FAQ, and get back to you in a couple of days.

to explain: i think I find it very hard to 'just look' - possibly due to brain problems. I find it very difficult to be 'absorbed' in anything so even 'just looking' often seems v difficult - I 'try' to 'look' and nothing happens etc, the mind starts spinning and it's often hard to tell the difference between that and just looking.

[Gladiola]

Hi Pierre,

Quote:

The mind starts spinning and it’s often hard to tell the difference between that and just looking.

Yes, everyone does that. The pointers here will help you learn to look past the thoughts to Direct Experience.

If, at any point you feel it is too much or too difficult, feel free to take a break & come back to it. Keep using the video pointer on fear.

Only 2 things can prevent SEEING: fear and expectations.

You must learn to relax & have fun with it. This may help in a lot of ways.

Much love,

Barb

[bmt2]

Thanks Barb,

In some way I am feeling resistance, I think, and it doesn't 'feel' like it's all just fear - I do worry about moving too fast w. this stuff and getting into a situation that makes progress harder in the long run? I'll read GG tonight though, since that was always wonderful.