Cessation of becoming

[jmc]

Good morning Stacy.

I wasn’t sure if you wanted me to provide what I wrote down; I can do that if you want.

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

1. I don’t think one is truer than the other. Just two perspectives on experience, each valid. The first is seen through a lens that is manufactured by the mind, i.e. a person doing the experiencing. But still an experience of no self nonetheless.

2. The same as with labels. The mind’s activity doesn’t change what’s here.

3. Just direct experience without as much interpretation/evaluation/judgement by the mind. More along the lines of experience experiencing.

4. A letting go of sorts. Still felt the sensations of the body in the same way but with a sense of having less ‘ownership’ of them. With that was a certain freedom for allowing as just an experience.

Have a good day!

John

[Anastacia42]

Yes, sorry it didn't come out blue.

Remember, please Quote each question separately and put the answer under it. I'm reading these on my cell phone and it's difficult to scroll up-and-down.

Thanks,

[Anastacia42]

Okay...

1. The second list without "I" is truer because there's no "I." "I" is a lie, a made up story.

2. Without labels there is only experiencing.

3. Labels do not affect experiencing.

4. Good enough, but let's clarify that.


Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
[/b]
First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely. What is found?


If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

The Sun rises in the West is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I."

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"A letting go of sorts" or "peaceful" are an interpretation of a body Sensation, not a name for the Sensation itself, for example. Do you see that?


Loving,

[jmc]

Thanks Stacy. I"m going to wait until I have my computer to respond since I have a some comments/questions on what you conveyed as well as answering the questions. Quite a bit to write and I only have my iPad and phone where I am, and I find typing/cutting and pasting on them to be difficult. Hope to respond this evening but may be tomorrow morning. Hope that's ok.

John

[Anastacia42]

Okay. Please review Colored Socks & Direct Experience. Report only DE.

This reply contains many made up stories:

letting go of sorts. Still felt the sensations of the body in the same way but with a sense of having less ‘ownership’ of them. With that was a certain freedom for allowing as just an experience.

letting go =

body = (there's a whole pointer or 2 for the story of "body")

same =

ownership =

certain =

freedom=

allowing =

experience =

What is the Direct Experience of each of these?


Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Loving,

[jmc]

Good morning Stacy.

I still need to type up my lists from the Mind Labeling. I’ll send those but I wanted to post responses.

With regard to the questions about my exercise, please see a couple comments below.

1. The second list without "I" is truer because there's no "I." "I" is a lie, a made up story. 

I understand. I was answering the question from an ‘absolute’ perspective. Ultimately everything is true including the making up of a story. The content of the story isn’t true but having an experience of the story is. But I understand the distinction you are making and the importance of making it.

Just as a side note, personally I don’t like using the word “lie” here. A connotation of that word includes an ‘intent’ to deceive, which has a malicious quality to it. I see what is being referenced as a lie to describe the “I” as something that just happens and there’s no malicious intent (who would be owner of that intent anyway!). I prefer something like ‘falsehood’ or ‘untruth’ but given how central the word ‘lie’ seems to be in this work, I’ll go with it. ;-)

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

I’m very very intentional about not lying in my life, almost obsessive about it. Somewhere along the way I came to realize that was really important to me. It was hard to come up with a ‘bigger’ lie to someone I loved. So I decided to use an instance of a someone lying about something I did, which they conveyed to me and others. It was certainly ‘bigger’ given how I felt.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely. What is found? 

Tightness in chest
Some radiation of tingling to shoulders and back
Pressure in head

“A letting go of sorts" or "peaceful" are an interpretation of a body Sensation, not a name for the Sensation itself, for example. Do you see that? 

Yes I see. There was a body sensation I was experiencing but I added a story to it.

What is the Direct Experience of each of these? 

letting go = relaxation in chest, less pressure in head, movement of what seemed like energy flow in my body

body = (there's a whole pointer or 2 for the story of "body")

same =

ownership =

certain =

freedom=

allowing =

experience = 

I’m having difficulty remembering my DE at that point in time. The best I can do is to say what I did about letting go above. The rest is just a recollection of a story.

Thank you!

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

We have opposite perspectives on these couple of things:

was answering the question from an ‘absolute’ perspective. Ultimately everything is true including the making up of a story. The content of the story isn’t true but having an experience of the story is. But I understand the distinction you are making and the importance of making it.

What you're calling, "absolute" is relative, the way I see it. Daily stories & the illusion of a separate self are relative. Ultimately everything except your in- the-moment "-ing" experiencing is false, made up.

Hence the pointer to bring this to your attention. The "past" is gone. The "future" doesn't exist. Anything you say about them is a lie. I use that word intentionally to wake you up.

It is likely that if you can't find & see your own lies, you may fail at this exploration.

Tightness in chest
Some radiation of tingling to shoulders and back
Pressure in head

Yes. that's how it feels when we lie.

Truth is the opposite & it is what is experienced in the moment as you SEE no self.

This truth/ lie distinction is at the core of SEEING no self.

If you don't feel you can work within this framework, it might be best to find another guide. I'm pretty adamant about these terms & this framework.

You're doing great at finding in- this-moment body Sensations. Stick with this moment & you will SEE.

Much love,

[jmc]

Thanks Stacy.

It's at times like this that having a conversation would be useful. It's so hard to talk about these things to start with, and then to try to convey exactly/everything accurately in writing is really hard. There is a good chance something is not fully understood. I sense that's what happened here.

I'd like to follow up on some points with you. My intent is to get clarity from you and also to clarify a couple things I conveyed.

the way I see it. Daily stories & the illusion of a separate self are relative. Ultimately everything except your in- the-moment "-ing" experiencing is false, made up.

I agree with that statement. However in the moment something we can be experiencing is a made up story of self, right? In that case the story is false but the experience of it is real. Otherwise we're excluding something that we experience in the moment (ie. the false story). Again I'm not saying the story and the separate self it includes is real. Thoughts?

Anything you say about them is a lie. I use that word intentionally to wake you up.

It is likely that if you can't find & see your own lies, you may fail at this exploration.

Your reason for using the word 'lie' is good to understand. And as I said, I accept it. For me the key is that what you are calling lies need to be seen. In the end what we call them is actually not as important as seeing them.

If you don't feel you can work within this framework, it might be best to find another guide. I'm pretty adamant about these terms & this framework.

Ouch. Please tell me if you feel that what I conveyed indicates an inability to work within your framework. I don't see it that way but I want to make sure you agree. For me it felt like a natural, honest, sincere sharing of ideas.

Thanks,
John

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

First, that "ouch." There's nothing wrong with needing a guide with different methods & terminology than mine. We just want this to be simple for you. We don't need extra barriers to your focus on Direct Actual Experience.

Yes, it can be challenging to convey these things in language, but the ability to do so is valuable. And, it's not required. Other guides do video conferences.

In that case the story is false but the experience of it is real.

The story is always false, including any "made up story of self." Experiencing is always "real, " which is a slippery word. We say "Direct" or "Actual" to avoid trying to define some elusive thing called, "real."

There us no Actual Direct Experience of something that never existed.

What is missing here is the skill of distinguishing the fact of Thought Arising from its content, the lies it tells. You experience Thought Arising, but any story it tells, including of a "self" is made up.

The pointers given here give you practice with that skill.

For me the key is that what you are calling lies need to be seen. In the end what we call them is actually not as important as seeing them.

True.

I know you can work within the forum & terminology here. The question is only whether being guided on video would be easier. I suspect that if you stay here on the forum maybe you'll be less interested in definitions & more interested in practice. Video or phone might lead to sidetracks that won't help you to SEE.


Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)


Here's where we left off in the pointers, assuming you'd like to continue with me. If not, please let me know. I am not offended when a different approach is needed, not to mention there is truly no *I" to take offense


1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

During the noticing of direct experience, particularly today, there was a sense of freedom, of not being attached or grasping in the normal way. And the mind didn’t engage as quickly.

"Freedom" is a story. Please report only Direct Actual Experience. What Sensations arise? Where in the body? Usually, the solar plexus or heart.

Still, it sounds like you found the "lie feeling." Some would tell a story of "freedom."

Good. Keep paying attention to when any contraction, tightness or heaviness happens. Don't try to justify false stories. Just notice them.

Truth is felt when you notice there is expansive, relaxed light Sensation.

Please spend today noticing any time you feel the lie Sensation & write down the relevant thought story if you can. If not, just make note of what you were doing or some reminder of it. Post that list.

Also, make note of what was happening in the moment of any expansive, relaxed, light Sensation. Post that list.

All good?

Loving,
Stacy

[jmc]

Yes all is good. Thank you. I recognize that seeing the lies is essential and you will be help me with that.

I will report back on the exercise.

🙏

John

[Anastacia42]

Sounds good!

Stacy

[jmc]

Hi Stacy,

First, I finally typed up the results of the Mind Labeling Experience:

First 10 Minutes:
- I am sitting at the dining table
- I am looking out the window at the trees
- I am watching the dog
- I am hearing the dog whimper
- I am petting the dog
- I am feeling hungry
- I am tasting coffee
- I am reading pamphlet
- I am feeling the hardness of the bench I’m sitting on
- I am thinking about this exercise
- I am feeling some muscle soreness
- I am breathing
- I am holding a blue pen
- I am thinking about feeding the dogs
- I am holding my glasses

Second 10 minutes:
- Sitting on bench
- Hearing refrigerator
- Writing
- Hearing furnace come on
- Hearing fridge shut off
- Watching squirrel run up tree
- Rubbing face
- Breathing
- Looking outside through window
- Feeling sensation of bench
- Seeing dog in its bed
- Thinking about this exercise
- Hearing house creak
- Sensing feeling hot

You posted the 4 questions for that exercise in blue again but I wasn’t sure if you were expecting me to answer them since you had provided me with responses to them.

"Freedom" is a story. Please report only Direct Actual Experience. What Sensations arise? Where in the body? Usually, the solar plexus or heart.

I’m not sure if you saw it but a coupe posts ago I responded to your feedback about this being a story. Here was my response:

Yes I see. There was a body sensation I was experiencing but I added a story to it.

letting go = relaxation in chest, less pressure in head, movement of what seemed like energy flow in my body

I’m having difficulty remembering any more about my DE at that point in time. The best I can do is say what I did about letting go above. The rest is just a recollection of a story.

Please spend today noticing any time you feel the lie Sensation & write down the relevant thought story if you can. If not, just make note of what you were doing or some reminder of it. Post that list.

1. Worry about future in terms of how the current stock market and the impact of needing to withdraw a large amount of money from savings in the next week for a particular purpose.
2. Concern about ticks around the cabin we have after reading article.
3. Impatience with myself as I stopped at Home Depot on way home from grocery store with frozen food in car.

Also, make note of what was happening in the moment of any expansive, relaxed, light Sensation. Post that list.

1. Driving to doctor appointment. Nothing in particular happening but a seemingly uncaused feeling of no struggle.

Thanks,
John

[Anastacia42]

Hi John,

Yes, our conversation here hasn't been quite linear. You're answering all the right questions.

You've got Mind Labeling Roby & have noticed it feels more relaxed without "I."

Yes, I saw what you wrote about "freedom," but had forgotten in that moment. Sorry. I read everything you send, usually more than once.

Yes, DE is best recorded at the time of noticing.

1. Worry about future in terms of how the current stock market and the impact of needing to withdraw a large amount of money from savings in the next week for a particular purpose.

2. Concern about ticks around the cabin we have after reading article.

3. Impatience with myself as I stopped at Home Depot on way home from grocery store with frozen food in car.

These are great. In my terms they're all "lies."

Can you tell me why?

Driving to doctor appointment. Nothing in particular happening but a seemingly uncaused feeling of no struggle.

Yes! "What is" or "truth." Very good to notice it was "uncaused." Do you see how that is?"

Loving,

[jmc]

Hi Stacy.

Can you tell me why?

They each represent a story based only on thought experience - i.e. no other direct experience other than thought. And all of them contain resistance to something believed to exist beyond a thought experience. But maybe most importantly, they presume the story is happening to a 'me'.

Do you see how that is?"

I think so. Nothing is necessary to be in Truth.

This was a good exercise and good questions. Really caused me to see experiences for what they are and to see how the body informs us.

Thank you.
John

[Anastacia42]

Excellent, John,

They each represent a story based only on thought experience - i.e. no other direct experience other than thought. And all of them contain resistance to something believed to exist beyond a thought experience. But maybe most importantly, they presume the story is happening to a 'me'.

Exactly.

Nothing is necessary to be in Truth.

Also, true.

How does it FEEL to notice only Direct Experience?


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,