Stuck in seeking

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus

Thanks again for your responses and your patience.

Great, let’s get cooking.
There’s no rush here, nature has it’s own rhythm.

Thank you for this - it's a timely reminder that there is no point trying to expedite or jump to the end of this, merely another illusion of control.

Yes I feel the stickiness, inviting relaxation into the process, investigate who is ‘trying’? Just rest awareness here. Let it all play out with patience.

You of course know the answer I will have found, but on looking it is clear that the one who is trying is not there. What is happening could perhaps be better described as habits and conditioning arising. The trying is happening because it's the usual response.

It’s important to acknowledge where new ‘spiritual 2.0’ belief systems are being installed. 

It can sound like this process is about bringing a new belief-system of ‘no-self’.

Such a subtle trap, but definitely something I've fallen into at points during this time looking into non-duality. This line of questioning leads me to ask what a belief actually is - and of course, it is something that we do not know but choose to respond to as if we do. So if the illusion of the self is known, what point is there having a belief in it?

But the only interest really is seeing there is no-self… or not?

For only you can check for ‘yourself’ - It’s simply a matter of seeing it and then carrying on as you were.

Nope, no self here. But plenty of things that can be mistaken for one or contribute to the belief in one - personality, habits, conditioning.

How would it feel to not have beliefs?

Even the belief in no-self?

This is fascinating question.
On the one hand - I would have to say not having beliefs would be.. lightening? Liberating, I suppose? Going back to that definition of belief as something that isn't known but is held onto as if it was, that activity of clinging to a belief and maintaining it must consume a lot of effort when you imagine the number of beliefs that are being held. Letting go of all of those, letting what is known be known and what is unknown be unknown, and any stories about what the unknown might be just be stories... I can almost feel a loosening up as I ponder this concept.

And yet with it there is also a slight edge of fearfulness arising. A thought of "what am I without my beliefs", that "beliefs are important for guiding my actions" and that "I'll look stupid if I just say "I don't know" all the time". Though once they arise, these questions are quickly dismissed as they obviously come from that conceptual "I" viewpoint.

Just to clarify, my questions are not directing you to create an intention as such but more about directing your looking and feeling sense to embrace that sense of no controller and nothing to control. It’s fine to understand it intellectually and another thing to live it experientially. Life being life living through human form, free to be itself.

I do feel like there has been some progress towards allowing life to flow this way. Less time and effort seems to go towards controlling the outcome of events, more things seem to be happening naturally. The mental voice seems to shift more towards questioning, sometimes during but more often after the event, "am I really controlling this / did I decide to do that or did I just do it".
t

And perhaps worth asking that even if the reflective awareness comes ‘after the fact’ does it mean that it didn’t happen or is less valuable.

Another judgement from the oh-so-enlightened super-ego-boy in my head, I suppose. An image of what "the enlightened one" is like and then casting myself negatively against it. In this case, a belief that the enlightened person doesn't need to retrospectively analyse or reflect because their awareness is already there.

I hear you on that one. Life seems to ever evolve and transform.

And look at me trying to be in charge of it. The arrogance, and the effort!

It sounds like shifts happening.

Shift happens... only one letter away from a favourite expression of mine, which also seems to sum up the matter quite neatly. haha

It feels very positive to hear you speaking into the the theatre of falling and the fear and desire that comes up around it.

I sense it would be really beneficial to create a focus here.

A contemplation that has the quality of timeless patience?

As you stand at this cliff at the edge of the unknown, can love and wisdom truly meet your fear, self-judgement, frustration and whatever else is there? Love meeting it as it would a child that is lost and scared trying to find its mummy, rather than a ‘separate self’ that you project negative emotional energy towards.

This is a very astute question. Instinctively I feel the answer to "can it" is "yes". But the answer to "does it", is "no". The self-judgement too often is listened to, the comparison of the fictional person against a fictional template of another fictional person, which brings the temptation to push away what is judged as negative or incorrect.

I think this is something that needs to be attended to over time and with patience, but hopefully an increased awareness or focus towards that tendency will start to change the behaviour. What is the point of judging the self negatively, it's not even there - it's just a body, a mind, habits, conditions, none of which were created by me. So when these things arise it should be more a case of looking to them with openness, curiosity even, rather than judgement.

Beautiful, this feels great. There’s nothing to obtain here. Every time I come to answer this thread, it’s always a mystery and an embrace with the unknown. Life seemingly forever renewed. I know nothing but words appear.

You have a wonderful way with words. Sums up my approach to this thread as well.

Sticking and circling is perfect, we can rest into this with patience and compassion now. No need to run from it. Acknowledging the presence and fullness you give to each question even when it feels sticky.

I will try to remember this and endeavour welcome the sticking and circling as much as I welcome signs of progress!

Love

Paddy

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus

Thanks again for your responses and your patience.

Great, let’s get cooking.
There’s no rush here, nature has it’s own rhythm.

Thank you for this - it's a timely reminder that there is no point trying to expedite or jump to the end of this, merely another illusion of control.

Yes I feel the stickiness, inviting relaxation into the process, investigate who is ‘trying’? Just rest awareness here. Let it all play out with patience.

You of course know the answer I will have found, but on looking it is clear that the one who is trying is not there. What is happening could perhaps be better described as habits and conditioning arising. The trying is happening because it's the usual response.

It’s important to acknowledge where new ‘spiritual 2.0’ belief systems are being installed. 

It can sound like this process is about bringing a new belief-system of ‘no-self’.

Such a subtle trap, but definitely something I've fallen into at points during this time looking into non-duality. This line of questioning leads me to ask what a belief actually is - and of course, it is something that we do not know but choose to respond to as if we do. So if the illusion of the self is known, what point is there having a belief in it?

But the only interest really is seeing there is no-self… or not?

For only you can check for ‘yourself’ - It’s simply a matter of seeing it and then carrying on as you were.

Nope, no self here. But plenty of things that can be mistaken for one or contribute to the belief in one - personality, habits, conditioning.

How would it feel to not have beliefs?

Even the belief in no-self?

This is fascinating question.
On the one hand - I would have to say not having beliefs would be.. lightening? Liberating, I suppose? Going back to that definition of belief as something that isn't known but is held onto as if it was, that activity of clinging to a belief and maintaining it must consume a lot of effort when you imagine the number of beliefs that are being held. Letting go of all of those, letting what is known be known and what is unknown be unknown, and any stories about what the unknown might be just be stories... I can almost feel a loosening up as I ponder this concept.

And yet with it there is also a slight edge of fearfulness arising. A thought of "what am I without my beliefs", that "beliefs are important for guiding my actions" and that "I'll look stupid if I just say "I don't know" all the time". Though once they arise, these questions are quickly dismissed as they obviously come from that conceptual "I" viewpoint.

Just to clarify, my questions are not directing you to create an intention as such but more about directing your looking and feeling sense to embrace that sense of no controller and nothing to control. It’s fine to understand it intellectually and another thing to live it experientially. Life being life living through human form, free to be itself.

I do feel like there has been some progress towards allowing life to flow this way. Less time and effort seems to go towards controlling the outcome of events, more things seem to be happening naturally. The mental voice seems to shift more towards questioning, sometimes during but more often after the event, "am I really controlling this / did I decide to do that or did I just do it".
t

And perhaps worth asking that even if the reflective awareness comes ‘after the fact’ does it mean that it didn’t happen or is less valuable.

Another judgement from the oh-so-enlightened super-ego-boy in my head, I suppose. An image of what "the enlightened one" is like and then casting myself negatively against it. In this case, a belief that the enlightened person doesn't need to retrospectively analyse or reflect because their awareness is already there.

I hear you on that one. Life seems to ever evolve and transform.

And look at me trying to be in charge of it. The arrogance, and the effort!

It sounds like shifts happening.

Shift happens... only one letter away from a favourite expression of mine, which also seems to sum up the matter quite neatly. haha

It feels very positive to hear you speaking into the the theatre of falling and the fear and desire that comes up around it.

I sense it would be really beneficial to create a focus here.

A contemplation that has the quality of timeless patience?

As you stand at this cliff at the edge of the unknown, can love and wisdom truly meet your fear, self-judgement, frustration and whatever else is there? Love meeting it as it would a child that is lost and scared trying to find its mummy, rather than a ‘separate self’ that you project negative emotional energy towards.

This is a very astute question. Instinctively I feel the answer to "can it" is "yes". But the answer to "does it", is "no". The self-judgement too often is listened to, the comparison of the fictional person against a fictional template of another fictional person, which brings the temptation to push away what is judged as negative or incorrect.

I think this is something that needs to be attended to over time and with patience, but hopefully an increased awareness or focus towards that tendency will start to change the behaviour. What is the point of judging the self negatively, it's not even there - it's just a body, a mind, habits, conditions, none of which were created by me. So when these things arise it should be more a case of looking to them with openness, curiosity even, rather than judgement.

Beautiful, this feels great. There’s nothing to obtain here. Every time I come to answer this thread, it’s always a mystery and an embrace with the unknown. Life seemingly forever renewed. I know nothing but words appear.

You have a wonderful way with words. Sums up my approach to this thread as well.

Sticking and circling is perfect, we can rest into this with patience and compassion now. No need to run from it. Acknowledging the presence and fullness you give to each question even when it feels sticky.

I will try to remember this and endeavour welcome the sticking and circling as much as I welcome signs of progress!

Love

Paddy

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus

Thanks again for your responses and your patience.

Great, let’s get cooking.
There’s no rush here, nature has it’s own rhythm.

Thank you for this - it's a timely reminder that there is no point trying to expedite or jump to the end of this, merely another illusion of control.

Yes I feel the stickiness, inviting relaxation into the process, investigate who is ‘trying’? Just rest awareness here. Let it all play out with patience.

You of course know the answer I will have found, but on looking it is clear that the one who is trying is not there. What is happening could perhaps be better described as habits and conditioning arising. The trying is happening because it's the usual response.

It’s important to acknowledge where new ‘spiritual 2.0’ belief systems are being installed. 

It can sound like this process is about bringing a new belief-system of ‘no-self’.

Such a subtle trap, but definitely something I've fallen into at points during this time looking into non-duality. This line of questioning leads me to ask what a belief actually is - and of course, it is something that we do not know but choose to respond to as if we do. So if the illusion of the self is known, what point is there having a belief in it?

But the only interest really is seeing there is no-self… or not?

For only you can check for ‘yourself’ - It’s simply a matter of seeing it and then carrying on as you were.

Nope, no self here. But plenty of things that can be mistaken for one or contribute to the belief in one - personality, habits, conditioning.

How would it feel to not have beliefs?

Even the belief in no-self?

This is fascinating question.
On the one hand - I would have to say not having beliefs would be.. lightening? Liberating, I suppose? Going back to that definition of belief as something that isn't known but is held onto as if it was, that activity of clinging to a belief and maintaining it must consume a lot of effort when you imagine the number of beliefs that are being held. Letting go of all of those, letting what is known be known and what is unknown be unknown, and any stories about what the unknown might be just be stories... I can almost feel a loosening up as I ponder this concept.

And yet with it there is also a slight edge of fearfulness arising. A thought of "what am I without my beliefs", that "beliefs are important for guiding my actions" and that "I'll look stupid if I just say "I don't know" all the time". Though once they arise, these questions are quickly dismissed as they obviously come from that conceptual "I" viewpoint.

Just to clarify, my questions are not directing you to create an intention as such but more about directing your looking and feeling sense to embrace that sense of no controller and nothing to control. It’s fine to understand it intellectually and another thing to live it experientially. Life being life living through human form, free to be itself.

I do feel like there has been some progress towards allowing life to flow this way. Less time and effort seems to go towards controlling the outcome of events, more things seem to be happening naturally. The mental voice seems to shift more towards questioning, sometimes during but more often after the event, "am I really controlling this / did I decide to do that or did I just do it".
t

And perhaps worth asking that even if the reflective awareness comes ‘after the fact’ does it mean that it didn’t happen or is less valuable.

Another judgement from the oh-so-enlightened super-ego-boy in my head, I suppose. An image of what "the enlightened one" is like and then casting myself negatively against it. In this case, a belief that the enlightened person doesn't need to retrospectively analyse or reflect because their awareness is already there.

I hear you on that one. Life seems to ever evolve and transform.

And look at me trying to be in charge of it. The arrogance, and the effort!

It sounds like shifts happening.

Shift happens... only one letter away from a favourite expression of mine, which also seems to sum up the matter quite neatly. haha

It feels very positive to hear you speaking into the the theatre of falling and the fear and desire that comes up around it.

I sense it would be really beneficial to create a focus here.

A contemplation that has the quality of timeless patience?

As you stand at this cliff at the edge of the unknown, can love and wisdom truly meet your fear, self-judgement, frustration and whatever else is there? Love meeting it as it would a child that is lost and scared trying to find its mummy, rather than a ‘separate self’ that you project negative emotional energy towards.

This is a very astute question. Instinctively I feel the answer to "can it" is "yes". But the answer to "does it", is "no". The self-judgement too often is listened to, the comparison of the fictional person against a fictional template of another fictional person, which brings the temptation to push away what is judged as negative or incorrect.

I think this is something that needs to be attended to over time and with patience, but hopefully an increased awareness or focus towards that tendency will start to change the behaviour. What is the point of judging the self negatively, it's not even there - it's just a body, a mind, habits, conditions, none of which were created by me. So when these things arise it should be more a case of looking to them with openness, curiosity even, rather than judgement.

Beautiful, this feels great. There’s nothing to obtain here. Every time I come to answer this thread, it’s always a mystery and an embrace with the unknown. Life seemingly forever renewed. I know nothing but words appear.

You have a wonderful way with words. Sums up my approach to this thread as well.

Sticking and circling is perfect, we can rest into this with patience and compassion now. No need to run from it. Acknowledging the presence and fullness you give to each question even when it feels sticky.

I will try to remember this and endeavour welcome the sticking and circling as much as I welcome signs of progress!

Love

Paddy

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus

Thanks again for your responses and your patience.

Great, let’s get cooking.
There’s no rush here, nature has it’s own rhythm.

Thank you for this - it's a timely reminder that there is no point trying to expedite or jump to the end of this, merely another illusion of control.

Yes I feel the stickiness, inviting relaxation into the process, investigate who is ‘trying’? Just rest awareness here. Let it all play out with patience.

You of course know the answer I will have found, but on looking it is clear that the one who is trying is not there. What is happening could perhaps be better described as habits and conditioning arising. The trying is happening because it's the usual response.

It’s important to acknowledge where new ‘spiritual 2.0’ belief systems are being installed. 

It can sound like this process is about bringing a new belief-system of ‘no-self’.

Such a subtle trap, but definitely something I've fallen into at points during this time looking into non-duality. This line of questioning leads me to ask what a belief actually is - and of course, it is something that we do not know but choose to respond to as if we do. So if the illusion of the self is known, what point is there having a belief in it?

But the only interest really is seeing there is no-self… or not?

For only you can check for ‘yourself’ - It’s simply a matter of seeing it and then carrying on as you were.

Nope, no self here. But plenty of things that can be mistaken for one or contribute to the belief in one - personality, habits, conditioning.

How would it feel to not have beliefs?

Even the belief in no-self?

This is fascinating question.
On the one hand - I would have to say not having beliefs would be.. lightening? Liberating, I suppose? Going back to that definition of belief as something that isn't known but is held onto as if it was, that activity of clinging to a belief and maintaining it must consume a lot of effort when you imagine the number of beliefs that are being held. Letting go of all of those, letting what is known be known and what is unknown be unknown, and any stories about what the unknown might be just be stories... I can almost feel a loosening up as I ponder this concept.

And yet with it there is also a slight edge of fearfulness arising. A thought of "what am I without my beliefs", that "beliefs are important for guiding my actions" and that "I'll look stupid if I just say "I don't know" all the time". Though once they arise, these questions are quickly dismissed as they obviously come from that conceptual "I" viewpoint.

Just to clarify, my questions are not directing you to create an intention as such but more about directing your looking and feeling sense to embrace that sense of no controller and nothing to control. It’s fine to understand it intellectually and another thing to live it experientially. Life being life living through human form, free to be itself.

I do feel like there has been some progress towards allowing life to flow this way. Less time and effort seems to go towards controlling the outcome of events, more things seem to be happening naturally. The mental voice seems to shift more towards questioning, sometimes during but more often after the event, "am I really controlling this / did I decide to do that or did I just do it".
t

And perhaps worth asking that even if the reflective awareness comes ‘after the fact’ does it mean that it didn’t happen or is less valuable.

Another judgement from the oh-so-enlightened super-ego-boy in my head, I suppose. An image of what "the enlightened one" is like and then casting myself negatively against it. In this case, a belief that the enlightened person doesn't need to retrospectively analyse or reflect because their awareness is already there.

I hear you on that one. Life seems to ever evolve and transform.

And look at me trying to be in charge of it. The arrogance, and the effort!

It sounds like shifts happening.

Shift happens... only one letter away from a favourite expression of mine, which also seems to sum up the matter quite neatly. haha

It feels very positive to hear you speaking into the the theatre of falling and the fear and desire that comes up around it.

I sense it would be really beneficial to create a focus here.

A contemplation that has the quality of timeless patience?

As you stand at this cliff at the edge of the unknown, can love and wisdom truly meet your fear, self-judgement, frustration and whatever else is there? Love meeting it as it would a child that is lost and scared trying to find its mummy, rather than a ‘separate self’ that you project negative emotional energy towards.

This is a very astute question. Instinctively I feel the answer to "can it" is "yes". But the answer to "does it", is "no". The self-judgement too often is listened to, the comparison of the fictional person against a fictional template of another fictional person, which brings the temptation to push away what is judged as negative or incorrect.

I think this is something that needs to be attended to over time and with patience, but hopefully an increased awareness or focus towards that tendency will start to change the behaviour. What is the point of judging the self negatively, it's not even there - it's just a body, a mind, habits, conditions, none of which were created by me. So when these things arise it should be more a case of looking to them with openness, curiosity even, rather than judgement.

Beautiful, this feels great. There’s nothing to obtain here. Every time I come to answer this thread, it’s always a mystery and an embrace with the unknown. Life seemingly forever renewed. I know nothing but words appear.

You have a wonderful way with words. Sums up my approach to this thread as well.

Sticking and circling is perfect, we can rest into this with patience and compassion now. No need to run from it. Acknowledging the presence and fullness you give to each question even when it feels sticky.

I will try to remember this and endeavour welcome the sticking and circling as much as I welcome signs of progress!

Love

Paddy

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus

Thanks again for your responses and your patience.

Great, let’s get cooking.
There’s no rush here, nature has it’s own rhythm.

Thank you for this - it's a timely reminder that there is no point trying to expedite or jump to the end of this, merely another illusion of control.

Yes I feel the stickiness, inviting relaxation into the process, investigate who is ‘trying’? Just rest awareness here. Let it all play out with patience.

You of course know the answer I will have found, but on looking it is clear that the one who is trying is not there. What is happening could perhaps be better described as habits and conditioning arising. The trying is happening because it's the usual response.

It’s important to acknowledge where new ‘spiritual 2.0’ belief systems are being installed. 

It can sound like this process is about bringing a new belief-system of ‘no-self’.

Such a subtle trap, but definitely something I've fallen into at points during this time looking into non-duality. This line of questioning leads me to ask what a belief actually is - and of course, it is something that we do not know but choose to respond to as if we do. So if the illusion of the self is known, what point is there having a belief in it?

But the only interest really is seeing there is no-self… or not?

For only you can check for ‘yourself’ - It’s simply a matter of seeing it and then carrying on as you were.

Nope, no self here. But plenty of things that can be mistaken for one or contribute to the belief in one - personality, habits, conditioning.

How would it feel to not have beliefs?

Even the belief in no-self?

This is fascinating question.
On the one hand - I would have to say not having beliefs would be.. lightening? Liberating, I suppose? Going back to that definition of belief as something that isn't known but is held onto as if it was, that activity of clinging to a belief and maintaining it must consume a lot of effort when you imagine the number of beliefs that are being held. Letting go of all of those, letting what is known be known and what is unknown be unknown, and any stories about what the unknown might be just be stories... I can almost feel a loosening up as I ponder this concept.

And yet with it there is also a slight edge of fearfulness arising. A thought of "what am I without my beliefs", that "beliefs are important for guiding my actions" and that "I'll look stupid if I just say "I don't know" all the time". Though once they arise, these questions are quickly dismissed as they obviously come from that conceptual "I" viewpoint.

Just to clarify, my questions are not directing you to create an intention as such but more about directing your looking and feeling sense to embrace that sense of no controller and nothing to control. It’s fine to understand it intellectually and another thing to live it experientially. Life being life living through human form, free to be itself.

I do feel like there has been some progress towards allowing life to flow this way. Less time and effort seems to go towards controlling the outcome of events, more things seem to be happening naturally. The mental voice seems to shift more towards questioning, sometimes during but more often after the event, "am I really controlling this / did I decide to do that or did I just do it".
t

And perhaps worth asking that even if the reflective awareness comes ‘after the fact’ does it mean that it didn’t happen or is less valuable.

Another judgement from the oh-so-enlightened super-ego-boy in my head, I suppose. An image of what "the enlightened one" is like and then casting myself negatively against it. In this case, a belief that the enlightened person doesn't need to retrospectively analyse or reflect because their awareness is already there.

I hear you on that one. Life seems to ever evolve and transform.

And look at me trying to be in charge of it. The arrogance, and the effort!

It sounds like shifts happening.

Shift happens... only one letter away from a favourite expression of mine, which also seems to sum up the matter quite neatly. haha

It feels very positive to hear you speaking into the the theatre of falling and the fear and desire that comes up around it.

I sense it would be really beneficial to create a focus here.

A contemplation that has the quality of timeless patience?

As you stand at this cliff at the edge of the unknown, can love and wisdom truly meet your fear, self-judgement, frustration and whatever else is there? Love meeting it as it would a child that is lost and scared trying to find its mummy, rather than a ‘separate self’ that you project negative emotional energy towards.

This is a very astute question. Instinctively I feel the answer to "can it" is "yes". But the answer to "does it", is "no". The self-judgement too often is listened to, the comparison of the fictional person against a fictional template of another fictional person, which brings the temptation to push away what is judged as negative or incorrect.

I think this is something that needs to be attended to over time and with patience, but hopefully an increased awareness or focus towards that tendency will start to change the behaviour. What is the point of judging the self negatively, it's not even there - it's just a body, a mind, habits, conditions, none of which were created by me. So when these things arise it should be more a case of looking to them with openness, curiosity even, rather than judgement.

Beautiful, this feels great. There’s nothing to obtain here. Every time I come to answer this thread, it’s always a mystery and an embrace with the unknown. Life seemingly forever renewed. I know nothing but words appear.

You have a wonderful way with words. Sums up my approach to this thread as well.

Sticking and circling is perfect, we can rest into this with patience and compassion now. No need to run from it. Acknowledging the presence and fullness you give to each question even when it feels sticky.

I will try to remember this and endeavour welcome the sticking and circling as much as I welcome signs of progress!

Love

Paddy

[Marcus1144]

Hi Paddy,

I am in Mexico and have been in contact with the tap water here which has given me pretty bad diarrhoea and tiredness.
I will endeavour to respond tomorrow, hopefully my energy comes back by then.

All the best

Marcus

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus,

Of course, I completely understand, take all the time you need to feel better.

Best wishes for a swift recovery!

Paddy

[Marcus1144]

Paddy,

Thanks for that.

Mexico welcomed me with a slap in the face and many hours on the toilet.

Recovering somewhat today hopefully. 


Thank you for this - it's a timely reminder that there is no point trying to expedite or jump to the end of this, merely another illusion of control.

Yes, that ingrained pattern to seek what we long for in some idealised future can be loved/seen/acknowledged for what it is.

You of course know the answer I will have found, but on looking it is clear that the one who is trying is not there.

What is happening could perhaps be better described as habits and conditioning arising.

The trying is happening because it's the usual response.

Yes, seeking, trying, pushing - long established habits that may not disappear like a popping ballon, but more like a tire with a slow puncture, but nothing is certain or indeed known in the 'how' of this unfolding.

Again you write with simple lucidity with the matter at hand.

Such a subtle trap, but definitely something I've fallen into at points during this time looking into non-duality.

This line of questioning leads me to ask what a belief actually is - and of course, it is something that we do not know but choose to respond to as if we do.

So if the illusion of the self is known, what point is there having a belief in it?

A belief is something we do not know, but choose to respond to as if we do, I like this. Very simple.

The great thing about this work is that it can be the transition from taking the word or experience of teachers to being guided to truly investigate for ourselves.

I will descirbe my own experience to breathe into this focus. Do not take it as truth, check for yourself.

Once it is seen/known with that indescribable joyful acceptance and rest (hard to describe), the whole beleif/unbeleif argument seems to fall away in giggles, but doubt can manifest and remanifest, which invites me to look or check again and again with sincere openess to what is seen, kind of like an embodied innocent, naked, honesty. Free of assumptions or expectations.

Nope, no self here. But plenty of things that can be mistaken for one or contribute to the belief in one - personality, habits, conditioning.

Yes, many obstacles to truth and opportunities for refinement and deepening.

It's nice to feel that you are finding a place for the phenomena of illusions and indeed the manifestation of life and personality and knowing where to place them.

This is fascinating question.

On the one hand - I would have to say not having beliefs would be.. lightening? Liberating, I suppose? Going back to that definition of belief as something that isn't known but is held onto as if it was, that activity of clinging to a belief and maintaining it must consume a lot of effort when you imagine the number of beliefs that are being held. Letting go of all of those, letting what is known be known and what is unknown be unknown, and any stories about what the unknown might be just be stories... I can almost feel a loosening up as I ponder this concept.

I agree, much energy must go into maintaining these things, the defending, mentalising, strategising, arguing, upholding, filtering. Simply the resistance to what is.

You write as if beliefs are still there, so can you identify any beliefs that are there?

What do you believe but do not yet fully know?

What do you believe but may never know?

I do feel like there has been some progress towards allowing life to flow this way. Less time and effort seems to go towards controlling the outcome of events, more things seem to be happening naturally. The mental voice seems to shift more towards questioning, sometimes during but more often after the event, "am I really controlling this / did I decide to do that or did I just do it".

Sounds like the mental voice has joined team liberation! Lol.

Feel free to use this space to give any examples if there is any content of experince that is needing that space to be 'presenced' and 'seen' in this dialogue???

Another judgement from the oh-so-enlightened super-ego-boy in my head, I suppose. An image of what "the enlightened one" is like and then casting myself negatively against it. In this case, a belief that the enlightened person doesn't need to retrospectively analyse or reflect because their awareness is already there.

Yes! Haha! Have you grown a halo and got your army of angels yet?

Or are you more of an Eastern enlightened boy, levitating in permanent transecndcent fully aware bliss Nirvana etc? Haha!

Shift happens... only one letter away from a favourite expression of mine, which also seems to sum up the matter quite neatly. haha

Shit definitely happens, 40 times a day currently. Haha!

This is a very astute question. Instinctively I feel the answer to "can it" is "yes". But the answer to "does it", is "no". The self-judgement too often is listened to, the comparison of the fictional person against a fictional template of another fictional person, which brings the temptation to push away what is judged as negative or incorrect.

I think this is something that needs to be attended to over time and with patience, but hopefully an increased awareness or focus towards that tendency will start to change the behaviour. What is the point of judging the self negatively, it's not even there - it's just a body, a mind, habits, conditions, none of which were created by me. So when these things arise it should be more a case of looking to them with openness, curiosity even, rather than judgement.

Beautifully put. This is nothing without Love. Here's to penetrating every nook and cranny.

You have a wonderful way with words. Sums up my approach to this thread as well.

Great, we’re on the same page... Literally. Scroll up! See!

I will try to remember this and endeavour welcome the sticking and circling as much as I welcome signs of progress!

Your words feel peaceful and assured and I can’t feel much doubt as to the recognition of what you’ve seen, so we can trust that life will invite you to recognise this throughout the theatre of its happening. You see conditioning and patterns for what they are and articulate this with fullness.

What do you feel energetically and what do you see when I ask...

Who is now at the gate and who crosses or crossed the gate?

Is there even a gate?

Love

Marcus

[Marcus1144]

To add, your last post was posted 5 times. Not sure why this happened, but just making you aware.

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus,

I hope you're continuing to recover from your Mexican welcome.

Yes, that ingrained pattern to seek what we long for in some idealised future can be loved/seen/acknowledged for what it is.

Seen and acknowledged, certainly. Loving it may take a little longer, perhaps - there is a mild feeling of resentment at the time and energy it's consumed over the years. But as it arises I'm reminded that it was ultimately necessary to bring about what's happening now.

Yes, seeking, trying, pushing - long established habits that may not disappear like a popping ballon, but more like a tire with a slow puncture, but nothing is certain or indeed known in the 'how' of this unfolding.

This rings very true. I think I can say I'm done trying to judge the progress or level of the unfolding. I'm convinced that only constricts things. I am done expecting a sudden change, a dramatic shift, etc. Slow and steady is fine. Shift is definitely happening, I leave the pace and timing up to... well, whatever it's up to.

I will descirbe my own experience to breathe into this focus. Do not take it as truth, check for yourself.

Once it is seen/known with that indescribable joyful acceptance and rest (hard to describe), the whole beleif/unbeleif argument seems to fall away in giggles, but doubt can manifest and remanifest, which invites me to look or check again and again with sincere openess to what is seen, kind of like an embodied innocent, naked, honesty. Free of assumptions or expectations.

This feels true. I would say there is an increasing certainty that there is a certain irrelevance to the mental arguments and questioning. If there is no me to affect the answer, or create one, then the answer will be whatever it will be, or not be found at all. The argument serves no purpose. Things are as they are and will be as they will be. Doubts and questions still arise but don't hold a huge amount of sway here at the moment. It feels like there is a knowing of not knowing, and an increasing acceptance of that.

I agree, much energy must go into maintaining these things, the defending, mentalising, strategising, arguing, upholding, filtering. Simply the resistance to what is.

You write as if beliefs are still there, so can you identify any beliefs that are there?

What do you believe but do not yet fully know?

What do you believe but may never know?

I am finding this hard to answer. Taking a mental inventory I'm not currently finding much I would call a belief. I'm finding assumptions, points of view, opinions, theories.. or things that just feel "known". I certainly have some very strong opinions around political / moral / ethical questions.
I hold assumptions and points of view that come from past experience or intellectual understanding. But again there is that feeling of knowing that I don't know, and that any opinions or assumptions could be proved wrong or change based on new information or experience.

Taking that definition of belief as something we respond to as if we know it, when we don't.. I'm not sure there's anything there. Feels a bit silly to say I have no beliefs, but I struggle to disprove it when I look. That made me chuckle. I'm sure I had some. I wonder where they've gone.

Sounds like the mental voice has joined team liberation! Lol.

Turns out he is on my side after all!

Feel free to use this space to give any examples if there is any content of experince that is needing that space to be 'presenced' and 'seen' in this dialogue???

Examples of where I'm becoming less attached to outcomes and letting things flow? I would have to refer back to that tiny teacher I allegedly parent. I realise now a lot of time and energy went into trying to predict what she was going to do, how she was going to react, planning our the day to try and somehow make her do what I thought she should do. Or, concerning myself with trying to find time for myself, wondering when I'd get a few minutes to relax. The past few days in particular, I've found a lot of that has dropped, or at least moved to the background. The same thoughts arise but less energy is put into dealing with them. It's pointless. I can't control anything, and particularly not a baby. I focus on keeping her safe, making sure she is fed and happy as much as possible, and just do what comes naturally - either responding to what she's doing or a decision I've made, but not agonised over. If I get time to relax, fine. If not, also fine.

Yes! Haha! Have you grown a halo and got your army of angels yet?

Or are you more of an Eastern enlightened boy, levitating in permanent transecndcent fully aware bliss Nirvana etc? Haha!

Haha! Ego-boy would pick the eastern option, an army of angels just sounds like a lot of admin and management and I get enough of those already.

Shit definitely happens, 40 times a day currently. Haha!

There's a "Tao of Poo" joke in there somewhere, I'm sure. Hope you're down to single digits soon :)

Your words feel peaceful and assured and I can’t feel much doubt as to the recognition of what you’ve seen, so we can trust that life will invite you to recognise this throughout the theatre of its happening. You see conditioning and patterns for what they are and articulate this with fullness.

What do you feel energetically and what do you see when I ask...

Who is now at the gate and who crosses or crossed the gate?

Is there even a gate?

Well I certainly can't see a gate. The gate that is being referred to in the question is a concept, so only the conceptual self could cross it, I guess. Since there's no self, there's no gate. It's not something that can be seen or traversed with what's here, the body and mind.

If the concept of "crossing the gate" refers to that kind of "balloon pop" awakening / liberation experience I don't feel like I'll get there, but that's fine and as it should be. There's not enough air left in the balloon to make a pop. Does that make sense?

Oh, and apologies for the 5x posting. Website seemed to have stopped responding and I hit the post button a few times.. Which clearly all worked!

Love
Paddy

[Marcus1144]

Paddy,

Recovery is defitely happening thanks!

Let's keep stewing, tender is the way.

Seen and acknowledged, certainly. Loving it may take a little longer, perhaps - there is a mild feeling of resentment at the time and energy it's consumed over the years. But as it arises I'm reminded that it was ultimately necessary to bring about what's happening now.

Yes, I hear you.

This rings very true. I think I can say I'm done trying to judge the progress or level of the unfolding. I'm convinced that only constricts things. I am done expecting a sudden change, a dramatic shift, etc. Slow and steady is fine. Shift is definitely happening, I leave the pace and timing up to... well, whatever it's up to.

Slow and staeady wins the enlightenment race ;)
Joke btw.

This feels true. I would say there is an increasing certainty that there is a certain irrelevance to the mental arguments and questioning. If there is no me to affect the answer, or create one, then the answer will be whatever it will be, or not be found at all. The argument serves no purpose. Things are as they are and will be as they will be. Doubts and questions still arise but don't hold a huge amount of sway here at the moment. It feels like there is a knowing of not knowing, and an increasing acceptance of that.

Feels very relaxing.

I am finding this hard to answer. Taking a mental inventory I'm not currently finding much I would call a belief. I'm finding assumptions, points of view, opinions, theories.. or things that just feel "known". I certainly have some very strong opinions around political / moral / ethical questions.

I hold assumptions and points of view that come from past experience or intellectual understanding. But again there is that feeling of knowing that I don't know, and that any opinions or assumptions could be proved wrong or change based on new information or experience.

Having convictions around moral or ethical questions isn't good or bad, life is life, personality and such, but could the agenda of the seperate self be muddying the waters so to speak?

Some of the great spiritual masters go after the 'wrongs' in the reletive world and hold pure convictions with compassion, charity, truth and justice etc.

It feels a little off piest, but I am curious about what these 'very strong opinions' are?

If you feel it's relevant I'd like you to write into what some of these are and if possible detect if they are they arising on behalf of the seperate self, its history, fears, conditioing?

To give reason to this question - from my own experince, much of my missionary zeal about 'the way things are' have been calmed from this process and investgating my fear and disgust about what is happening in the world has been so helpful in revealing deep-seated existential/personal fears that were relating to possible death/anihalation/humiliation/punishment/guilt/shame etc.

Basically my world-views were very much wrapped up with my conditioning and I'm curious if there's something here to to investigate?

Taking that definition of belief as something we respond to as if we know it, when we don't.. I'm not sure there's anything there. Feels a bit silly to say I have no beliefs, but I struggle to disprove it when I look. That made me chuckle. I'm sure I had some. I wonder where they've gone.

Hahaha! Hiding behind he sofa!

Examples of where I'm becoming less attached to outcomes and letting things flow? I would have to refer back to that tiny teacher I allegedly parent. I realise now a lot of time and energy went into trying to predict what she was going to do, how she was going to react, planning our the day to try and somehow make her do what I thought she should do. Or, concerning myself with trying to find time for myself, wondering when I'd get a few minutes to relax. The past few days in particular, I've found a lot of that has dropped, or at least moved to the background. The same thoughts arise but less energy is put into dealing with them. It's pointless. I can't control anything, and particularly not a baby. I focus on keeping her safe, making sure she is fed and happy as much as possible, and just do what comes naturally - either responding to what she's doing or a decision I've made, but not agonised over. If I get time to relax, fine. If not, also fine.

Thank you for sharing this. Thought relenting. Ahhhh.

Haha! Ego-boy would pick the eastern option, an army of angels just sounds like a lot of admin and management and I get enough of those already.

Yea I bet they're high mainetence with all that perfect hair and those crisp white gowns!

There's a "Tao of Poo" joke in there somewhere, I'm sure. Hope you're down to single digits soon :)

Nothing more enlightening than looking at our shit.

Well I certainly can't see a gate. The gate that is being referred to in the question is a concept, so only the conceptual self could cross it, I guess. Since there's no self, there's no gate. It's not something that can be seen or traversed with what's here, the body and mind.

If the concept of "crossing the gate" refers to that kind of "balloon pop" awakening / liberation experience I don't feel like I'll get there, but that's fine and as it should be. There's not enough air left in the balloon to make a pop. Does that make sense?

It does! Just to bring to awareness again to what is being adressed here, this is taken from the documents I sent you at the start. "In the context of Liberation Unleashed, liberation refers to the clear, unambiguous and direct realisation of the absence of a separate self. Not everyone (perhaps no one) comes to the Gate without at least some degree of latent tendencies. What we refer to as liberation may not be what you expect of it. Seeing self for what it really is - a story, does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone. In this sense, liberation is just the beginning."

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm stuck in a place that seems to be quite common - relentlessly seeking while being sure I've already seen all the answers. I have read/watched/listened to many teachers and at an intellectual/conceptual level I totally "get" the principle of no-self, but it's not a felt experience. I am still bothered by intrusive thoughts, mental dialogue, suffering - it's like I get lost in my head sometimes. When I'm fully engaged in an activity I am mostly able to remain as such, but it's like there's a part of me that is constantly seeking for some kind of distraction. When I don't have an immediate task at hand, I find myself going back over the same teachings and forums as if some words there are going to fix my problems.

What I am looking for is to not just believe and understand non-duality, but to actually FEEL and KNOW it. I want some respite from the noise in my head, I want to stop seeking, I want to stop going round the loop of spiritual content trying to "get it" or attain some kind of "enlightenment". No matter how often I read this, in my head I think I still conceptualise realisation/liberation as some kind of amazing state. I get confused when I see it described as not so, because it's often followed with a description of old patterns falling away, suffering decreasing etc.. and that sounds pretty damn amazing to me.

This is from your initial post. Feel free to comment on anything that comes as a result of you reading this?

Enjoying your contributions

With Love

Marcus

[Dudeabidin]

Marcus

Good to hear from you as always.

Recovery is defitely happening thanks!

Very glad to hear it!

Having convictions around moral or ethical questions isn't good or bad, life is life, personality and such, but could the agenda of the seperate self be muddying the waters so to speak?

Some of the great spiritual masters go after the 'wrongs' in the reletive world and hold pure convictions with compassion, charity, truth and justice etc.

It feels a little off piest, but I am curious about what these 'very strong opinions' are?

If you feel it's relevant I'd like you to write into what some of these are and if possible detect if they are they arising on behalf of the seperate self, its history, fears, conditioing?

Fascinating and perceptive question.

To clarify what I mean by "very strong" opinions - these aren't necessarily things that I spend a lot of time thinking about. But when I was looking for beliefs, and looking at the quality of the various opinions/views that came up, I had a sense that some were much more "solid" than others in terms of how easily I feel they could be changed or contradicted.

On the one hand, it seems that most if not all of the strong opinions I can identify feel like they are fundamentally based on moral or ethical principles - fairness, justice, kindness, equality, etc. I suppose from a certain point of view these are all "dualistic concepts" but they just feel fundamentally right.

On the other hand, when I examine any of these opinions, I can easily find or at least surmise that they are shaped by the experiences or desires of the separate self. I suppose this is bound to happen - the moral or ethical code of the "individual" is shaped by its environment, conditioning and experiences.

To go into some specifics. In my country (UK) we have a right-wing government that consistently follows policies that make life harder for the poorer members of society while benefiting large corporations and the rich. Their ministers are frequently shown to be liars, corrupt and self-serving. They pursue goals that appear to be based on ideological dogma rather than what is in the true best interests of those that they are meant to serve. They exhibit an air of superiority and condescension in their words and responses, fundamentally they don't appear to genuinely care about the "little people". I am - as you can probably tell - very firm in my opinion that such governments and politicians should not have the power that they do. So, on the one hand, I could say that these views come from a basic moral/ethical framework valuing fairness, equality, the right of everyone to have opportunity. On the other, these are shaped by my own experiences. I have been poor, I have been homeless, I have been unemployed and struggling to feed myself, unable to make my way forward. While that is not my experience now, some residue from that clearly carries over.

I have very strong opinions when it comes to the world of work, the way that many employers seem to behave - not paying their staff well, not providing safe or comfortable working conditions, demanding more time than is due, seeking to influence or control the personal lives of their staff. Again, feels like it is based in those principles of fairness, but also clearly derived from my own experiences in the workplace and a general dislike of being controlled, a sadness at having to spend large amounts of my time on this planet doing things I don't particularly want to do for people I don't want to have "over" me. This was much more pronounced when I was employed by "for-profit" companies, I would find myself very annoyed that the end goal of my labour was to increase the profits of some anonymous shareholders rather than positively impact anyone's life.

I am strongly opposed to racism/sexism/homophobia/classism etc and all those who propagate it. Largely these have not been my direct experience as a straight white male, but my past experiences of being in poverty, and even back to being bullied during my schooldays, undoubtedly play into it.

I have very strong opinions about how people should be treated in relationships - professional and personal. I hate to see people exploited, abused, taken advantage of etc. Again, a mix of ethics and my own experience coming into play.

I strongly believe in the value of truth and knowledge, so I can react strongly against misinformation and lies, especially those who spread them to others to further their own agenda at the expense of those they spread them to. The anti-vaccine profiteers, Covid-deniers, the Brexit movement in my country, all would cause a sense of despair especially when you would see their lies being parrotted by "regular" people.

I could go on, but I think this is more than enough of a sample. I do think it's worth mentioning that my relationship to these opinions seems to have shifted somewhat of late. If they arise in a situation or conversation, my conviction about these opinions is just as strong. I don't think anyone could convince me to vote for a right-wing government, to support racist policies, to restrict workers' rights, etc. But on reflection, I notice that a lot of time used to be spent actively following such topics, almost seeking outrage (which sounds ridiculous when you write it down). I'd follow politics very closely, and feel deep emotional responses to what I saw. Now, I still read the news, I still follow up on topics that interest me, but I'm more mindful of the fact that I can't control or influence such things, that hatred and corruption will always exist, and while I still stand against them it serves very little purpose to obsess over them.

To give reason to this question - from my own experince, much of my missionary zeal about 'the way things are' have been calmed from this process and investgating my fear and disgust about what is happening in the world has been so helpful in revealing deep-seated existential/personal fears that were relating to possible death/anihalation/humiliation/punishment/guilt/shame etc.

Basically my world-views were very much wrapped up with my conditioning and I'm curious if there's something here to to investigate?

It has certainly been interesting to look at. Undoubtedly there are some fears at the root of some of the stances I take - I feel strongly about the rights of the less fortunate because there is some residual fear of being one of those myself, a fear of having my own rights and freedoms restricted, of becoming poor and being unable to provide for myself and my family. The money side of things is an interesting one - I don't particularly fear poverty for myself, I sometimes think I could quite happily just live in a tent in the woods, disconnect from society and forage for my needs, but I sense I carry some fear for those that depend on my ability to provide and (to a lesser extent) the judgement of others if I was to fall down the social ladder.

Just to bring to awareness again to what is being adressed here, this is taken from the documents I sent you at the start. "In the context of Liberation Unleashed, liberation refers to the clear, unambiguous and direct realisation of the absence of a separate self. Not everyone (perhaps no one) comes to the Gate without at least some degree of latent tendencies. What we refer to as liberation may not be what you expect of it. Seeing self for what it really is - a story, does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone. In this sense, liberation is just the beginning."

Thank you for the reminder. I did read this at the time but didn't refer back to it when you asked about "the Gate" again. When I read this before, when I started this thread, I was looking at it as a description of "what might happen". Now it reads more like an apt description of "what has happened".

So yes, liberation would seem to have happened. As it says, old habits/beliefs/programming/conditioning does remain, but the conditions for these to drop away certainly exist. It certainly feels like a beginning more than an end.


Your final question pointed me back to my initial post on this thread. It was very interesting to read it again - it's actually quite remarkable how my perspective on what I've written seems to have shifted in a relatively short amount of time. Rather than respond in a massive block I'll break it down a little.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm stuck in a place that seems to be quite common - relentlessly seeking while being sure I've already seen all the answers.

This is no longer the case. I don't feel stuck, and I wouldn't say I'm really seeking any more.

I have read/watched/listened to many teachers and at an intellectual/conceptual level I totally "get" the principle of no-self, but it's not a felt experience.

I sense there was some romanticising of the "felt experience" happening here. I said it wasn't a felt experience because I wasn't feeling the experience I expected - enlightened ego-boy still wanted to levitate.

I am still bothered by intrusive thoughts, mental dialogue, suffering - it's like I get lost in my head sometimes.

A lot of judgements here, when I read it again. I still experience thoughts that pull at my attention and I still hear mental dialogue. I wouldn't say I judge the thoughts as intrusive and try to resist them, they just happen. Some thoughts can still cause that stomach feeling that I equate to suffering - for instance, my thoughts sometimes seemingly spontaneously bring up memories of past actions or situations that I feel regret or shame about - but that feeling, and the thought, are just allowed to go.

When I'm fully engaged in an activity I am mostly able to remain as such, but it's like there's a part of me that is constantly seeking for some kind of distraction.

Judgement, again. The "seeking for distraction" largely references things like phone-scrolling or looking for podcasts/music/games etc when there's other stuff going on. I still do these things but I don't judge them as "distractions". The mind is seeking stimulation and that's just what's happening, I don't look on those behaviours as inherently negative just by labelling it as "distraction". There is another category of "distraction" that links to the next line, and here there has been a change of habit:

When I don't have an immediate task at hand, I find myself going back over the same teachings and forums as if some words there are going to fix my problems.

Yeah this is definitely not the case now. I still find myself occasionally looking at non-duality forums/videos but not with the same drive or purpose. When reading forums it's more out of an interest in what other people are asking or how their questions are being answered, more out of curiosity rather than finding something for myself. As for the videos, I seldom even finish watching them now, it comes from the same curiosity combined with a lingering fondness for some of the teachers I've enjoyed listening to. If I'm looking for anything there it's more a comforting reminder rather than trying to GET something.

What I am looking for is to not just believe and understand non-duality, but to actually FEEL and KNOW it.

More romanticising, I think. Capitals for emphasis by ego-boy.

I want some respite from the noise in my head, I want to stop seeking, I want to stop going round the loop of spiritual content trying to "get it" or attain some kind of "enlightenment".

Tick in the box there. Think there was a subtle meaning of "I want the noise in my head to stop" which I wouldn't say has happened, but it doesn't bother me as much or engender as much emotional feeling.

No matter how often I read this, in my head I think I still conceptualise realisation/liberation as some kind of amazing state.

...and I can see why. If I'd read some of my answers today when I first made the post, I'd probably think the "me" writing this now was in some amazing state of bliss. Which I'm really not, but nevertheless, today's answers are what's happening.

I get confused when I see it described as not so, because it's often followed with a description of old patterns falling away, suffering decreasing etc.. and that sounds pretty damn amazing to me.

This feels less confusing now. At least in my case, these changes seem to be happening gradually, imperceptibly. No big bang or fireworks here. In fact it's only on going back over my previous words and responding to your questions that I really appreciate how much things seem to have changed.

I'm definitely not "stuck in seeking", to quote the thread title. It feels more like I'm in the process of integrating this understanding into my life, reconciling my old habits/behaviours/beliefs/opinions with this new perspective - but this isn't something I'm actively "seeking" or even "doing". When thoughts and feelings arise I sometimes feel a pull to give a little focus to investigating them, so I do. Others, I don't see anything that needs to be queried, so I let them play themselves out. I still occasionally behave in a way that seems to come from a place of emotional reactivity, but after the fact I just look into the nature and cause of it rather than harshly judging myself for what I did.

I think I've written quite enough to be going on with. This has been a very "enlightening" exercise, to re-look at words from before and see the gap between the "then" and the "now". I seem to have made more progress than I had given "myself" credit for. Interested to see what you make of my responses.

Love
Paddy

[Marcus1144]

Paddy,

Thank you for the thoroughness and openness in your answering, makes my job quite easy.

Let's investigate your responses a bit.

To clarify what I mean by "very strong" opinions - these aren't necessarily things that I spend a lot of time thinking about. But when I was looking for beliefs, and looking at the quality of the various opinions/views that came up, I had a sense that some were much more "solid" than others in terms of how easily I feel they could be changed or contradicted.

On the one hand, it seems that most if not all of the strong opinions I can identify feel like they are fundamentally based on moral or ethical principles - fairness, justice, kindness, equality, etc. I suppose from a certain point of view these are all "dualistic concepts" but they just feel fundamentally right.

On the other hand, when I examine any of these opinions, I can easily find or at least surmise that they are shaped by the experiences or desires of the separate self. I suppose this is bound to happen - the moral or ethical code of the "individual" is shaped by its environment, conditioning and experiences.

To go into some specifics. In my country (UK) we have a right-wing government that consistently follows policies that make life harder for the poorer members of society while benefiting large corporations and the rich.

Their ministers are frequently shown to be liars, corrupt and self-serving.

They pursue goals that appear to be based on ideological dogma rather than what is in the true best interests of those that they are meant to serve.

They exhibit an air of superiority and condescension in their words and responses, fundamentally they don't appear to genuinely care about the "little people".

I am - as you can probably tell - very firm in my opinion that such governments and politicians should not have the power that they do.

So, on the one hand, I could say that these views come from a basic moral/ethical framework valuing fairness, equality, the right of everyone to have opportunity.

On the other, these are shaped by my own experiences. I have been poor, I have been homeless, I have been unemployed and struggling to feed myself, unable to make my way forward.

While that is not my experience now, some residue from that clearly carries over.

I have very strong opinions when it comes to the world of work, the way that many employers seem to behave - not paying their staff well, not providing safe or comfortable working conditions, demanding more time than is due, seeking to influence or control the personal lives of their staff.

Again, feels like it is based in those principles of fairness, but also clearly derived from my own experiences in the workplace and a general dislike of being controlled, a sadness at having to spend large amounts of my time on this planet doing things I don't particularly want to do for people I don't want to have "over" me.

This was much more pronounced when I was employed by "for-profit" companies, I would find myself very annoyed that the end goal of my labour was to increase the profits of some anonymous shareholders rather than positively impact anyone's life.

I am strongly opposed to racism/sexism/homophobia/classism etc and all those who propagate it.

Largely these have not been my direct experience as a straight white male, but my past experiences of being in poverty, and even back to being bullied during my schooldays, undoubtedly play into it.

I have very strong opinions about how people should be treated in relationships - professional and personal.

I hate to see people exploited, abused, taken advantage of etc. Again, a mix of ethics and my own experience coming into play.

I strongly believe in the value of truth and knowledge, so I can react strongly against misinformation and lies, especially those who spread them to others to further their own agenda at the expense of those they spread them to.

The anti-vaccine profiteers, Covid-deniers, the Brexit movement in my country, all would cause a sense of despair especially when you would see their lies being parrotted by "regular" people.

I could go on, but I think this is more than enough of a sample.

I do think it's worth mentioning that my relationship to these opinions seems to have shifted somewhat of late.

If they arise in a situation or conversation, my conviction about these opinions is just as strong.

I don't think anyone could convince me to vote for a right-wing government, to support racist policies, to restrict workers' rights, etc.

But on reflection, I notice that a lot of time used to be spent actively following such topics, almost seeking outrage (which sounds ridiculous when you write it down).

I'd follow politics very closely, and feel deep emotional responses to what I saw.

Now, I still read the news, I still follow up on topics that interest me, but I'm more mindful of the fact that I can't control or influence such things, that hatred and corruption will always exist, and while I still stand against them

it serves very little purpose to obsess over them.

Thank you for this.

Perhaps we can discuss this in more depth one day with more of an open focus.

Feels a little ambitious to approach this subject, keeping the focus on our aim here.

As such, with my below questions, if you feel the answer is a philosophical one, please just leave the question alone and don't answer it for now.

For now I too will avoid getting into philosophical discussion, to keep our focus where it needs to be.

Our aim here is to see through the separate self and recognise where we are mistaking what is not 'real' for reality.

Once the core illusion of the self has been seen, the assumption we work with here is that the foundation is dismantled, as it seems to go this way for many.

What is seemingly tied to this belief in the separate self can gradually fall away.

Again, nothing is certain, what happens is simply what happens.

You have acknowledged where your past experiences have shaped your world views but I have got my trowel out and want to check if there are any weeds here.

Weeds in this garden are where thoughts, perceptions, positions etc. are being mistaken for what is real.

You've addressed this to a degree in your posting so you may not find anything new, but I invite you to read through your last paragraphs and look at it as if your words had some kind of emotional or mental theme running through them.

Look for unifying themes and ask - is that true?

A clue is to see the word 'I' and follow where that goes - then ask.... Is it true?

What position is the separate self holding and how does this colour or paint the world he is seeing?

Have you considered the possibility that the 'world' is empty and that we paint it with our perceptions?

Who are you without these convictions?

Have you considered that if it wasn't politicians or employers it might be something else that had/has power over 'you', that maintains this subtle fight with reality?

You see with certainty covid-deniers and parroting, another will see with certainty an authoritarian takeover of the world?

Is one right? Or do they all have a place here? Or is there a truth that is beyond?

As I read your words its apparent that there is a kind of awakening throughout these lived experiences, truth and love weaving into your life experiences, dispelling bullshit and unconsciousness on a relative level.

The intention here is not to limit or question the way love and truth transforms and brings beauty to life, but simply to see how the stories, thoughts and perceptions that get generated on behalf of someone and even about what has happened may not actually be whats happening or has happened.

For example, how can we ever truly know another persons motivations?

To conclude and I share without an agenda to change minds, I am also from the UK. I had a vision about 18 months ago. Sometimes it happens in meditation. These strong mystical visions of Love that transcend what I know.

I was with my family. We were stood across the river from parliament. Suddenly a wave of love came over me, compassion I'd never felt before - and it was for politicians. It was as if I became them for a moment, felt the ways they suffer, the burdens and responsibilities they carry, the level of public condemnation, ridicule, hatred and surveillance they receive and most painfully, and it sounds funny, but the complete lack of gratitude they receive. I wept audibly. Felt quite jarring. Stories inherent in this yes, but also the integration of our shared being.

Less to say, my view of politicians changed a bit after that.

Some quite meaty, mindy topics here, some good practice to keep the focus on whats real.

Thank you for you reflections about your initial post.

So interesting to read how qualities like peace, acceptance and letting go are weaving into your lived experience, I relate to your experiences of romanticising and judging.

Yes so much of this is imperceivable subtle change that reveals itself in moments of noticing how we used to react/be in certain circumstances. Quite undramatic really.

Interesting how the nature of Youtube habits/Sangha attendance can give clarity to so many about where we're 'at'.

Also find it reassuring that the voice that once needed to capitalise it's desires about where this was going is now 'in the process of integrating this understanding into my life, reconciling my old habits/behaviours/beliefs/opinions with this new perspective - but this isn't something I'm actively "seeking" or even "doing".

Very clear, nothing to flag or highlight.

Looking forward to your responses.

Thanks for being open.

With Love

Marcus

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus,

Hope you're well.

Thank you for the thoroughness and openness in your answering, makes my job quite easy.

Glad to hear you're not finding me too much "hard work".

Thank you for this.

Perhaps we can discuss this in more depth one day with more of an open focus.

I look forward to it :)

Feels a little ambitious to approach this subject, keeping the focus on our aim here.

As such, with my below questions, if you feel the answer is a philosophical one, please just leave the question alone and don't answer it for now.

For now I too will avoid getting into philosophical discussion, to keep our focus where it needs to be.

Duly noted!

You have acknowledged where your past experiences have shaped your world views but I have got my trowel out and want to check if there are any weeds here.

Weeds in this garden are where thoughts, perceptions, positions etc. are being mistaken for what is real.

You're like a spiritual Alan Titchmarsh!

You've addressed this to a degree in your posting so you may not find anything new, but I invite you to read through your last paragraphs and look at it as if your words had some kind of emotional or mental theme running through them.

Look for unifying themes and ask - is that true?

A clue is to see the word 'I' and follow where that goes - then ask.... Is it true?

The unifying theme seems to be control, if I had to boil it down to a single word. Resentment of, or resistance to, those that I perceive as having power over me, over others, or over the conditions in which people live. A desire to be free.

Trying to dig deeper, it could also be expressed as there being a desire for the world to be a certain way, resistance to the fact that it isn't what "I" want it to be, and resentment directed towards those I see as being responsible for that situation. A desire to be free may also be a desire to be in control.

Is this true? I find this a very sticky question (though this is now welcomed as an opportunity for learning!). If there are no separate selves and no control, just bodies and minds responding according to their environments and their conditioning, then the idea that "someone" has control over "me" seems to fall apart somewhat. Cause and effect is an unbroken web of myriad chains stretching back beyond the first atom. The self does not see things in this way, preferring to assign a single cause to a single effect following the simplest straight line.

To the self, it is easy to call this true, even with some of this new understanding, until one tries to consider the wider implications of it in terms of "others". It can be said that I have no control, that I respond naturally according to my environment/situation and conditioning/habit/preferences - but there is still a feeling that the environment/situation side of this equation is influenced by the actions of others. Politicians, for instance, seem to make decisions that determine the conditions to which other body/mind entities then respond to. But in the absence of separate selves, they too are responding to their own environment and situation in accordance with their conditioning, which in turn are shaped by preceding factors. If there is no "me" to be responsible for the actions that have been taken or decisions that have been made, then there is no "them" either.

What position is the separate self holding and how does this colour or paint the world he is seeing?

That the world could be better. People more free. Life more peaceful. That so much time is wasted, and so much needless suffering caused, in the pursuit of money and power. All positions that the self takes on behalf of itself, and then also applies to the rest of the world, perhaps. The world is seen in terms of the gap between what "should be" and what "is", and found to be lacking. When in reality, of course, there is only "what is".

Have you considered the possibility that the 'world' is empty and that we paint it with our perceptions?

I find it hard to see the world as "empty", quite the reverse, but I certainly agree that we see through perceptual filters that can cause massive variance in what we see it as being "full of".

Perhaps it is the difficulty of understanding the filters that others see things through that causes such turmoil over some things. For instance, it is hard for me to see how anyone can look at the destruction and decline of our climate and ecosystems and not perceive it to be a situation that there is a moral imperative to resolve. Clearly, however, there are those who look at this same thing and do not perceive it as an existential threat to the world. Not being able to understand those views, the natural response of the self is to judge, to feel anger and resentment.

Who are you without these convictions?

The answer that seems to come is.. vulnerable. There is a sense that without convictions that stand me apart from controlling influences I morally or ethically opposed to, that I would be lost somehow - more able to be controlled or influenced.

Have you considered that if it wasn't politicians or employers it might be something else that had/has power over 'you', that maintains this subtle fight with reality?

I suspect this would be the case, yes.. as long as there is the feeling of being controlled, there will be an inclination to find a controller to fight or struggle against.

You see with certainty covid-deniers and parroting, another will see with certainty an authoritarian takeover of the world?

At some later point when we're having a philosophical conversation I have a few paragraphs ready to go on this one :)

Is one right? Or do they all have a place here? Or is there a truth that is beyond?

Feels like there is a truth that lies beneath, at least. That such positions can be traced back to the fears of a separate self, to ideas about control.

And yet - hey, I found a belief behind the sofa - I still believe there are true facts and lies. When a position is held based on a framework of assumptions that can be factually disproven by what is seen and heard and experienced, it still feels like they should be challenged, or at least that one is "right" and one is "wrong".

As I read your words its apparent that there is a kind of awakening throughout these lived experiences, truth and love weaving into your life experiences, dispelling bullshit and unconsciousness on a relative level.

Can I book you in advance to write my obituary?

How can we ever truly know another persons motivations?

We can't. We can make our best working assumption based on their words and their actions, but it can never be denied that the underlying motivation may be completely different to what is assumed. It is hard when it comes to my views on (some) politicians, for example - we hear so many words and see so many of their actions and the seeming consequences, that it is hard not to take a position on them even if one accepts that it may not reflect their underlying motivations.

To conclude and I share without an agenda to change minds, I am also from the UK. I had a vision about 18 months ago. Sometimes it happens in meditation. These strong mystical visions of Love that transcend what I know.

I was with my family. We were stood across the river from parliament. Suddenly a wave of love came over me, compassion I'd never felt before - and it was for politicians. It was as if I became them for a moment, felt the ways they suffer, the burdens and responsibilities they carry, the level of public condemnation, ridicule, hatred and surveillance they receive and most painfully, and it sounds funny, but the complete lack of gratitude they receive. I wept audibly. Felt quite jarring. Stories inherent in this yes, but also the integration of our shared being.

Less to say, my view of politicians changed a bit after that.

Thank you for sharing this. It seems that you are open to love and empathy on a wider level, and that's beautiful. And there's undoubtedly some lines in here that I find agreement with, although truthfully when it comes to certain politicians I find it hard to shake the conviction that the pressure they face or the lack of gratitude they receive seems minor in comparison to what they inflict on others. Our own country aside, for instance, I would find it hard to have empathy for Putin's lack of gratitude received, given his actions.

Some quite meaty, mindy topics here, some good practice to keep the focus on whats real.

And I hope I've successfully kept my answers away from the philosophical and into those weeds you were looking for. This has been another fascinating exercise of challenging and examining assumptions and perceptions, and trying to look for the roots. Not just in answering the questions but also looking at what arises as the answers come - seeing (and letting go of) a desire to find the "right" answer or somehow defend my views/beliefs/assumptions, in favour of just writing down what comes.

Much love to you

Paddy

[Marcus1144]

Paddy,

Thanks!

Let's get stuck in.

FYI I have't given response to every comment.

Is this true? I find this a very sticky question (though this is now welcomed as an opportunity for learning!). If there are no separate selves and no control, just bodies and minds responding according to their environments and their conditioning, then the idea that "someone" has control over "me" seems to fall apart somewhat. Cause and effect is an unbroken web of myriad chains stretching back beyond the first atom. The self does not see things in this way, preferring to assign a single cause to a single effect following the simplest straight line.

Kinda cute really!
But are you sure there was a 'first atom', beyond the dreamt interpretation of 'things'?
Can you tell me all abut time?
Who experiences time?

To the self, it is easy to call this true, even with some of this new understanding, until one tries to consider the wider implications of it in terms of "others".

It can be said that I have no control, that I respond naturally according to my environment/situation and conditioning/habit/preferences - but there is still a feeling that the environment/situation side of this equation is influenced by the actions of others.

Politicians, for instance, seem to make decisions that determine the conditions to which other body/mind entities then respond to.

But in the absence of separate selves, they too are responding to their own environment and situation in accordance with their conditioning, which in turn are shaped by preceding factors.

If there is no "me" to be responsible for the actions that have been taken or decisions that have been made, then there is no "them" either.

Great, so lets go a little deeper.

This conversation can develop into one of how awakening meets the issues of the world. How this realsiation is embodied, but lets save that for a later date.

One reason to ask such a question is to see if there is defensiveness, squirming, fear and resistance that is hiding out in sneaky places.

The 'world' and the perception of it might be a convenient place to hide unconscious fears as it's 'out there'.

It's 'someone' or 'something' else's issue.

Satisfyingly, you maintain a willingness to test your assumptions with the answering.

So getting into the subtlies here.

By seeing there is ultimately no seperate 'other'.

Can you see that there is no seperation?

No seperation between 'you' and 'politicians'?

There is no 'you' that can allow or grant life to be as it is?

No 'you' to benefit from from this and no 'you' to better this.

There is simply realisation that life is.

Can you see this beyond the conceptual?

Can you feel the implication of this realsiation?

What a releif? No?

This is not about 'someone' bypassing the issues in the world, but purifying the way it is seen and acted within.

Trust that what is here, when everything is stripped away, is 'right', is 'okay', just 'is'. No fight. No seperation.

Can feel the poetry engine revving up. I'll stop here.

The answer that seems to come is.. vulnerable. There is a sense that without convictions that stand me apart from controlling influences I morally or ethically opposed to, that I would be lost somehow - more able to be controlled or influenced.

Sounds like a bad dream where you're trying your hardest to find a solution but nothing works. Yes dropping this armour can bring feelings of vulnerability.

Feel into your direct experience - who do these ethics belong to?
Are they not just words that attempt to describe the inherentness of life?

When a position is held based on a framework of assumptions that can be factually disproven by what is seen and heard and experienced, it still feels like they should be challenged, or at least that one is "right" and one is "wrong".

The eternal cat and mouse.

We can't. We can make our best working assumption based on their words and their actions, but it can never be denied that the underlying motivation may be completely different to what is assumed.

It is hard when it comes to my views on (some) politicians, for example - we hear so many words and see so many of their actions and the seeming consequences, that it is hard not to take a position on them even if one accepts that it may not reflect their underlying motivations.

21st century Koan. Amber or Johnny? Who dunnit?

And I hope I've successfully kept my answers away from the philosophical and into those weeds you were looking for. This has been another fascinating exercise of challenging and examining assumptions and perceptions, and trying to look for the roots.

Not just in answering the questions but also looking at what arises as the answers come - seeing (and letting go of) a desire to find the "right" answer or somehow defend my views/beliefs/assumptions, in favour of just writing down what comes.

Great stuff Paddy, I'm curious, is there anything you have an interest in looking at or anhything that is unclear for you or are you ready to look at the final questions soon?

Love

Marcus