Nothing is divine

[luciddreamer]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
By no real inherent 'self' I understand that there is no one running the show and what 'I' consider as 'I' is just a thought that seems to claim ownership of other thoughts, yet 'I' itself doesn't exist, there is no one to claim anything. Ultimately, it means that life is living itself without anyone behind it directing it.
What are you looking for at LU?
I want to finally end this seeking. If I'm honest, what I'm looking for is freedom, freedom from identification with the self, freedom to just be without the constant striving to be someone or something. I just want to get over with this once and for all and see without doubt and confusion. Intellectually, I get the whole no-self thing and there are glimpses of it but there still seems to be something lacking because I keep falling back into identification with self.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
From a guided conversation I expect to move past the hurdles that prevent "me" from seeing what is and move beyond just intellectually understanding this to finally come to the firm unambiguous knowing that 'I' doesn't exist.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was raised Catholic and was always interested in mysticism and finding out what's really going on. After having recognized how destructive Christianity was for me, my seeking for some kind of final truth took more of an intellectual inquiry form, mostly study and thinking. I never considered myself part of any belief system but always felt more drawn to the Eastern traditions. After having had my first psychedelic experience, I focused on that for a while as I thought that's where it's at. Additionally, I have been meditating for ~six years in a variety of ways. My practice started with focusing on the breath and eventually reached a place where I'm just sitting with whatever is present without trying to direct anything. I've also been practicing yoga and dream work (e.g. lucid dreaming) for 4-5 years and other inner work modalities like shadow work, holotropic breathwork, and inner journeying. Most recently (a year or so) I have been focusing on self-enquiry and others ways of direct inquiry into my experience.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bananafish]

Hi luciddreamer. :) My name is Kento, one of the guides here.
I'd be more than glad to be your guide.

When you're ready, please let me know where you are stuck at
on your journey to truth, so that we could use it as a springboard for
our dialogue.

Warm wishes,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

Thank you for volunteering to guide me. Feel free to call me Toni.

Sorry for my late reply, I have been on vacation.

So, actually, during my vacation, I feel like something has happened. I know that 'I' doesn't exist and I don't believe the story anymore. Yet, the sense of being a separate self is not gone. When I investigate into that feeling, I see that it's just that, a feeling.

This might be an assumption but isn't "awakening" annihilation of the sense of a separate self?

Warm wishes,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Hi Toni! Glad to hear from you. :)

When I investigate into that feeling, I see that it's just that, a feeling.

This sounds like a bit of intellectualization or oversimplification. When you say or think "It's just ..."
be careful, as there's always a possibility that you are simply intellectualizing some understanding.


Let's dive into this. First, please feel into that feeling and describe it as precise as you can.


Warm wishes,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento!

It's strange, when I first notice the feeling it feels kind of sticky and for some reason my attention wanders to the chest area but when I feel into that feeling it seems like nowhere or nothing. It's as if I only become aware of it after it has occurred not while it is occurring. I also notice that when there are no thoughts, the feeling doesn't seem to be present but even when thoughts arise I can't put a finger on it.

Warm wishes,
Toni

[Bananafish]

NIce observation, Toni. :)


What makes you relate that seemingly elusive feeling with the sense of separate self?


Warm wishes,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento! :)

That's a really good question.

So I sat with this for a while and the only answer to this seems to be that, a thought arises that says so. Apart from that, I don't see any reason why this feeling should mean to be the sense of a separate self.

Warm wishes,
Toni

[Bananafish]

Hi. :)

So I sat with this for a while and the only answer to this seems to be that, a thought arises that says so. Apart from that, I don't see any reason why this feeling should mean to be the sense of a separate self.

Ok, now, without that thought, what is it? Could you dive into that particular feeling, and describe it further?


Warm regards,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento! :)

The best way I can describe it is that it's like subtle energy. There is no beginning or end to it, it's kind of calm, it doesn't change, it doesn't seem to be localized, and it seems to be around all the time. I would almost call it a non-feeling as feeling doesn't really seem to describe it accurately.

Kind regards,
Toni

[Bananafish]

Hi Toni. :)


Does that feeling feel separate (from anything) or concrete (in the sense that it's unchanging)?
Please continue observing it and report.


Warm regards,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento :)

So I spent some time observing and no it doesn't feel separate or concrete. I tried to think about how to describe it but every description seemed clumsy, but right now it hit me: There is nothing to observe.

Kind regards,
Luka

[luciddreamer]

P.S. Might as well call me Luka now. ^^

[Bananafish]

Hi Luka. :)

There is nothing to observe.

Could you feel into it further and clarify this point a bit more?


Kind regards,

Kento

[luciddreamer]

Hi Kento, :)

Every time I intend to observe this "feeling," I can't find anything to observe, but what is appearing is the observation itself. So when I want to observe the sense of separate self, it's as if I want to observe myself, but myself is nowhere, so all that*s left is observation with no one observing and nothing to observe. What I thought was the sense of separate self was simply a feeling with a thought or vice versa and when the feeling nor the thought are the sense of separate self, well then there is nothing left because there is no sense of separate self.

Kind regards,
Luka

[Bananafish]

Hi Luka. :)

How does it feel to find that out? Does it feel any different from when we
started this conversation?

Regards,

Kento