Stuck in fear

[nellie]

Hello,

Apologies for my late response, I couldn’t reply the last few days.

When I say : you have 100 dollars in your pocket, is it true ? You look and see that there is not the case. Is it necessary to see at every moment of a day or when it is seen it cannot be unseen. Now have you seen for sure that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form ?

I understand this because it’s something literal, you look for the money but when it’s a thought like ‘I’m not good enough’ ‘ my father never loved me’ or something along these lines that have been believed for so long. How can you really look to see if it’s true.

Who or what is believing the thoughts ? Is not “believing thoughts” another thought ?
Who or what has an attachment ?
Is there a fear of losing something ? Which never existed ? which does not exist? Which will never be ?

It took me a long time looking at this and I’m still not sure I have the answer. The thought I can see as thought but the belief seems to be a physical sensation. With some thoughts there’s nothing and then others like a physical pull.

Yes absolutely there is a fear of losing something. That’s why when I try and look it’s like 100’s of thoughts appear to ‘grab’ my attention. Thinking is confortable, it’s habitual, I’ve functioned this way for so long. There is a strong physical sensation when thinking about this ‘loss’

Thoughts of an I are attaching to the thoughts and with a physical sensation seems to have a certain energy.

I think I’ve gone a few steps back here.

Many thanks

nel

[warissem]

Hi Nel

The clue of this forum is LOOKING AT DIRECT EXPERIENCE : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Concepts and thoughts will serve only to communicate. When you call on thoughts, it is called distraction : it means there is a resistance to look. You said you are afraid to lose something : there is nothing to lose. When I say : there is a tiger in your room. You look with eyes open and see that there is no tiger in reality, it is just a thought. And there is no tiger lost because it is not there in the first place. That is what I was hammering from the beginning of our dialog : there is no you, no separate self to lose because it was never there. Now, instead of going to thoughts, go for a walk and be open to direct experience : describe for me what is seen, what is heard, what is smelt, what is tasted, what are the sensations.

After coming back with the narrative, give answers to these questions :

Is there a separate self, a you in "what is seen" ?
is there a separate self in "what is heard" ?
is there a separate self in "what is smelt ? or tasted" ?
is there a separate self in sensations ?

Take your time for it and give answers after DOING the looking : it means don't give answers through imagination of the scene.

Warissem

[nellie]

Hello warissem,

I’m sorry I have not yet replied. I have been off work with an infection but am on the mend now. I wanted to do the exercise properly by walking outside so I will try and get out, at least In the garden this afternoon.

Many thanks

Nel

[warissem]

Good evening

I wish you a fast recovery. Take your time : it is better to wait and do the exercise the right way.

Kind regards

Warissem

[nellie]

Thank you for your understanding.

Many thanks

Nel

[nellie]

Hello,

So I walked for a long time this morning. This task was tough.
Overall there were times when everything was just happening, there was no control, no me doing anything, it was just happening. Like everything moving, seeing, hearing as one. However, it’s usually seconds before thought kicks in and starts labelling things.

Is there a separate self, a you in "what is seen" ?
is there a separate self in "what is heard" ?
is there a separate self in "what is smelt ? or tasted" ?
is there a separate self in sensations ?

In what is seen: looking was just looking in the moment of looking there was no me, just absorbing the scene in front of me, after thoughts label and add concepts which then gave me the idea that there’s a me looking as the internal dialogue starts.

What is heard: this one was a bit clearer as there was no me just hearing. There seemed more of a distinction that hearing was an ‘object’ and not belonging to a me. I also had the sensation that it was not just hearing that it was felt as a whole experience.

What is smelt: there was no me in this, this is connected to breathing and I don’t control my breathing. It just happens. For smell labelling was the problem, it felt like almost instantly smells were labelled.

What is felt: I could feel the breeze on my face, the pressure of the ground under my feet, the movement of my body. No me controlling this was felt but again the question kept arising, but who is feeling it? How do you know sensation is being felt if there is no one to feel it.

Many thanks,

nel

[warissem]

Hi nel

So I walked for a long time this morning. This task was tough.
Overall there were times when everything was just happening, there was no control, no me doing anything, it was just happening. Like everything moving, seeing, hearing as one. However, it’s usually seconds before thought kicks in and starts labelling things.

Yes, great observations.

In what is seen: looking was just looking in the moment of looking there was no me,

Just keep in mind that we speak about direct experience :is there a you when there is no looking ? Would you describe it ?

just absorbing the scene in front of me, after thoughts label and add concepts which then gave me the idea that there’s a me looking as the internal dialogue starts.

The key is to LOOK : is there a you in plain view or is it only in thoughts ?

What is heard: this one was a bit clearer as there was no me just hearing. There seemed more of a distinction that hearing was an ‘object’ and not belonging to a me. I also had the sensation that it was not just hearing that it was felt as a whole experience.

Good, there is no you, it never was, it never will be.

What is smelt: there was no me in this, this is connected to breathing and I don’t control my breathing. It just happens. For smell labelling was the problem, it felt like almost instantly smells were labelled.

It is not YOUR breathing, it is simply breathing.

What is felt: I could feel the breeze on my face, the pressure of the ground under my feet, the movement of my body.

It is not your face nor your feet, the body is not yours : there is no you, is it true ?

No me controlling this was felt but again the question kept arising, but who is feeling it? How do you know sensation is being felt if there is no one to feel it

Who wants to know ? Look at what is behind the “who” : what is found ?

There is feeling of sensations, there is knowing of them. There is knowing of walking, of raining, of thoughts, emotions, sensations, … It does not need you to happen. In other words : does this knowing needs you to be OR knowing is happening on automatic, like labeling, like thinking, like walking, etc …
Write back what is arising.

Best wishes

Warissem

[nellie]

Hello,

I understand what you're saying, there is no need for a me that all of this is happening to. But unfortunately I can't feel it, I've tried and I want to discard this 'me' that's always lingering in the background. I know it has no substance and it's not real but nonetheless the thoughts remain in constant succession keeping 'me' in the picture.

Many thanks

nel

[warissem]

Hi Nel

I understand what you're saying, there is no need for a me that all of this is happening to. But unfortunately I can't feel it,

let's go step by step :

you have done exercises of looking at thoughts, at the body, at what is going on as direct experience :OK ,
you have seen that "you", "I", etc are concepts, thoughts.
you have seen that Nel is a thoughts story.

Now, you say that you are not feeling this "no me ness" so to speak. Now, describe what are you Feeling (sensations) ? how is it expressed through the body ?

I've tried and I want to discard this 'me' that's always lingering in the background.I know it has no substance and it's not real but nonetheless the thoughts remain in constant succession keeping 'me' in the picture.

There is no need to discard the thought "me" : it will continue to arise but you know for sure that it has no substance. Now, what is this "me" in the picture ? Elaborate on that.

Can a "me" see ? Can a "me" hear ? can a "me" think ?

thanks

Warissem

[nellie]

Hello,

Can a 'me' see, think, hear?
No, there's just seeing, thinking and hearing happening. But, as I write this, I'm still there, me in the background writing this. If I wasn't there, there would be Nothing, because there would be no self awareness. How can I possibly see this non- self awareness, awareness and describe it without feeling a 'me' in the background.
So, I do understand the concept and I'd even say I feel that I know it's true, I'm just having real difficulty not being drawn into there being a doer of everything as I go about my daily life.

Many thanks,

nel

[warissem]

Hi Nel

No, there's just seeing, thinking and hearing happening.

Yes, great.

But, as I write this, I'm still there, me in the background writing this.

In the beginning of this dialog, I said that our concern is DIRECT EXPERIENCE :seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations). Now, do you see an “I” writing ? What it needs to answer this : looking at what is going on (movement of fingers on the keyboard, looking at the screen, … ) : is there a you doing all this ?

If I wasn't there, there would be Nothing, because there would be no self awareness. How can I possibly see this non- self awareness, awareness and describe it without feeling a 'me' in the background.
So, I do understand the concept and I'd even say I feel that I know it's true, I'm just having real difficulty not being drawn into there being a doer of everything as I go about my daily life.

You are caught in a thought story here.
There is awareness (being aware) but there is no you doing it. The way we speak, we say “I am aware” but in the field there is no “I”, there is only being aware. The same thing with “I see”, there is only seeing. You cannot stop the seeing, the hearing or the thinking, do you ?

You need to make the difference between truth and belief. The goal of the dialog is to make you see that "I live as a separate self" is a belief not the truth. Don't believe what I say, SEE it. To see this truth, you have to be honest when you answer to my questions : it means that the answer has been SEEN as true for 100 % certainty. Example : when I ask : is there a tiger under your bed ? You look under the bed and SEE for sure that there is nothing there. That's the way we look and see, there is no help to go to the mind and operate with logic.

There is a question to look for during your daily activities, look with a focus, with a great will to understand, look with your five senses 24/7 :

Is there a separate self, a you doing things (breathing, eating, walking, washing, thinking, feeling, seeing, smelling, working, jogging, joking, laughing, crying, ...) ?

Best wishes

Warissem

[nellie]

Hello,

looking at what is going on (movement of fingers on the keyboard, looking at the screen, … ) : is there a you doing all this ?

No it’s just movement and I get it now, I’m confusing the awareness with a me. This is just a fiction. Awareness is the reality, me is not the truth.

I have been able to see, I feel it, there is no 'me' but only for a second or two and then a thought comes in saying, 'I feel it' and it's gone. The feeling seems to occur with the, thoughts happening' thought. It's like a 'free' moment albeit very short.

Is there a separate self, a you doing things (breathing, eating, walking, washing, thinking, feeling, seeing, smelling, working, jogging, joking, laughing, crying, .

I always struggle with the idea of not controlling things so I tried it and thought well if I have the thought take 3 deep breaths and then do it I am controlling my breathing but I realised that ‘l’ wasn’t doing anything. Breathing was happening, deep breathing, shallow breathing, it’s got nothing to do with ‘me’

Thanks

nel

[warissem]

Hi Nel

No it’s just movement and I get it now, I’m confusing the awareness with a me. This is just a fiction. Awareness is the reality, me is not the truth.

Yes, great observation.

I have been able to see, I feel it, there is no 'me' but only for a second or two and then a thought comes in saying, 'I feel it' and it's gone. The feeling seems to occur with the, thoughts happening' thought. It's like a 'free' moment albeit very short.

There is no you to see nor to feel, there is only seeing and feeling happening. Don't give faith to thoughts, what is here is still here.

I always struggle with the idea of not controlling things so I tried it and thought well if I have the thought take 3 deep breaths and then do it I am controlling my breathing but I realised that ‘l’ wasn’t doing anything. Breathing was happening, deep breathing, shallow breathing, it’s got nothing to do with ‘me

Good. The thought "take 3 deep breaths" has already appeared when it is known, you don't think thoughts : do you see this ?

Feel free to expose all other doubts about this stuff.

Kind regards

Warissem

[nellie]

Hello,

I’m certainly getting a little bit unstuck;)

I just had a few questions as these are the things that I’m stuck on.

What is the relationship between thought and action?
What is the relationship between thought and speech?
If there is a real urge to say something which 'I' know isn't the right thing to say. (for example it might create fear in someone). Can it be stopped from being said because this happened to me and I said it anyway.

Many thanks,

Nel

[warissem]

Good evening

What is the relationship between thought and action?
What is the relationship between thought and speech?

There is no concern what we are doing here. Anyway, there is question : who wants to know?

If there is a real urge to say something which 'I' know isn't the right thing to say. (for example it might create fear in someone). Can it be stopped from being said because this happened to me and I said it anyway.

Thoughts are happening, they don't need you to arise.
Speaking is happening without you.

What is this me for which things happen ?

Thanks

Warissem