Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

[Vivien]

Hi Erin,

V: Or more precisely, is there anything else to Erin other than a serious of thoughts ABOUT it?

E: This question gets a little tricky. Erin is a series of thoughts that can cause emotions to appear in the body. Meaning a sick feeling in the stomach or tension in the shoulders and clinching of jaw. Although, I can listen to an audiobook and get similar reactions to the character in the story. I am seeing it's no different. However, the story of Erin 'feels' more personal.
But personal for who? To the word ‘Erin’?

Look, there is nothing else to Erin than the word itself. Or is there doubt?

Yes, it’s true that emotions follow certain thoughts… but why? Because those thoughts are not seen to be just thoughts in those moments, but rather their contents (what they are about) are taken for real. Can you see that?

If/when any thought is not believed, it’s seen to be an appearing thought in that moment, happening on its own, then there is no emotion coming following it. That’s why most of the time there is no emotion following when watching a movie in the cinema. But even in a cinema emotions can come and when that happens in that moment the characters on the screen are not seen to be only as characters, but taken for real persons. So the movie is taken for real in those moments.

Whenever an emotion is present it is a warning sign that a thought is taken for real.

There are only thoughts about the character suffering. If "I" were to be listening to a novel on audiobook---Erin listens to the story intensely and imagines the character is real. She identifies with the character and goes through the emotions as the main character does.

But if Erin is really just a thought, just a word, just a sound heard as a word, then how could that sound/word/thought identify with anything?

For that to be true, it must be more than just a sound/word/thought, it must be a living entity that is aware and can do things. But is that so?

Look for the one that identifies. Where is that one?

Love,
Vivien

[plantborn]

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for pointing this out. When sitting with this in the last post, a lot of body sensations were coming up with the thoughts of Erin's audiobook. With your post, It was realized that Erin was being 'thought' about, not 'looked' at.

Look, there is nothing else to Erin than the word itself. Or is there doubt?

There is no Erin. Although there is a constant stream of thoughts about the character Erin that are often believed in, every time an Erin is looked for, she is no where to be found.

Because those thoughts are not seen to be just thoughts in those moments, but rather their contents (what they are about) are taken for real. Can you see that?

Yes seeing that clearly now. Thank you!

Whenever an emotion is present it is a warning sign that a thought is taken for real.

This is very helpful :)

But if Erin is really just a thought, just a word, just a sound heard as a word, then how could that sound/word/thought identify with anything?

For that to be true, it must be more than just a sound/word/thought, it must be a living entity that is aware and can do things. But is that so?

Look for the one that identifies. Where is that one?

A word can not be listening nor identify with anything. It is not a living entity and therefore impossible to suffer. It's the believed thoughts About the word/fictional character that can seemingly make sensations appear in the body. This is clear now.

Thank you!

Love,
Erin

[Vivien]

Hi Erin,

Thank you for your replies.

Now let’s look for the felt sense of Erin. Since it’s not just simply a thought, but a sensation being mistaken for a person.

What is the FELT sense of Erin?

Just notice, here and now, the feeling and sensations called Erin.
Just hold this feeling, be with it like it's some new phenomenon for which you have no name.

What do you discover about the feeling, as a feeling only?

Please look at this repeatedly many times throughout the day.

Along the same lines, look at these too:

How does it FEEL like to be me?
What kind of feeling is that?
What is the feeling of me?

What is the feeling of me thinking?
What is the feeling of me making decisions?
What is the feeling of me feeling sensations and emotions?

Focus on this feeling or sense of me, and get to know it as much as you can.

Vivien

[plantborn]

Hi Vivien!

Wanted to share this today--
Woke up with a deeper understanding, if understanding is the right word, about the 'human condition'. I have already experienced this, but it became more clear this morning. The believed thoughts, created a story line, for this body-mind. The thoughts are so believed in that a person was created out of thin air so to speak. Hahahahaha! Lot's of giggling today. Not like last time where there was sadness seeing there is no Erin. It's like looking at a gold fish in a bowl, naming that fish and telling a story about how it wants to grow big, wants a bigger bowl, and eventually to be free living in a pond, and have a family. It's all made up! We created the longing, the suffering, and the idea that what is here isn't enough. Hahahaha

What is the FELT sense of Erin?

Normally, I would have said pain in jaw (from constant clinching). Sick feeling in stomach area at times. Pressure in chest.
At the moment, Erin is just body sensations that will usually line up with a thought process.

What do you discover about the feeling, as a feeling only?

It's just sensations in the body.

How does it FEEL like to be me?
What kind of feeling is that?
What is the feeling of me?

There is often physical pain in the body. Aches in the shoulders, neck, lower back, and the jaw experienced daily.
It is an uncomfortable displeasing feeling.
There is no me. I have no sense of a me anymore.

What is the feeling of me thinking?
What is the feeling of me making decisions?
What is the feeling of me feeling sensations and emotions?

There is no me thinking. Only thoughts popping in and out of existence, that may produce a sensation in the body.
There is no me to make a decision. Only thoughts and reactions to the thought.
There are pleasant sensations and displeasing sensations. Emotions are thought linked with a sensation in the body. There is no me to experience this. It's just happening.

There is nothing to Erin at all. Erin is a belief in an unfortunate misunderstanding. How ridiculous. Still laughing...

Truly grateful for your guidance.

Love,
Erin

[Vivien]

Hi Erin,

The thoughts are so believed in that a person was created out of thin air so to speak. Hahahahaha! Lot's of giggling today. Not like last time where there was sadness seeing there is no Erin. It's like looking at a gold fish in a bowl, naming that fish and telling a story about how it wants to grow big, wants a bigger bowl, and eventually to be free living in a pond, and have a family. It's all made up! We created the longing, the suffering, and the idea that what is here isn't enough

Yes :) If there is a sadness with the seeing, then that seeing is being interpreted thought the notion of me. What does this mean about me :) hence the sadness.

Normally, I would have said pain in jaw (from constant clinching). Sick feeling in stomach area at times. Pressure in chest.
At the moment, Erin is just body sensations that will usually line up with a thought process.

This is important. These sensations have been mistaken for something else that it is not. They are just plain sensations, and yet, thought weaved a story that they are not just sensations, but a living entity, a person with its wills, desires, likes, dislikes, whom life is happening to, and thus suffers the consequence.

This needs to be seen again and again that these are just sensations and not an entity, an agency. These sensations are just as much not a me than the sound of rain, or wind. Just another phenomena happening.

Is there anything that isn’t happening automatically, but controlled? Anything at all?

What else would you like to look at? Is there anything that is not clear?

Vivien

[plantborn]

Hi Vivien,

This needs to be seen again and again that these are just sensations and not an entity, an agency. These sensations are just as much not a me than the sound of rain, or wind. Just another phenomena happening.

Been doing this over and over. It causes a chuckle or smile every time a thought triggers a body sensation, then a perceived emotion. Then sometimes a narrative will start. But it's seen for what it really is now.

Is there anything that isn’t happening automatically, but controlled? Anything at all?

Every thing is on automatic. No one or thing is controlling it. There are no decisions, choices, or free will. Every thing is just happening.

What else would you like to look at? Is there anything that is not clear?

I still have a few questions just for curiosity.

1. Is there time? The vessel gets older, trees grow, etc. It appears to be happening over a span of time. But it's often said time doesn't exist. Don't fully understand this. Also on this same notion, is there a past and future? And if not, what are memories? I would say memories are again thoughts. However, for example, I remember having my appendix removed at 15 years old and there is a scar where the surgery was. Did this not happen in the past?

2. I have heard some awakened 'people' say that we are not really here. This is confusing. There are no persons walking around, just body-mind with thoughts and sensations. I see that. But there is a body here that is sensing. A tree that can be touched, a flower that is smelled, etc. What is meant by we are not really here?

3. Is there a difference between brain and mind in non-dualism? Or are these words interchangeable?

Greatly appreciate you.

Erin

[Vivien]

Hi Erin,

Sorry for the late reply.

Is there time? The vessel gets older, trees grow, etc.

OK, let’s look into the notion of time.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about the past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Now let’s look at the specifics:

Right now as you sit here, HOW do you know that the body was younger before?

In what form this information arrives?

Other than thoughts and mental images suggesting so, is there any direct evidence of it?

Even with the scar, is there anything here other than a thought suggesting that it is the result of a surgery that happened in the past?

Please spend a lot of time with EACH question… Look very carefully… Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Vivien

[plantborn]

Hi Vivien

I am going to sit with this a bit longer. I have been working a lot these past days and I want to give this more time.

I will write tomorrow after work.

Be in touch tomorrow.

Thank you
Erin

[Vivien]

That's all right. thank you for letting me know :)

[plantborn]

Hi Vivien,

Wow, this is "mind" blowing.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Memory is made of thoughts sometimes with images.
A memory appears either spontaneously or it can come after a thought that may relate to the memory/thought.
When looking at both, there is no difference.
There isn't an exact way to know if it refers to something that has happened.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Future thoughts are made up of the same thoughts as all thoughts.
It appears spontaneously or may be related to a similar thought prior to it.
There is no difference between general and future thoughts. They are all still just thoughts.
There is no way to know that a future thought will happen exactly as it refers to.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about the past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

There is no difference between future thoughts or past thoughts.
They are both just thoughts.

Right now as you sit here, HOW do you know that the body was younger before?

In what form this information arrives?

Other than thoughts and mental images suggesting so, is there any direct evidence of it?

Even with the scar, is there anything here other than a thought suggesting that it is the result of a surgery that happened in the past?

With just looking right now, I can not know or prove that my body was younger.
The information comes from visually looking at the body right now.
No, there isn't any direct evidence of being younger.
With just looking, it can not be proved that the scar was from a surgery.

Thank you
Erin

[Vivien]

Hi Erin,

You did a nice looking.

Let’s investigate what time really is.

What is time (in this very moment)?
How is time experienced?

What is past and future?
How past or future is experienced?

Does the past or future ‘exists’ other than the contents of thoughts?

Is there proof that you had dinner last night?

Is there any experiential proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

Vivien

[plantborn]

Hi Vivien,

What is time (in this very moment)?
How is time experienced?

Time is a concept.
Time can not be sensed.

What is past and future?
How is past or future experienced?

Past and future are thoughts.
It can not be experienced.

Does the past or future ‘exist’ other than the contents of thoughts?

Is there proof that you had dinner last night?

Is there any experiential proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

No. The past and future exist only in thoughts.
There is no Proof I had dinner last night.
When looking using only sensations, I can not prove the past ever happened.

Wow! Ok, I can see that time is a believed created concept and does not actually exist, but as far as functioning in the here and now, is "time" just a tool used to keep schedules and appointments? For example with work clients, an appointment is scheduled for a certain time of day and for a certain length of time (eg.Monday at 2pm for 60mins). So is time a useful TOOL that can be utilized, but doesn't truly exist?


Thank you
Erin

[Vivien]

Hi Erin,

Wow! Ok, I can see that time is a believed created concept and does not actually exist, but as far as functioning in the here and now, is "time" just a tool used to keep schedules and appointments? For example with work clients, an appointment is scheduled for a certain time of day and for a certain length of time (eg.Monday at 2pm for 60mins). So is time a useful TOOL that can be utilized, but doesn't truly exist?

Yes, it is a useful tool / concept. I wouldn’t say that time doesn’t exist, rather it doesn’t exist in a way we think it does. It clearly exists and a concept, an idea. So concepts exist in the mentally created ‘virtual reality’. But beside being concept (a mental abstraction trying to explain change), there is nothing there. But this doesn't negate the usefulness of it as a concept.

The general assumption that there is a linear time that started somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But what is the experience of the now moving along the line of time?
How fast the present moment is actually moving?

How long does the now last?
Where does it start and where does it end?
When does the now exactly become the past?
What is the past in the actual experience?

How is it known that the now is moving? Or that it lasts?
How is it known exactly that there is such a thing as 'now'?
What is the actual experience of 'now' or 'the present moment'?

Let’s investigate another frequently assumed possibility.
Maybe, instead of being 'one single now' moving forward on the line of time, there are infinite number of now-s following each other in a line, like pearls on a necklace.

...now now now now now now now now now now now now now....

Is there a gap between each now-s, like the knots between the pearls?
If yes, how the jump/leap is made from one now to the other?
What is doing the jump?
What is the gap made of? What is in the gap?
How long each now lasts?

Or the now-s are glued tightly together to make the transition between them easier? :)

And what makes the now-s to keep them in place in a tidy line and stop them from spreading to all directions? An invisible (unknown) thread?

Please look carefully with each question.

So how the now itself is experienced?
Is a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought? Imagination?

How do you know that there is only now? I mean, what does the word ‘now’ point to in experience?
Can now as such be experienced at all? Or is this just another concept mistaken to be something real, something that actually exists?

Vivien

[plantborn]

Hi Vivien,

But what is the experience of the now moving along the line of time?
How fast is the present moment actually moving?

There is no sensed experience moving along the line of time.
Great question. There's no way to know this.

How long does the now last?
Where does it start and where does it end?
When does the now exactly become the past?
What is the past in the actual experience?

There is no way to actually know this.
There is no determinable start or finish of now.
Never. I would say there is only now, then whatever is seen as the past is a thought.
The Past is a thought and can not be experienced with the senses.

How is it known that the now is moving? Or that it lasts?
How is it known exactly that there is such a thing as 'now'?
What is the actual experience of 'now' or 'the present moment'?

I would say that it can't be known through experience.
I can see how "now" can possibly be a concept as well.
Actual experience of the present moment/now to me is what is currently being sensed...seeing, talking, hearing, etc

Is there a gap between each now-s, like the knots between the pearls?
If yes, how the jump/leap is made from one now to the other?
What is doing the jump?
What is the gap made of? What is in the gap?
How long each now lasts?

Or the now-s are glued tightly together to make the transition between them easier? :)

And what makes the now-s to keep them in place in a tidy line and stop them from spreading to all directions? An invisible (unknown) thread?

To sum these questions up, the feeling is it is always now. No gaps, no movement on a line, no threads holding them together.

So how is the now itself experienced?
Is it a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought? Imagination?

How do you know that there is only now? I mean, what does the word ‘now’ point to in experience?
Can now as such be experienced at all? Or is this just another concept mistaken to be something real, something that actually exists?

At first, I was thinking that it is what I am currently experiencing with the senses... seeing my dog, hearing the TV, etc, But where does now start and finish like you mentioned earlier. "Now" is a concept, the same as time.

Thank you,

Erin

[Vivien]

Hi Erin,

Nice inquiry.

Just notice, the word now is usually a label on what is happening through the senses (without a need for thoughts), what is actual, and not just conceptual.
And past and future are label on concepts only, what only ever appear in thoughts.
Can you see that?

Now let’s back to one of your previous questions:

3. Is there a difference between brain and mind in non-dualism? Or are these words interchangeable?

Well, what is your experience of a mind?

Is mind a place where thoughts appear IN?
Or created BY?

Is mind an actuality or it is just a concept?

Is there a mind independent of thoughts?

Is there anything to a mind than the current thought?

Or mind is just another label/name on thoughts?

Vivien