Looking to find a self

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

Given what you've found , is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Can I ask, what is the thought “I”?

Harry

[JonathanR]

Harry,

Yes, of course. I was abbreviating somewhat.

The thought "I" is simply any reference to "I" or "me" that appears as a thought. It doesn't have to be the thought word "I". For example it could be some kind of image of "you". It could be thoughts in which there is a supposition or assumption of a "you". In other words any reference within thought to the idea of an entity "Harry".

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

Thank you for that clarification. I have looked into it.

The thought "I" is simply any reference to "I" or "me" that appears as a thought. It doesn't have to be the thought word "I". For example it could be some kind of image of "you". It could be thoughts in which there is a supposition or assumption of a "you". In other words any reference within thought to the idea of an entity "Harry".

It’s not possible to stop the “I” thought.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

What if the "I" is actually just the thought, just the assumption?

Thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing, they just do. And quite a few of those thoughts refer to an entity. But where is that one actually?

Of course there is an idea of an entity and that idea does appear.

But is that "you" making the idea appear?

Is that "you" that this idea refers to?


All best

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

What if the "I" is actually just the thought, just the assumption?

I can see this but I have some questions.

“I” is a thought popping in and out.

Thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing, they just do. And quite a few of those thoughts refer to an entity. But where is that one actually?

But what about the moving the body? Is that not an ‘I’? Looking at this screen and typing.

But is that "you" making the idea appear?

Is that "you" that this idea refers to?

The idea of “I” appears randomly and spontaneously.

And I’m not sure who the ‘me’ is that thoughts refer to.

But who is the one who notices all this and see it? Who is the one looking at the body?

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. I can see this but I have some questions

Ok.

. what about the moving the body? Is that not an ‘I’? Looking at this screen and typing.

No. "I" is assumed. If you look at the immediate experience of seeing screen and typing, those are actually happening, whilst "I look and type" is the belief (thought) that an ",I" is "doing" these things.
It is not necessary to believe that seeing screen and typing are happening, because they are (or were).

. And I’m not sure who the ‘me’ is that thoughts refer to.

Is that because you keep looking for one?

. But who is the one who notices all this and see it? Who is the one looking at the body?

This isn't my question to answer.

Asking "Who" can be circular because it already assumes a "someone".

You could try asking "What"?

"What sees"?

All best

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

I’ve been looking and pondering your pointings.

No. "I" is assumed. If you look at the immediate experience of seeing screen and typing, those are actually happening, whilst "I look and type" is the belief (thought) that an ",I" is "doing" these things.
It is not necessary to believe that seeing screen and typing are happening, because they are (or were).

I see what you mean. Typing and looking seem to happen. “I” and the sense of a “me” jumps in to take credit for them.

But I still don’t feel like I’ve quite seen through it though.

Is that because you keep looking for one?

That is right I have been looking for something, ‘myself.’

This isn't my question to answer.

Asking "Who" can be circular because it already assumes a "someone".

You could try asking "What"?

"What sees"?

I don’t have the answer. Concepts seem to rush in from the mind to answer but I still don’t know what I am.

Hmmmm I still feel I only understand no self from a logical perspective.

Cheers,
Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. I see what you mean. Typing and looking seem to happen. “I” and the sense of a “me” jumps in to take credit for them.

That's right. Do you notice that this is thoughts that turn up? Almost like narration or announcements , asserting the idea that "I type" , "I look" ?

But the actual typing and looking do seem to simply happen. Is it clear that thoughts are something extra , not the same thing as the typing or looking but a commentary that is added on?

. But I still don’t feel like I’ve quite seen through it though

That's ok. We have some more investigation to do. That's all.

. I don’t have the answer. Concepts seem to rush in from the mind to answer but I still don’t know what I am.

Hmmmm I still feel I only understand no self from a logical perspective.

Notice that I asked "what sees"? "What types"?

I did not ask you to know what you are. I probably wouldn't have asked that question exactly because inherent within it is an idea that "you must be this or that, or you must be something".

Actually, is there a "you", separate from the immediate experience of living?

But look again at what sees?. Look again at what types?

Not "who" sees or "who types". If you go looking for a "who" the mind will be preoccupied with the attempt to find a self and not finding one (but assuming that there must be one) may go on like that ad nauseam.

All the best

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

Apologies for the delay. We have had a bit of a crisis at work for the last few days. But I have been looking throughout the day as best I can.

That's right. Do you notice that this is thoughts that turn up? Almost like narration or announcements , asserting the idea that "I type" , "I look" ?

But the actual typing and looking do seem to simply happen. Is it clear that thoughts are something extra , not the same thing as the typing or looking but a commentary that is added on?

Yes I notice thoughts and feelings coming in as an overlay to assert that an “I” does these things, rather than them actually just happening so to speak.

There is an idea also of a future “me” doing things in the future that also arises. It’s less narrating the now and more planning what’s going to happen.

There is also a past “me” which gets lots in past experiences and memories. Assuming there is someone responsibility for what happened back then.

Notice that I asked "what sees"? "What types"?

I did not ask you to know what you are. I probably wouldn't have asked that question exactly because inherent within it is an idea that "you must be this or that, or you must be something".

Actually, is there a "you", separate from the immediate experience of living?

But look again at what sees?. Look again at what types?

Not "who" sees or "who types". If you go looking for a "who" the mind will be preoccupied with the attempt to find a self and not finding one (but assuming that there must be one) may go on like that ad nauseam

I understand what you are saying. The mind says there is a “me” or “something” looking. But when you look out the eyes, there appears to be only this seeing happening. Nothing seperate to that. But it’s more than seeing. It’s eating, walking, any kind of doing. There is the assumption of a me doing them.

Harry

[Harry1]

Sorry I should say there is seeing happening and arising with that is a strong belief, assumption and feeling of a self that also arises.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

Thanks for your posts.

. Apologies for the delay. We have had a bit of a crisis at work for the last few days. But I have been looking throughout the day as best I can.

No need to apologise Harry. Life happens :-)

. I should say there is seeing happening and arising with that is a strong belief, assumption and feeling of a self that also arises.

Yes. As your inquiry goes on it may begin to be noticed that the very 'strength' of this belief/ assumption and feeling of a self is also apparent and illusory.... Seeming to be 'strong' because it seems to be s real thing, force, entity because the unexamined, unquestioned narrative says so.

Batman or Superman appear strong whilst there is immersion in the story about them. Actually they amount to ideas, printed pictures.

. Yes I notice thoughts and feelings coming in as an overlay to assert that an “I” does these things, rather than them actually just happening so to speak.

Excellent.

. There is an idea also of a future “me” doing things in the future that also arises. It’s less narrating the now and more planning what’s going to happen.

There is also a past “me” which gets lots in past experiences and memories. Assuming there is someone responsibility for what happened back then.

Absolutely. There seems / appears to be to be a continuous, unchanging entity that moves through 'time' from a past to a future.

To investigate this immediately look at what really happens. At any given moment is there any other reality than what's happening right here and now?

Does "past," or "future" ever happen right now? Do they exist somewhere ?


All best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

LU is holding a couple of Zoom meetings online this weekend. These are happening once a month at the moment.

People likely to attend will be LU guides, who will lead and those who are currently investigating 'self' . The last two of these were very friendly affairs. There's no set agenda.. It's just an opportunity to meet, voice questions and explore no self together. You're invited (but of course there's no obligation).

The dates and times are : Saturday 19th Feb 6 pm-8 pm GMT,
Sunday, 20th Feb 10 am-12 am GMT

Here is a link to join
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853?pw ... BoUUNwUT09

Meeting ID: 371 892 9853
Passcode: HmbSF4\

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathon,

Absolutely. There seems / appears to be to be a continuous, unchanging entity that moves through 'time' from a past to a future.

To investigate this immediately look at what really happens. At any given moment is there any other reality than what's happening right here and now?

Does "past," or "future" ever happen right now? Do they exist somewhere ?

There is only what is happening right now. Thoughts appear in the now which make the illusion there is a past and a future. But they are not true or real. What is happening now is real.

Past and future only seem to exist in thoughts. Which are not accurate rememberings or projections.

Thanks for inviting me to the zoom. Unfortunately I can’t make either times. They are difficult for me as I’m on Australian Eastern Daylight Time.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

.

Yes I notice thoughts and feelings coming in as an overlay to assert that an “I” does these things, rather than them actually just happening so to speak

.

Is it "you" that notices?

Thoughts and feelings come in as an overlay and are noticed. What is it that notices?

Jon

[Harry1]

#

Is it "you" that notices?

Thoughts and feelings come in as an overlay and are noticed. What is it that notices?

I’m not sure I’m getting this one.

There feels like there is a space between ‘me’ (first person perspective) and my thoughts and feelings.

Harry