Seeing no-self

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo, and Happy New Year :)

In the same way
Notice what is every day life looks like - dressing, drinking coffee, reading... is there an I in this what happens?

No I whatsoever :)

It's noticed that night dreams are becoming much more lucid than before and they are remembered in great detail; the dreaming is recognized sometimes instantly and sometimes later during the dream. The plot lines are somewhat more extreme than previously with graphic scenes. I don't know if this makes sense, but recognition of the dream happens in a very specific way: the dream characters are seen as mechanical, as dolls/mannequins acting like robots, or wax figures that slowly start to melt/dissolve.

Love,
ivan

[Lubo]

Happy New Year , Ivan :)
Wonderful.
Now find the dreamer?
The centre which recognise dream?
This one to whom dream happens?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Now find the dreamer?
The centre which recognise dream?
This one to whom dream happens?

There is no dreamer, no centre, it only exists as a concept. There is only the 'dream', in the same way as there is only 'blackness' with eyes closed and 'what can be seen' with eyes open in the waking state.

Love,
ivan

[Lubo]

Wow, Ivan,
Excellent!
Yes, there is no centre.
Tell me more. What happened? Describe the exact moment?
What is to find this?
How this impact everyday life?
What about the problems?
Emotions?

Much Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Tell me more. What happened? Describe the exact moment?
What is to find this?
How this impact everyday life?
What about the problems?
Emotions?

I would be lying if I said there were any changes in the experience of everyday life. It is pretty easy to write 'learned' responses here having read so much about awareness, no-self, non-doership, etc. There are constant negative thoughts that this is not it, that non-doership is yet another illusion. Sometimes it seems that I am quite literally pretending that there is no doer and that everything is happening automatically, and I am wondering if everyone else at this stage in the journey is doing the same. Thoughts arise again that this is another way of abrogating responsibility and facing important issues in life.

Yes, it's recognized that there is no centre, that there is no entity experencing any of this, but the experience remains unchanged. I always return to this simple understanding, that 'I' cannot be found anywhere, it's not actual, it's a thought. But it seems certainty is still lacking. Can this certainty be caused in any way or does certainty come 'by grace'.

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,
I understand what are you writing about. Thanks for the honesty

Yes, it's recognized that there is no centre, that there is no entity experencing any of this, but the experience remains unchanged. I always return to this simple understanding, that 'I' cannot be found anywhere, it's not actual, it's a thought. But it seems certainty is still lacking. Can this certainty be caused in any way or does certainty come 'by grace'.

Seeing no self is easy yes, just look around, look at the body, "in" the body and if there is no self found then the answer is obvious.
Check now - is there a self anywhere? Does the body is a self? Does the body is the container for the self?

You are right, seeing no self is not enough. Now notice if there is no self What is here?
What is this?
certainty -Notice Is there someone who order this? Who chooses what to appear?
Is there a real past and future? What they are made of?
Expectation - is there an expectation that something will change? There will be no bills to pay anymore, or health issues or...what ?

Thoughts arise again that this is another way of abrogating responsibility and facing important issues in life.

Yes, in the story that someone live life there is responsibility, but in reality there is This happening or there is someone who live in This?
Notice also is there understanding that thoughts are separate from what is happening and they are like a policeman in a dangerous house - or understanding is that the thoughts are at home, Is this their home?


Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Sorry for the delay. I still continue looking every day and repeating some of the exercises, but there is still no shift in experience.

Seeing no self is easy yes, just look around, look at the body, "in" the body and if there is no self found then the answer is obvious.
Check now - is there a self anywhere? Does the body is a self? Does the body is the container for the self?

Yes, 'self' is imagined -- The body is not the self, and it's not the container for the self.

Notice Is there someone who order this? Who chooses what to appear?

No controller/coordinator of any kind is found when looking.

Is there a real past and future? What they are made of?

They only seem to exist in the form of thoughts and ideas about the past and the future, and they are always happening now.

Expectation - is there an expectation that something will change? There will be no bills to pay anymore, or health issues or...what ?

There are no expectations of this kind related to bills, health, etc. Maybe, based on reading, there are some hidden expectations of 'becoming awareness', or 'dissolving into something greater'.

Yes, in the story that someone live life there is responsibility, but in reality there is This happening or there is someone who live in This?
Notice also is there understanding that thoughts are separate from what is happening and they are like a policeman in a dangerous house - or understanding is that the thoughts are at home, Is this their home?

Only this happening without anyone living in this.
I don't think this is their home, they seem to limit/distort what is.

Love,
Ivan

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,

Yes, 'self' is imagined -- The body is not the self, and it's not the container for the self.

Wonderful

I don't think this is their home, they seem to limit/distort what is.

Whose are the thoughts?
Please write somewhere 10 random thoughts. Do it literally.
And notice:
Is there an you who knows what thought will come before it came?

is there an you who make thoughts? What this me make precisely to produce thoughts?
is there an you to whom thoughts are coming or me is a thought also?

there are some hidden expectations of 'becoming awareness', or 'dissolving into something greater'.

Nice that this is seen. There is this "something greater" already. You is imagination.
Seeing is not intellectual understanding, is life happening or are you happening?

love,
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Whose are the thoughts?

No owner of the thoughts is found in actuality, it only exists as a concept.

Please write somewhere 10 random thoughts. Do it literally.
And notice:
Is there an you who knows what thought will come before it came?

Thoughts were completely random, coming from nowhere; there is definitely no 'me', no 'thinker' thinking/choosing the thoughts. A thought 'I am thinking the thoughts' arises, but 'I' is just another thought. The fictional 'I' also appears again and claims to know what the next thought is going to be, but again it's a thought, it's thoughts all the way down. No real 'me' who can guess the next thought.

is there an you who make thoughts? What this me make precisely to produce thoughts?
is there an you to whom thoughts are coming or me is a thought also?

No one is creating the thoughts, they just occur by themselves. Whatever appears as a potential candidate is seen to be a concept. No 'me' to whom thoughts are coming.

You asked me previously if this is their home -- with eyes closed I tried observing the thoughts as they arose, and they exist within the same field as sounds and bodily sensations, it's all a part of the same movement.

love,
ivan

[Lubo]

Wow wonderful, Ivan.
Yes there is no thinker

it's thoughts all the way down.

This make me smile :) Yes

You asked me previously if this is their home -- with eyes closed I tried observing the thoughts as they arose, and they exist within the same field as sounds and bodily sensations, it's all a part of the same movement.

Yes, thoughts are coming like a commentator for what appear, and it is easy to notice what is real ? And there is no one to whom thoughts says that something must be different or that this is happens to me?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Yes, thoughts are coming like a commentator for what appear, and it is easy to notice what is real ? And there is no one to whom thoughts says that something must be different or that this is happens to me?

Yes, thoughts are commenting on all events in life, occurring during conversations etc. It is like a separate movement parallel to what is happening. And many times thoughts and various interpretations and conclusions are taken to be true, and perhaps we even recall 'our' thoughts and interpretations when remembering a certain situation, rather than what actually happened.

So, the dream is fueled by constant thoughts and emotions. By there is no 'me' inside producing them. So, it is the other way around -- by some mechanism, the thoughts and emotions are creating the story and imaginary 'me' inside at the centre of the story.

[Lubo]

:)
Yesss!!!

So, it is the other way around -- by some mechanism, the thoughts and emotions are creating the story and imaginary 'me' inside at the centre of the story.

Excellent!
Is there centre in any shape or form?
Is there someone who is born here or something that is separate?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

I hope you are doing fine.
I am sorry for being away for so long, life had other plans. I had a period of great emotional release and solitude, and I am ready to continue the conversation if you are still willing to guide me.

To summarize my experience, I have a very good intellectual understanding of no-self, but there is no direct experience. I realized that “I” is just a fictional character -- I was obsessed with a particular spiritual book and soon found myself in an environment where I started to meet people with characters corresponding to the ones in the book, including the whole setting and various details. Since all of these are obviously dream characters, then my character must be fictional as well. This did no lead to any direct experience. I still do not understand what 'here and now' or 'I AM' point to.

Sometimes there are periods where it seems that my mind contains multiplicity, various characters/personalities through which I am observing the world. Sometimes they can be heard narrating and commenting on my life.

I have done a lot of practical exercices, it is evident that the voice inside my head (what I considered to be 'me') has absolutely no control over my actions. It tries to take credit for everything but it actually has no control whatsoever.

Looking forward to continuing the discussion,

Ivan

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan ,
Welcome back :)

and I am ready to continue the conversation if you are still willing to guide me.

Yes, sure.

I still do not understand what 'here and now' or 'I AM' point to.

Notice right now what is this around?
Notice do the objects are separate from the colour? Does the body is separate from the colour?

Is there separate individual objects that are floating in nothingness and they meet each other by incident?
Or there is This, Wholeness. Oneness?
Do the thoughts are separate from the Wholeness?
I does not exist but not that I do not exist.
You are the whole, the thoughts are yours, and you can imagine whatever you want, even though you are a separate self.
Sensations are wholeness or they are separate? Notice is there anything that is not wholeness? Is there separation at all? Separation from what?
Can you point one border that makes separation?

Much Love
Lubo