No me

[NikkiePhil21]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The way I understand no self is there is no “I” or subject in experience. There’s just life nikkie-ing, for example. There’s no actor. And the actor is not viewing an object. There’s just seeing. The body and mind are a conditioned mechanism and that’s what’s playing out, spontaneously, by itself, without a separate doer, assumed to have free will.

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation. To look and see there is no self, and for even the looking to eventually fall away, or, I guess, the effort of noticing there is no one - for this to drop. I’m interested in facing what prevents “me” from being a complete let go. I would like to trust my guide — that my guide is Realized.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect for them to ask questions to help point me to look at what is true or untrue. I expect they do what they need to poke holes in my stories, unreasonable expectations, false identities and misperceptions. I expect they don’t really have an agenda but to do what was done to them.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
12 step process of recovery for the past 14 years - investigating things like assumptions, old ideas and limiting beliefs, and assumed false identities. I’m still active in guiding people in that process but haven’t physically done any work as I’ve seen it’s limitation. I started with TM as mediation. I did some Byron Katie stuff. About 5 years ago I was initiated into shambhavi maha mudra, a Kriya yoga practice - was really disciplined in that process and other processes with Sadhguru. Ive read a bunch of spiritual books from the Christian mystic diaries to Eckhart tolle stuff and adyashanti books. A bunch of satsang with sadhguru, and mooji Gangaji ady. Recently I’ve been saturated in Jim Newman. My Kriya practice has dropped.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

Luchana is here:-)

As we spoke - let's start the investigation and continuing with video meetings as well.

So tell me, looking directly at experience:

How do you know that there is a self?

How is the self experienced?

Is there something REAL which you can point?


Take your time and reply each question separately.

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Nikkie,

Luchana is here:-)

As we spoke - let's start the investigation and continuing with video meetings as well.

So tell me, looking directly at experience:

How do you know that there is a self?

Okay, hi, Luchana! Thanks for today. If I’m understanding correctly, I’m to post every day. So I’ll answer what I found for today. I don’t know there is a self. When I look I don’t find anyone - a separate nikkie character. I looked inside my body, at everything around, and no where could I find a self.


How is the self experienced?

There is not a a self experiencing anything. There is just thoughts emotions seeing sensations. For instance, when my child is nursing on my body and I ask how is the self experienced, there’s no self - just sensations.

Is there something REAL which you can point?


I can point to real through sensations - sights sounds tastes sensations. There is hearing the child, responding to the child, hearing my voice, then a thought that comes I said that then a notching that that’s just a thought. There’s kissing a baby. The eyes of the child. There is preparing a meal, eating a meal. I’m not sure I’m getting this or if it’s an assumption that it’s real but this all feels very real.

Take your time and reply each question separately.

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Luchana!

How do you know that there is a self?

Okay, hi, Luchana! Thanks for today. If I’m understanding correctly, I’m to post every day. So I’ll answer what I found for today. I don’t know there is a self. When I look I don’t find anyone - a separate nikkie character. I looked inside my body, at everything around, and no where could I find a self.


How is the self experienced?

There is not a a self experiencing anything. There is just thoughts emotions seeing sensations. For instance, when my child is nursing on my body and I ask how is the self experienced, there’s no self - just sensations.

Is there something REAL which you can point?


I can point to real through sensations - sights sounds tastes sensations. There is hearing the child, responding to the child, hearing my voice, then a thought that comes I said that then a notching that that’s just a thought. There’s kissing a baby. The eyes of the child. There is preparing a meal, eating a meal. I’m not sure I’m getting this or if it’s an assumption that it’s real but this all feels very real.

Love, nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

If I’m understanding correctly, I’m to post every day. So I’ll answer what I found for today.

Yes, exactly. I'm going to give you questions and exercises and you have to look and reply how it is in experience. That's all :-)

There is not a a self experiencing anything. There is just thoughts emotions seeing sensations. For instance, when my child is nursing on my body and I ask how is the self experienced, there’s no self - just sensations.

Nice. Let's sink into thought process and see how thoughts are happening in experience. Later on we will look into sensations.

Sit quietly and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all. Observe thoughts, inquire and answer the following questions:


Where are they coming from and going to?

Can you predict your next thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

Can you select any specail thought, a pleasant one?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thought?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?


Let me know what you find.

Watch like a cat which is hunting a mouse:-)
And reply each question one by one.
Don't rush to reply immediatly. Take your time during the day.

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Luchana,

Thanks for the meeting today!

Where are they coming from and going to?

At first I was struggling to figure out what to do. But then I just realized that thoughts were happening doubting, resisting, judging. So then I noticed just appear and dissolve. Each new thought might be commenting on the last or it will think about a noise that was heard or the sun coming through the window. So it’s kind of commenting and labeling.

Can you predict your next thought?

No lol so obvious. They are very spontaneous. Although, certain situations may evoke similar thoughts, but each time the thought maybe be different as well. For instance, when the child asks for a cookie, sometimes there’s no thought response just doing it. Sometimes the thought is “oh god again.” Thoughts are so free to come and go. I found this exercise to be very peaceful.


Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. If I tell myself don’t think, many thoughts follow that. If I try to prevent a specific thought to not arise, like “don’t think about how the tv sound is bothering you”, then I think about that immediately. Upon just looking again, thoughts just appear.

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

They’re so fast. Kind of arise and dissipate so fast to stop them. Once they come they go. Where would the middle be? Can’t find a middle.

Can you select any specail thought, a pleasant one?

There’s a pleasantness from simply looking. I can focus on the sensation. I can kind do repeat feel feel feel, soften. This is a learned practice, a kind of a conditioned thought pattern to find pleasure in the body. The practice just spontaneously arose. But I had to pull the body into it. Hmmm a pleasant thought…I can think this chair is cozy but still I’m bringing the body into it, the thought alone isn’t really pleasant. I can say I like the sun when I’m looking at it. It was empty at first until accompanied by memories of sunshine and that gave it fuel to feel good.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thought?


No. As I was doing the previous practice my son was making noise that could have awakened the baby, and I immediately thought he’s going to wake her and that made me mad. If I think don’t have a “bad” thought,

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

When I say I’m going to pick a thought , that’s just an “I” thought. It’s a thought followed by another thought. As soon as I try to grab an appearing thought the next one arises. Or better stated, a thought appears, and an I thought appears and another thought appears.

Love, nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

you did a good looking.

Let's look closer

At first I was struggling to figure out what to do. But then I just realized that thoughts were happening doubting, resisting, judging. So then I noticed just appear and dissolve. Each new thought might be commenting on the last or it will think about a noise that was heard or the sun coming through the window. So it’s kind of commenting and labeling.

Yes, this is what they do, bu where are they coming from and going to?
Can a place or a spot be located?
If yes - describe it's precise location.

There’s a pleasantness from simply looking. I can focus on the sensation. I can kind do repeat feel feel feel, soften. This is a learned practice, a kind of a conditioned thought pattern to find pleasure in the body. The practice just spontaneously arose. But I had to pull the body into it. Hmmm a pleasant thought…I can think this chair is cozy but still I’m bringing the body into it, the thought alone isn’t really pleasant. I can say I like the sun when I’m looking at it. It was empty at first until accompanied by memories of sunshine and that gave it fuel to feel good.

Nice
Can you select to have ONLY pleasant thoughts and no any other thougths?

When I say I’m going to pick a thought , that’s just an “I” thought. It’s a thought followed by another thought. As soon as I try to grab an appearing thought the next one arises. Or better stated, a thought appears, and an I thought appears and another thought appears.

Oh, very good that you can see this,
Let's dig here:-)

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Take you time and let me know what you find.


Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Luchana,


Yes, this is what they do, bu where are they coming from and going to?
Can a place or a spot be located?
If yes - describe it's precise location.


I can’t find a place that they are co
I feel from and going to. No location. Not in the body, not in the mind, can’t find a mind. Just coming and going from nowhere or no place that can be found.

Can you select to have ONLY pleasant thoughts and no any other thougths?


No. I can’t select ONLY pleasant thoughts. If I’m trying to hang unto a pleasant thought it creates tension in the body and life interrupts with distraction or a new thought!



Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Take you time and let me know what you find.

I did the exercise the self tallies have more marks. More thoughts arose about the body mind thought sensation than it did about “other outside” influences, like noises, or appearances or colors or shapes in the room.


Much love,
Nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

Not in the body, not in the mind, can’t find a mind. Just coming and going from nowhere or no place that can be found.

Nice :-)
Is there such thing as mind at all?

Look now in this very moment for the mind.

Where is it? What is it?

I did the exercise the self tallies have more marks. More thoughts arose about the body mind thought sensation than it did about “other outside” influences, like noises, or appearances or colors or shapes in the room.

Good observation.
Let's look closer these seemingly "other" thoughts. When we look closer we see that even they are also related to the self, to me. Just i a hidden way.

A thought about a body-mind - I am the one with the body-mind, this body/mind whatever is mine..
A thought about a noise ( "noise" is a judgment comming from a thought, In reality there si just sound happening and that's all) - I am the one hearing the sound.
A thought about a colour or a shape - I am the one that sees those.

Almost every thought, if not all, is about the self. Sometimes it might not be as obvious, but when looked at it a bit more closely, it turns out that these narrating thoughts are always about me (in some way or another).

Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.

These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

Please read carefully the above sentences. Look if they are really true. Let me know what you find.

So what you put to the other side is actual all about me.

Can you see that even these "other" thoughts are about me, although not overtly?


Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Luchana!

Is there such thing as mind at all?

Look now in this very moment for the mind.

Where is it? What is it?

When I look in this very moment I can’t find a mind. A thought appears - a concept of a bowl in the brain that holds the thoughts lol - but it’s just an idea, a thought. There’s no mind.

Good observation.
Let's look closer these seemingly "other" thoughts. When we look closer we see that even they are also related to the self, to me. Just i a hidden way.

A thought about a body-mind - I am the one with the body-mind, this body/mind whatever is mine..
A thought about a noise ( "noise" is a judgment comming from a thought, In reality there si just sound happening and that's all) - I am the one hearing the sound.
A thought about a colour or a shape - I am the one that sees those.

Almost every thought, if not all, is about the self. Sometimes it might not be as obvious, but when looked at it a bit more closely, it turns out that these narrating thoughts are always about me (in some way or another).

Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.

These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

Please read carefully the above sentences. Look if they are really true. Let me know what you find.

So what you put to the other side is actual all about me.

Can you see that even these "other" thoughts are about me, although not overtly?

Woww! Yes I read this a few times.

As I was doing the practice I saw that a few times for a split second that I couldn’t differentiate whether that thought was self or other, and there was confusion- I could see the one I thought was other was about the sense of me - but then another thought came. Lol yes they are all self centered. I think what I was doing was when I would head a sound even if the sense of the thought was “I hear a sound”, with a felt sense and position of an “I” noticing the thought, I would just in my head say, hearing sound bc that’s one of the practices. The narrating thoughts telling a story, painting a picture of what is happening- it’s wild to see this is all thoughts are doing. Always! So is there no freshness at all to a thought? Is it always filtered through an “I” with has a story of past and future?

These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

When I read this it so resonated- like yes I’ve seen this omg… thoughts are only really serving in the capacity of creating an identity??? All thoughts are creating the me!?? Why are they ever taken seriously lolll

Much love,
Nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

When I look in this very moment I can’t find a mind. A thought appears - a concept of a bowl in the brain that holds the thoughts lol - but it’s just an idea, a thought. There’s no mind.

Yea, a thought is sugesting something, but this can't be find in reality :-)

As I was doing the practice I saw that a few times for a split second that I couldn’t differentiate whether that thought was self or other, and there was confusion- I could see the one I thought was other was about the sense of me - but then another thought came. Lol yes they are all self centered. I think what I was doing was when I would head a sound even if the sense of the thought was “I hear a sound”, with a felt sense and position of an “I” noticing the thought, I would just in my head say, hearing sound bc that’s one of the practices. The narrating thoughts telling a story, painting a picture of what is happening- it’s wild to see this is all thoughts are doing. Always! So is there no freshness at all to a thought? Is it always filtered through an “I” with has a story of past and future?

Very nice looking. Yes, the narative always tells a story. Usually about something which is NOT happening in the moment :-) We can look at the concpets of past and future later as well.

Can you notice during the day how many of the thoughts are for something which is happening at the moment-cooking, playing with the kids etc.. and how many are for something which isn't?

When I read this it so resonated- like yes I’ve seen this omg… thoughts are only really serving in the capacity of creating an identity??? All thoughts are creating the me!?? Why are they ever taken seriously lolll

:-)
Well, let's look deeper

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?

And is thinking a doing or it is a happening?

Who or what is foing the thinking?

Who or what can even take thoughts seriously ot not take them seriously?

Take your time and reply each questions individually. Look many times during the day, do not rush replying immediatly when reading the questions.
The cat is never in a hurry :-)

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Luchana!! I’m sorry, I didn’t get this message until late at night Sunday. So I do want to take all of Monday to be with these questions, and seeing somethings while looking at them already! Wow… lol
I’ll message with the answers soon..
Even reading them and looking my body feels like a softening in the belly… is this common?
Much love, nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

sure - take your ime.
And thank you for letting me know.

Much love,
Luchana

[NikkiePhil21]

Hi Luchana!

Can you notice during the day how many of the thoughts are for something which is happening at the moment-cooking, playing with the kids etc.. and how many are for something which isn't?

Okay I spent a lot of time with this and maybe lost relaxed cat like looking bc aggravation arose. What I noticed was that most of the thoughts are about something which isn’t happening, and those thoughts create a heaviness. The ones about what’s happening like cleaning cooking playing with kids are lighter and harder to see bc the seem more immediate. But all thoughts are just happening

Can a thought think?

No a thought cannot think. It’s powerless. I noticed a correlation with tension in the body and thoughts about what isn’t happening. I’m not sure if the tension comes first or the thoughts. A thought rises and falls and another one appears, and another.

And is thinking a doing or it is a happening?

Thinking is a happening. No one is doing this. When I’m moving around kind of fast and there’s tension in the body it can seem like I’m doing the thinking but when I really look, it’s just happening on its own .

Who or what is foing the thinking?

No one is doing the thinking. I realized while moving around the kitchen, it was so automatic. The body knows specially where everything is and thinking isn’t really happening. It’s like the brain is thinking but I don’t really know where the thinking is coming from

Who or what can even take thoughts seriously ot not take them seriously?
[

When I look, no one takes thoughts seriously or doesn’t take thoughts seriously.


Much love,
Nikkie

[Luchana]

Hi Nikkie,

Okay I spent a lot of time with this and maybe lost relaxed cat like looking bc aggravation arose. What I noticed was that most of the thoughts are about something which isn’t happening, and those thoughts create a heaviness. The ones about what’s happening like cleaning cooking playing with kids are lighter and harder to see bc the seem more immediate. But all thoughts are just happening

Good observation. Keep noticing.

No a thought cannot think. It’s powerless. I noticed a correlation with tension in the body and thoughts about what isn’t happening. I’m not sure if the tension comes first or the thoughts. A thought rises and falls and another one appears, and another.

There seems that there is a correlation, but who or what is suggesting that?
Isn't it just another thought which say so?



Can you try and notice the labeling process - a thought is coming almost immediately after the experience and label it,


Here is something which may be helpful

All you need is 15-20 minutes, a pen & paper.

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience-
Is one truer than the other?
If so, which one? What is here without labels?
Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Thinking is a happening. No one is doing this. When I’m moving around kind of fast and there’s tension in the body it can seem like I’m doing the thinking but when I really look, it’s just happening on its own .

Nice :-) This is what happens when we look - we see how things are and not how we think they are.

No one is doing the thinking. I realized while moving around the kitchen, it was so automatic. The body knows specially where everything is and thinking isn’t really happening. It’s like the brain is thinking but I don’t really know where the thinking is coming from

And what a beautiful insight. We will come back here later after the exercise.

Much love,
Luchana