Let's do this

[ashton]

Hey vince

an analogy might be then you look at a painting and get engrossed with what is represented in it, then somebody asks you about the frame that it's in. In order to see that it's a painting, you have to stop being involved with the subject matter and take a wider perspective.
So you need to recognize that you have recognized the fact that you are suffering. Emphasis on the recognition.

Yeah, i mean i think ive been doing this all along. Im not so totally engrossed in the suffering, ive basically taken a step back and seen what thought provoked it.

So, what is the appropriate response to non-useful thought content?

Ideally I would say to ignore it or not take it so seriously, but even when I employ these things, it is just a matter of probability whether or not it works or keeps me going down the rabbit hole. In my experience, there just isnt any stopping it, or for me, there hasnt been a way with anywhere near 100% success rate.

Ash

[ashton]

Reply #2

You asked: So, what is the appropriate response to non-useful thought content?

I responded: Ideally I would say to ignore it or not take it so seriously, but even when I employ these things, it is just a matter of probability whether or not it works or keeps me going down the rabbit hole. In my experience, there just isnt any stopping it, or for me, there hasnt been a way with anywhere near 100% success rate.

You know, after seeing this... it makes sense why it is so futile. The best thing to actually do would be to not allow an environment conducive to creating non-useful thought content.

And with DE- I know that thoughts arise on the account of some sort of sensoral experience. I even know now in a highly probable way, if I were to see X, it would likely result in X thought- a thought that would make me suffer and lead to X action.

So basically, I now directly see what they mean when they say to get to the root of the problem. The root that starts thus whole process is what you come across sensually, because it will inevitably trigger you in some way.

Its about guarding the sense doors in some sort of way, so then certain thoughts physically cannot happen. I dont know how to go about doing this, but this would be without a doubt the most ideal way to go about it.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

The best thing to actually do would be to not allow an environment conducive to creating non-useful thought content.

Ha, Do you really think that you can control the environment that much?

I even know now in a highly probable way, if I were to see X, it would likely result in X thought- a thought that would make me suffer and lead to X action.

Thoughts don't control you. They are just one of the conditions that arise.
It just seems that you have to act on them when you get lost in the story that they are about.
That is why the recognition is the important thing. To recognize that thoughts about something that have arrived keeps you from getting lost in them.
Once you are at this point, then it's easy to let them flow on through without engagement. Just a turd floating on the river.

The root that starts this whole process is what you come across sensually, because it will inevitably trigger you in some way.

You need to go back and read this thread from the beginning, as I'm having to repeat things that I have already told you. In this case it is that there is no need to get to the root cause. Intense emotion will tell you that you have been triggered. Recgonizing this will take you out of the story.
You can't stay on guard watching for triggers. They are inevitable. There is a lifetime of conditioning behind them.
It's not the triggers that we need to change, but the response to them.

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince,

So, from reading your response, I think I have a semi-clear idea of the 'timeline' per se. I just want to make sure and ask a question before I go on with the quotes. The first thing I quote though after my question is my preconceived idea, Im just making sure Im understanding this all correctly. (Basically, your quote im gonna quote down below is probably the exact answer to my question, and if it is, the more in depth you could go into it would be super helpful)

Now for my question... on what part of the 'timeframe' (my own description of it), do I aim to "control" the suffering?

Here's an example scene: Im walking, I see a person that has some sort of trait, which triggers a "suffering thought", or at least, the idea that a "suffering thought" is about to occur. Next, in response to the thought, I basically have a "counter thought" of "if i do xyz, the suffering can be mitigated or avoided", so then an action comes about, like looking down or away, but then other feelings start to come in, like maybe shyness, avoidance, shame, etc.

Where in this scene (what part of this timeframe) can the suffering be avoided?

Using DE, I realize entirely now that I cannot avoid this scene. So it is not about stopping events from happening.

The next part of that timeline is the trigger (seeing the person). If this is the part that suffering is supposed to be knicked, then this is what I can come up with:
train myself to have a different response to inevitable triggers. If this is what I am supposed to do- HOW?
I saw a person, realized they were a trigger, NOW WHAT?
(The caps are normal tone, just placing emphasis that this is my question haha).

I could keep on going down the timeline, but I really think that the meat takes place here, so Ill refrain with the other what ifs down the timeline.

Thoughts don't control you. They are just one of the conditions that arise.
It just seems that you have to act on them when you get lost in the story that they are about.
That is why the recognition is the important thing. To recognize that thoughts about something that have arrived keeps you from getting lost in them.
Once you are at this point, then it's easy to let them flow on through without engagement. Just a turd floating on the river

Exactly. I witnessed the person, preconceived that they are going to be a trigger. Because they are, the suffering thought arises.

I do this all the time. I recognize that it is a suffering thought. Where I fail is, they are so fucking powerful, and I have no willpower per se to go against it.

What am I supposed to be doing, what is the focus, where is my problem occurring, etc?

These are my questions, because I am looking to end it once and for all.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Ash,

I am looking to end it once and for all.

First problem. You are fixated on an end result. As you say, you neither have the willpower (control) nor the aptitude to go directly to any imagined conclusion.

I saw a person, realized they were a trigger, NOW WHAT?

Ok, some subtlety is required here...
The most likely scenario is that because you saw that the likelihood of triggering was about to happen, it didn't. So celebrate, not the fact that didn't (that would strengthen the delusion of control)but the fact that you recognized that it was about to happen.
The second scenario is that the triggering was instantaneous and you are seeing it after it happened. Even though the stories that create the suffering have already started, you do the same thing. You celebrate that you recognized what was happening. Forget an end result. That would just induce different suffering.
This is about surrendering to what IS. To what life offers. To whatever it is that you become aware of as experiencing.
It is surrendering, not in resignation, but willingly and with good humor. You might as well anyway, for what you become aware of is already in the past and cant be changed. It is training your brain now so that the probability of future responses might be different. ('future responses' is a useful concept.)

I do this all the time. I recognize that it is a suffering thought. Where I fail is, they are so fucking powerful, and I have no willpower per se to go against it.

Exactly. So to use a judo analogy, you yield. You use the momentum of 'what is' and with one finger you deflect.
Rushing headlong into battle, one man against an army, you will be defeated. ..but win the ear of their chief strategy maker and convince him that you are no threat and they may just let you pass.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince,

Ok, some subtlety is required here...
The most likely scenario is that because you saw that the likelihood of triggering was about to happen, it didn't. So celebrate, not the fact that didn't (that would strengthen the delusion of control)but the fact that you recognized that it was about to happen.

The second scenario is that the triggering was instantaneous and you are seeing it after it happened. Even though the stories that create the suffering have already started, you do the same thing. You celebrate that you recognized what was happening. Forget an end result. That would just induce different suffering.

Holy shit, I want to thank you so much for these two replies.

Even though in my direct experience, the first reply doesnt happen anywhere near as much as the second, this was useful. It is these subtle differences I can tell that are going to make a huge difference, so thank you for going into the subtlety of what to do and what not to do.

You saying to celebrate the fact that it was recognized is the key. Because otherwise, id probably still be getting a happy feeling if the suffering didnt happen.

Onto your second reply. WOW. GOLD. This is what happens 99% of time in my DE, and now I know exactly what Ive been doing wrong, and how to do it right. Words cannot describe lol, this is the exact answer I was looking for that I myself didnt know the answer to

What you said happens all the time.The trigger is instantaneous, and the stories creating the suffering have already started.

My misconception all along has been that I can avoid these suffering stories. Now I know that I am not to go against the suffering. Not to go against the army. But to instead celebrate the fact that I recognized it was there.

It is training your brain now so that the probability of future responses might be different. ('future responses' is a useful concept.)

This is a genuine question. So by retraining my responses like you said to do above, are you implying that once I get good at that and it basically becomes a habit, that in the future, these responses will happen so naturally, making it as if, even when the suffering has already started, it either A: wont be the same, or B: the suffering wont even start?

If you could go indepth like you did to the other questions, itd be great. I'll just focus on what you said to do above, not on your answer to this question- as doing so is probably one of the only routes to achieve what youll answer anyways.

---

Vince, I really want to thank you for this response. You have no idea how helpful this one was. This is where all my questions and misconceptions were, and you just fixed them all at once. Seriously, Im assuming this is the main detail that gets misconstrued on the path that is the barrier between most people and the gateless gate. I think this is a MUST that should be spelled out to everyone like you did here.

Thanks for everything

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

the first reply doesn't happen anywhere near as much as the second,

Yes, After some practice, the first one will happen more frequently. That will be a sign that brain rewiring is happening. (again, don't get caught up in an end result - just watch with interest.)

So by retraining my responses like you said to do above, are you implying that once I get good at that and it basically becomes a habit, that in the future, these responses will happen so naturally, making it as if, even when the suffering has already started, it either A: won't be the same, or B: the suffering won't even start?

Yes, exactly. Although I have to say that after ten years there are still occasions when I get sucked into stories that create suffering. Recognition that I was sucked in usually happens minutes after and they evaporate.
i want you to notice what happens when recognition occurs. Notice if the follow-through into the content of the stories is different.

If you could go indepth like you did to the other questions, itd be great

I'm unclear what you want me to go in-depth about.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince,

i want you to notice what happens when recognition occurs. Notice if the follow-through into the content of the stories is different.

What ive noticed so far is that I notice the recognition of the suffering, and then usually the suffering thought usually still ends up happening, but the emotional response to it isnt as strong. So, it doesnt hurt as much as it would normally on an emotional level, but there is still usually the same or a little less of physical unpleasantness. Id also say that in doing this, I tend to just let it play out.

Id have to say, it sort of makes me naturally take a more observant stance of the sufferiing, rather than being completely entrenched in the suffering. And it sort of makes me have a "i know that suffering may come, but just deal with it" response to it, naturally occuring on its own.

Im assuming just to keep up with focusing on the recognition aspect no matter what, even when you prescribe me something else to look at? Haha

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

I notice the recognition of the suffering, and then usually the suffering thought usually still ends up happening, but the emotional response to it isn't as strong.

Excellent. With practice, you will recognize that suffering stories arrive sooner, and you will notice that recognition easier.

it sort of makes me naturally take a more observant stance of the suffering,

Yes, perfect. You can't suffer and observe that you are suffering at the same time. In order to be completely lost in the stories that provoke the suffering, you have to leave the observer perspective.
Soon you will find that taking the observer perspective will short circuit the stories that lead to suffering.
Keep going. You're doing good.

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince, sorry for the long wait. Ive been incredibly busy, but ive kept up on the daily with what you said.

Some of the things ive noticed so far:
For the most part, it works pretty well, focusing on the recognition.

Theres been maybe 2 or 3 cases where I run into an "issue". For instance in a a disagreement where the other person is moreso arguementative. I recognize the unpleasant emotion of knowing that I was in the right, being respectful. But then my Dad was saying that I was being disrespectful, even though I just asked a couple of questions, and I actually thought he was disrespectful.

Anyways, it was frustrating that he kept accusing me of being disrespectful, when in my eyes, I wasnt, and yet, to me, he was being disrespectful. I recognized all of this. I went in the shower, and the emotion was still strong. Still recognizing all of this. Even with all of this recognition, I still made the conscious decision to engage with all of these thoughts and emotions of a picture in my head of standing my ground (while i was in the shower)... basically just talking to myself and what I would do in certain xyzabc situations.

So like, i recognized all of these things, focused on it, but, still chose to go into all of the baggage. Weirdly it wasnt bad or anything, perhaps easier because of the recognition. I was still basically spectating myself. I guess im just asking if this is normal? Lol

Same with masturbating. I hate it. Ive been trying to abstain for maybe 3 years now. Im not asking for opinions on abstimence or anything, it is something I genuinely like and wish to perfect, but i have urges and lapses, and the addiction to it keeps worsening- I hate it. Ive done the recognition, and, although its only been so long doing this technique, id say it hasnt improved anything in terms of this "issue" <--- you know what i mean... doesnt have to be misconstrued. But again, same problem, I recognized the thoughts and urges, was fine at first, but then i chose to not give a fuck about the recognition and go and masturbate.

I know you said to not focus on the outcome and focus on the recognition. Idk, just some of my issues ive had. Might be completely normal, maybe not, idk. Your thoughts on how to handle these things would be much appreciated.


Oh yeah! Ive also been doing this technique on other things too, not just unpleasant things necessarily. Works good for all kinds of stuff.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

'evening Ash,

sorry for the long wait

No worries. While ever you are keeping the momentum going, take all of the time that you need.

I recognize the unpleasant emotion of knowing that I was in the right,

Right and wrong are made up concepts. i know that this is used frequently in our cult(ure), but what you were actually doing was defending the non-existent self.

But then my Dad was saying that I was being disrespectful,

His opinion of you isn't actually about you. It's his opinion. (none of your business)
As soon as you engage with him in this, it becomes a pissing match. Both defending their selves.

I guess im just asking if this is normal?

Yes, quite normal. It will happen less and less and when it happens it will dissolve quicker, but for the moment it's quite normal.

Same with masturbating. I hate it.

There's a story behind the hate. You don't hate breathing do you? What's the difference. It happens. Be relaxed. Morality is also made up in cultures. It doesn't actually exist. Just be cognizant of consequences. (they happen)

I recognized the thoughts and urges, was fine at first, but then i chose to not give a fuck about the recognition

Ha, you recognized. How you responded to it is irrelevant. The important thing is that you recognized.

Your thoughts on how to handle these things would be much appreciated.

You don't handle them. You just watch them. Whatever you DO isn't something that is controlled. It's a happening.

Oh yeah! Ive also been doing this technique on other things too, not just unpleasant things necessarily. Works good for all kinds of stuff.

Excellent. Discovery is wonder full, aye?

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince,

His opinion of you isn't actually about you. It's his opinion. (none of your business)
As soon as you engage with him in this, it becomes a pissing match. Both defending their selves.

So basically, just keep focusing on the recognition? Im assuming its not about trying to not engage with him, and more of focusing on the recognition, which will make this naturally happen?

Me: Same with masturbating. I hate it.
You: There's a story behind the hate. You don't hate breathing do you? What's the difference. It happens. Be relaxed. Morality is also made up in cultures. It doesn't actually exist. Just be cognizant of consequences. (they happen)

Since you brought up consequences, I wanted to ask you something. Does your focus on the recognition become dynamic as the events ensue? So like, usually for me this is what happens and what I do:
1. Thoughts regarding masturbating
2. Recognition
3. Physical and emotional urges
4. Recognition of that
5. Thoughts that I want to abstain
6. Recognized
7. ...
8. ...
9. Feelings of shame, guilt, tiredness, fatigue, loserness, etc.
10. Recognized
Etc.

Am I doing this right? This is typically how I do it, as events evolve, my recognition keeps up with what is happening. Also, should I stop at a certain point? Like, once unpleasant sensations are gone? I think its all personal preference, just asking

[vinceschubert]

'morning Ash,

So basically, just keep focusing on the recognition? Im assuming its not about trying to not engage with him, and more of focusing on the recognition, which will make this naturally happen?

Yes, yes. You have got it..

Does your focus on the recognition become dynamic as the events ensue?

Yes. Eventually, you will have the recognition before the event. Probably not always, but you will certainly get better at it.

usually for me this is what happens and what I do:
1. Thoughts regarding masturbating
2. Recognition
3. Physical and emotional urges
4. Recognition of that
5. Thoughts that I want to abstain
6. Recognized
7. ...
8. ...
9. Feelings of shame, guilt, tiredness, fatigue, loserness, etc.
10. Recognized
Etc.

That looks good. ..and not trying to do anything about what you recognize. Having no opinion about what is seen.

should I stop at a certain point? Like, once unpleasant sensations are gone?

That's a 'choice'. At a certain point you will see that it applies to pleasant sensations as well, but they (usually) aren't maladaptive.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince,

Is it unusual to go some time without needing this method? Its weird, but sometimes I find entire days go by where nothing is really unpleasant for me to do this on lol

Something Ive also been noticing through doing the recognition, is how, everything going on just is thrown on my plate whilst Im recognizing/really tuned in.

Like when I am in the shower just recognizing sensations, I can semi clearly see how they just unfold on their own, going from one thing to the next. Sometimes when I notice this, thoughts come in and cloud it all up because there will be thoughts of "everything happening on its own/no control" esque, which for whatever reason takes away this clarity of recognition. It basically brings awareness toward that thought and for whatever reason takes hold of it and doesnt allow awareness to see it happen in action- because it is now just trying to see it happen. Its really hard to explain, it just somehow stops the process in its tracks. Which is fine, i recognize all of that lol, just saying what usually happens.

and not trying to do anything about what you recognize. Having no opinion about what is seen.

Ive tried this and it is so weird. Most of the time, I may try and do this, but my body or mind cant bear it lol. Which tbh, makes me think I should look at this more.

But anyways what typically happens is, there is something i recognize, and then I may try and act so to speak of having no opinion, but then thoughts are generated that are of an opinion. Which to be quite honest, I think i just now solved my "problem". Ive always taken those thoughts to be of a personal opinion, but its just another thought to recognize. And any feeling of opinions coming from it, is actually just another thought lmfao.

Now i have to definitely look at this more in DE, i think this is where my problem has lied this whole time. It feels like such resistance, but it is because, when i face those thoughts, i take it as an opinion... but its really just abother thought that is unpleasant and should just be recognized, and then this will probably ease the suffering even more. This is quite honestly the only area i experience suffering in anymore since doing this method, and its basically because i didnt realize that this was an area i wasnt recognizing fully!

Thanks, ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

sometimes I find entire days go by where nothing is really unpleasant for me to do this on lol

Excellent. Ok, so now consider the possibility that pleasant emotions can also lead to suffering. Those that lead to ego enhancement. To greater identification.
Consider what identification is. What stimulates a sense of "I am that"?

I can semi clearly see how they just unfold on their own, going from one thing to the next.

Brilliant. Life-ing happens.
The why and the how are actually mysteries. Mysteries that we don't need to reveal. Well except to realize that they are too complex to describe accurately.

thoughts come in and cloud it all up

Ok, so smile and recognize that these thoughts are just more experiencing that is happening. No need to engage in what they are about. They're just thoughts.

and not trying to do anything about what you recognize. Having no opinion about what is seen.

I may try and do this, but my body or mind cant bear it

Ok, that's fine. It is an opportunity to practice not having an opinion about the opinion that arose.

And any feeling of opinions coming from it, is actually just another thought

Boy, you're hot.

Now i have to definitely look at this more in DE,

I know that it's hard not to do doing. Remember that doing strengthens the control delusion. If doing happens, look for the stories that push it.

with love

vince