Seeing Through the Self Illusion

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Griselda
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby Griselda » Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:34 am

What action can you or I take that will make a difference?
It's hard to say with Climate Change, since there are so many factors. I think if one wants to look at the history of individuals seemingly making a difference, it's perhaps easier to look at wars. There are examples of the citizens of a nation banding together to resist a vastly more powerful foe that might have seemed impossible to defeat. For example, the Spartans at Thermopylae were a tiny handful taking on the mighty Persian Empire. Though they sacrificed themselves, they saved Greece in the long run.
Do you think that there were many brush strokes that were redone?
Yes, I would guess there were. And I think that this brings us back to the basic question that we're exploring, and that Liberation Unleashed was founded to debunk: the existence of the Separate Self. Someone like me thinks, so many wise people say the Self doesn't exist, including you, and LI founders Ilona and Elena, and many Nondualist philosophers and of course various Buddhists and Hindus and Taoists going back thousands of years. So they MUST be right. But it doesn't FEEL to me that my 'Self' doesn't exist. I read so many things from realized people who say things like "Once the shift happens, it's so OBVIOUS that you wonder why you never saw it before." And it occurs to me that the difference between me and them is that they might say "the FEELING of a Self is not the same as the actual EXISTENCE of a Self". But I would say the opposite: if I FEEL the Self exists, then it does. Even if a neurologist could prove that the 'feeling' is actually just thousands of chemical processes in the brain, it still feels REAL to me, and that's all that matters.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:15 pm

Good evening Griselda,
What action can you or I take that will make a difference?
It's hard to say with Climate Change, since there are so many factors.
Exactly, there are so many factors and if enough of them happen to align then it might happen that you or me might make a difference, but since so many of those factors are outside of our control, it's not likely to happen.
o many wise people say the Self doesn't exist,
Ok, try this; A self does exist. It consists of actions and reactions scripted by beliefs about Griselda (or vince)
We have a metaphorical book that is filled with chapter after chapter of descriptions of characteristics about me.
Those that we believe, that we respond to emotionally and behaviorally.
This is where the illusion of an inherently separate self originates.
Language has evolved to communicate and because we communicate so much about that story of me, it (language) enhances the illusion of an existent & separate self.
if I FEEL the Self exists, then it does.
Have you seen the rubber hand illusion? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... V3ICAguqAC
After watching it, are you going to argue that because you FEEL like the rubber one is yours, that it actually is?

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Griselda
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby Griselda » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:36 am

Ok, try this; A self does exist. It consists of actions and reactions scripted by beliefs about Griselda (or vince)
We have a metaphorical book that is filled with chapter after chapter of descriptions of characteristics about me.
Those that we believe, that we respond to emotionally and behaviorally.
This is where the illusion of an inherently separate self originates.
Language has evolved to communicate and because we communicate so much about that story of me, it (language) enhances the illusion of an existent & separate self.
I 'believe' you are correct. That is, I've spent so much time in spiritual and nonduality circles that I've read this kind of
thing many times and it makes sense. It seems like it OUGHT to be so. But I don't LIVE this truth. My everyday experience is that I am a separate self. I can read lots of accounts of people on the Liberation Unleashed site, or in the books by Ilona and Elena, and I'll conclude "Those people are telling the truth. They have dropped belief in a separate self."
So while I BELIEVE that it must be true for THEM, it is not what's experienced HERE.
Have you seen the rubber hand illusion? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... V3ICAguqAC
After watching it, are you going to argue that because you FEEL like the rubber one is yours, that it actually is?
I LOVE the rubber hand illusion. If I could find that guy in the video, I'd like to do the experiment. To answer your
question, no, I wouldn't argue that the rubber one is actually my hand. But that doesn't translate to seeing there is not a Self. If you were a neurosurgeon and showed me a PET scan of my brain, and you said "see these electrical impulses on this chart? That is all your self is: a bunch of electrical connections". Maybe you'd convince me, especially if I was also a neurosurgeon and worked with brains every day. But in real life I'd STILL feel that I was a self that caused things, that suffered, that went through anxiety and fear and depression. I might have an INTELLECTUAL understanding that the self must just be some electrical events in a clump of gray matter, but it wouldn't change how I FEEL.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:58 pm

Good evening Griselda,
, it is not what's experienced HERE.
Yes, and you will always experience a self, and you will always experience others as separate, and you will always experience the world as 'out there'.
This is because your senses tell you this.
You see milk coming from a carton but you know that a cow is involved.
look at this illusion. Your experience will tell you that the orange circles are a different size.
https://www.seevividly.com/images/Ebbin ... lusion.png ..but something tells you that you are experiencing an illusion. Where is that something when it comes to a self?

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Griselda
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby Griselda » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:11 am

https://www.seevividly.com/images/Ebbin ... lusion.png ..but something tells you that you are experiencing an illusion. Where is that something when it comes to a self?
Ah, that's the key question, isn't it? I love optical illusions like this one. Yes, something tells me I am experiencing an illusion. But I don't find anything telling me that the self is an illusion (well, other than YOU and LU guides!)

I mean, I imagine that 99% people on Earth are intrigued and amused by optical illusions. But 99% of people also believe in a separate self. So clearly they haven't made a connection.

I remember a while back you mentioned Jill Bolte Taylor, the woman who had a stroke that immobilized her left brain, so that all her experience was mediated by the right brain, which turned out to be really Nondual. Today I read a discussion of that from Judy Cohen's 'Mind Tickler':



It watches you, you know.

It watches with awareness – awareness of the mind, the ego, the self with all its stories, convictions, and histories. It watches that self with peace and gentle acceptance. Not to mention, bliss.

What are we talking about?

Well, the right hemisphere of the human brain of course. (You thought I meant something else?)

The right side of the brain is where presence, happiness, a sense of unlimited vastness, oneness, and non-individuality live.

"My right brain did not recognize the boundaries of my body. Usually you know where you begin and end. I felt as big as the universe! I was the collective whole, connected to everyone and everything—I was completely fluid."
--Jill Bolte Taylor

The right brain is where the divine is experienced.

And it is quietly aware of what we think of as “ourselves”.

"Why is the right hemisphere generally willing to bear silent witness to the errors and confabulations of the left? Could it be the right hemisphere is used to it? The non-speaking hemisphere has known the true state of affairs from a very tender age. The point of view from which you are consciously reading these words may not be the ONLY conscious point of view to be found in your brain. It is one thing to say you are unaware of a vast amount of activity in your brain. It is quite another to say that some of this activity is aware of itself and is watching your every move." --Sam Harris

To seekers of enlightenment or “god consciousness”, this might all sound vaguely familiar.

On the other hand, the left hemisphere of the human brain provides what is commonly called the “inner voice,” along with language, memory and the ability to figure things out.

The left side manufactures, defends, and inserts into everywhere possible,

The individual self.

The left side houses the sense of self.

Not an actual self of course. There’s no little person inside that brain. Just a sense of one.

Turns out, if the human mind lives anywhere, it lives in the left side of the brain.

Which is why certain placements of left-brain stroke can shut down the mean voice in the head and leave connection to God, love and bliss in its place, in a heartbeat.

“I do not see how a non-dual awakening can be anything other than a physiological change in the brain... Symbolic thought is mostly mediated by language, so it is easy to see how shutting down the language faculty by a stroke or by less drastic means could act as a mechanism for plunging the mind into non-dual awareness.”
--Patrick Kenny, Phd

Now to be clear, this is not to say, “Oh yay, gimme a stroke!”

Not least because, in order to have such a grand experience, a stroke has to happen only in exactly-placed centers of the brain.

Otherwise it’s just misery and wordless anger and an inability to speak, function, drive, or button your pants.

Most serious left-brain damage leaves people desperately wishing, for the rest of their lives, for their old life back.

Or y’know, dead.

So no, I’m not advising it. Not recommended.

Luckily in healthy, undamaged brains, the two sides are connected and work in harmony all day every day, each doing their respective jobs.

“The notion of a separate organism is clearly an abstraction, as is also its boundary. Underlying all this is unbroken wholeness even though our civilization has developed in such a way as to strongly emphasize the separation into parts.”
--David Bohm

So then what is your friendly Mind-Tickler suggesting by this discussion?

Are we saying that self-realization and enlightenment is simply brain stuff? Is consciousness only a brain function?

Considering all the evidence that trees and bacteria and other life forms are also conscious, though they don’t have a brain we can point to, maybe we could ask different questions.

Because it may be not that consciousness lives in the brain, but rather, that consciousness, always everywhere unnoticed, expresses itself utilizing the hardware of the brain.

Much like vibrations coming through a theremin, or radio waves coming through a radio, need the hardware in order to be received and heard. Vibrations and waves apparently invisible and not there, until the instrument picks up and plays them.

So what if the enlightenment so many are chasing- the oneness, connection, seeing that the self is fiction, or the bliss and beauty of the vast divine- is in there, right now…

Just waiting for the instrument to play it?

Waiting for the left brain to stop its loud bullying and dominating verbal puffery just for a moment, in order to allow perception of something much quieter, much softer, but already present?

What if enlightenment is always here, and everyone - as long as we’re not brain damaged and even if in certain ways we are- carries this availability?

An enlightenment which doesn't have to be accessed, or known, or attained, or kept permanently.

Because it’s there already.

Right there in the right brain.

Always.

Just as so many teachers have said, in so many different ways, with the same message, for centuries.

Because if it is the brain which gives access to the divine,

then God is here.

And It

is us.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:32 pm

Good morning Giselda,
But I don't find anything telling me that the self is an illusion (well, other than YOU and LU guides!)
..and how many times through the rest of your post do others say the same thing.
...but it's important that you don't just accept what others say. These are all invitations to look for yourself.
The question for you is "Why believe what your thoughts say about what your experiencing means."?
In the case of a self, the sensations that you experience are actual but the mind overlays them with the concept of self. You them get hoodwinked into believing that the concept is actual. It's not. It's thoughts ABOUT the meaning of the sensations.
Oh, great post, by the way..
i haven't read any of this stuff for 10 years. It was uplifting.

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Griselda
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby Griselda » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:26 pm

The question for you is "Why believe what your thoughts say about what your experiencing means."?
In the case of a self, the sensations that you experience are actual but the mind overlays them with the concept of self. You them get hoodwinked into believing that the concept is actual. It's not. It's thoughts ABOUT the meaning of the sensations.
I think we're looking squarely at the difference between people who see No-self and those who don't. I'm sure you're familiar with the phenomenon whereby two people can look at the same set of facts and derive different conclusions,

So, in this case, you say the sense of self sensations are actual. I agree. Then you say the self is a concept created by thought. I have to agree with that too. Because everything I experience is created by thought. But then the difference appears: You say that because the Self is created by thought, it doesn't exist. Whereas I say yes, it's created by thought, but it DOES EXIST.

That doesn't mean I'm not aware that when I was an infant, before the development of the Self, there was no 'I'. I can see how the 'me' came into existence at some point during childhood, and has stuck around for decades. And yes, it's a persistent structure made up of thought. But it's still real. I can look and look for decades (and I have) and it is still real.
I feel like a self, and I'm separate from the rest of the universe. If someone says that's a concept created by thought and is not real, all I can say is that is not what is found here.

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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:28 pm

Good morning Griselda,
But then the difference appears: You say that because the Self is created by thought, it doesn't exist. Whereas I say yes, it's created by thought, but it DOES EXIST.
Yes, you win. It does exist. It exists in the same way that a university exists.
When you go to a university, what do you find? (rhetorical question)
You find buildings, students, lecturers, professors, etc.
Even collectively they don't make up the university. There has to be a (made up) purpose. The intent and the behavior to transmit (and in some cases, discover) knowledge.
So, what is a university? It is a concept that encompasses actual things and conceptual 'things'.
Even less tangibly, we have different parts of the brain that when dead are just lumps of cholesterol, but when alive and healthy and operating create certain thoughts.
The thoughts are actual. What they are about is conceptual. Our response to the thought content (concepts) is actual. What those responses mean is conceptual. Our response to that meaning is actual, but what that means is conceptual.
Which part is the self?
Do you know what an abstract noun is?
What LU is about is that the self is not a concrete noun. It has no inherent, independent existence.
What is the point of recognizing this?
It is to change the way the brain works so that it can have more right hemisphere activity and to decrease the left's dominance.
In our cult(ures) we have too much left brain tyranny. This directly relates to the greed and fear which results in so much suffering.
i do imagine that you understand and appreciate this.
Your sense of self will never go away. It takes care of us. It is useful, but it doesn't meant that it has independence.

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby Griselda » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:17 pm

What is the point of recognizing this?
It is to change the way the brain works so that it can have more right hemisphere activity and to decrease the left's dominance.
In our cult(ures) we have too much left brain tyranny. This directly relates to the greed and fear which results in so much suffering.
I like that. It has the ring of truth to it. But what seems to be apparent is that some people can see this through dialogue
while others can only see it through some kind of physical experience, like a stroke. As the guy quoted in that other article says:

“I do not see how a non-dual awakening can be anything other than a physiological change in the brain... Symbolic thought is mostly mediated by language, so it is easy to see how shutting down the language faculty by a stroke or by less drastic means could act as a mechanism for plunging the mind into non-dual awareness.”
--Patrick Kenny, Phd

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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:55 am

Good evening Griselda,
"...a stroke or by less drastic means could act as a mechanism for plunging the mind into non-dual awareness.”
So what do you need for your experiencing to catch up with what you realize intellectually?

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Griselda
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby Griselda » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:14 am

"...a stroke or by less drastic means could act as a mechanism for plunging the mind into non-dual awareness.”

So what do you need for your experiencing to catch up with what you realize intellectually?

My best answer to this right now is having a stroke like Jill Bolte Taylor did. Or, achieving the same thing surgically by
having someone cut the corpus callosum, the bundle of nerve fibres that connects the left and right brain. Or perhaps chemically by taking MEO-DMT or some other hallucinogen.

I don't LIKE the fact that that is my best answer. Those are drastic strategies that I wouldn't really pursue, even if they
were somehow available (I guess the DMT is somewhat available, though illegal). I would LIKE my answer to be "Like all the people in Gateless Gatecrashers and other LU publications, I'll just look deeply at where I think the 'Self' is, and keep looking until I see it's not there and never was."

That's the RIGHT way to do it, the easiest and cheapest way, the way that doesn't require trips to India to meditate for years, or the physical distress and possible brain damage of a stroke.

But it doesn't work for me.

Thus, when an LU guide says "Think of Santa Claus. Can you see that even though you believed in him as a kid,
as soon as you saw he wasn't real, you realized that he'd NEVER been real? And isn't the self like that?"

I reply "Yes, Santa is like that. But no, the Self is not like that. It's always there and it's real. Every faculty I have for
determining whether something is real or not says to me that the Self is real, and there all the time."

If a guide says "close your eyes and imagine an orange in your hand. Imagine the texture, the weight, the smell. Now open your eyes. Is the orange still there?" I reply "I can see the orange was a phantom. But that's not what I see with regard to the Self. It's permanent."

And by the way, since I question everything all the time, I'm not sure what to do with the statement "I realize the non-existence of the 'I' intellectually, but it's not an experience for me".

I know people say that all the time, but is it something that I can say? I don't think so. I would go so far as to say "Many many smart people like Ramana Maharshi and the Buddha and Ilona and Elena and Vince see that there is No Self, so it must be the case." But it's going too far to say that I 'know it intellectually'. I don't know it at all.

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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:14 pm

Good evening Griselda,
I'll just look deeply at where I think the 'Self' is, and keep looking until I see it's not there and never was."
Are you looking for what is not there, or what is there?
But it doesn't work for me.
It can. It's just a matter of having the necessary conditions all present and aligned. We are about discovering which those are..
Every faculty I have for determining whether something is real...
Hmm, ok, a rant coming up. Please confirm (or deny - or leave as a mystery) each point(ing)
Just like there is no independent self, there is no objective reality.
There is only THIS. Which is current experiencing.
EVERYTHING else is a mental story. (even if that story is that it is unknown. A mystery)
Sure, there is something 'out there'. But what is is is a mystery. A person, a cat, a dog, a donkey, an insect, a reptile, a nocturnal animal, they will all perceive the same object differently.
In fact line up 100 humans and they will experience 100 different perceptions of it.
Next point; We respond to the stories that arise from our previous response. All day, every day, story/response/story/response/etc..
i prefer the word "actual" rather than "real".
If you touch something, does that prove that it is actual? (rhetorical question)
No. You experienced a sensation (of touch) then mind reasoned that the sensation was caused by something 'real'.
What was actual was the experiencing of an activated touch sensor. The rest is actually conceptual.
Your self is conceptual. It's the interpretation of perceived sensations that conclude that a self exists.

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Griselda
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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby Griselda » Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:44 pm

I'll just look deeply at where I think the 'Self' is, and keep looking until I see it's not there and never was."
Are you looking for what is not there, or what is there?
Good question. I sense that it is there, and that there is no reason to question it. I can find no faculty or power within me that perceives that the Self is not there. But I surround myself with people like you who say Self is not real. The fact that I do that, and have for years, indicates that there must be something deep inside me that believes (or 'sees') that.

But it doesn't work for me.
It can. It's just a matter of having the necessary conditions all present and aligned. We are about discovering which those are..
I like that. I don't know why, but I do.
Hmm, ok, a rant coming up. Please confirm (or deny - or leave as a mystery) each point(ing)
I will do as you say. I will confirm, deny, or leave as a mystery.
Just like there is no independent self, there is no objective reality.
I choose option #3, 'leave as a mystery.' It sounds incredibly profound, and so 'wise' that it MUST be true,
and I've heard lots of spiritual people from the Buddha on down to the present day say such things,
but it doesn't resonate with me. I hope it's true, but it remains a beautiful but unproven claim for me.
There is only THIS. Which is current experiencing.
EVERYTHING else is a mental story. (even if that story is that it is unknown. A mystery)
I suppose I have to 'confirm' that one. Outside what my 5 senses perceive in this room, I don't know for sure
that anything else exists. I BELIEVE the rest of the world exists, but I don't actually KNOW.
Sure, there is something 'out there'. But what is is is a mystery. A person, a cat, a dog, a donkey, an insect, a reptile, a nocturnal animal, they will all perceive the same object differently.
In fact line up 100 humans and they will experience 100 different perceptions of it.
I can confirm that one also.
Next point; We respond to the stories that arise from our previous response. All day, every day, story/response/story/response/etc..
i prefer the word "actual" rather than "real".
If you touch something, does that prove that it is actual? (rhetorical question)
No. You experienced a sensation (of touch) then mind reasoned that the sensation was caused by something 'real'.
What was actual was the experiencing of an activated touch sensor. The rest is actually conceptual.
Your self is conceptual. It's the interpretation of perceived sensations that conclude that a self exists.
This seems like the crux of the issue. This is the key nugget. It has a tantalizing aura of truth around it; it is both spiritually reasonable and scientifically plausible. But to answer in the way you requested, I must say it is a mystery.
It sounds true, but it is not something I SEE. But I know I will keep trying.

I am so impressed, Vince, that you put up with me. What enormous patience you have! I would not put up with someone like me. I feel like such a dense fool. Or perhaps it's better to say that I feel BLIND; Vince and all other LU people can see this, but I cannot. But I will keep trying.

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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:43 pm

'evening Griselda,
I sense that it is there,
..and just to clarify, do you sense that it has more integrity than being beliefs about Griselda?
I am so impressed, Vince, that you put up with me.
Ha, I love hard nuts like you. i have to dig deeper, and so get more out of it. Waking up isn't a destination. It's just finding a path of discovery that (I imagine) never ends.
I feel like such a dense fool.
Ha, no need to feel this. My seeking journey took 43 years.
But I will keep trying.
Trying doesn't help, but persistence does.

with love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Seeing Through the Self Illusion

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:27 am

Griselda, i'm inviting you to a zoom meeting on Sunday. You might find it interesting and useful to talk &/or listen to others in a similar situation.
Third weekend of every month
Saturday 19th Feb 6 pm-8 pm British time,
Sunday, 20th Feb 10 am-12 am British time
You can join both days or one depending your time zone.
The meetings will be led by Liberation Unleashed guides.
No agenda, no promises or expectations, just being and sharing together.
Here is a link to join
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853...

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info


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