Seeing no-self

[ivan93sd]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
'Self' is only a word, a concept, pointing to nothing. The sense of self develops at an early age under the influence of our parents and the environment and it is further strengthened by constant comparisons with 'others'. At a very early age, we see no division between the subject and object of perception, we are the entire visual field.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to finally see the truth of no-self in direct experience. Although I seem to be able to grasp basic concepts, direct experience of no-self is still missing. There have be some changes lately, glimpses of the 'here and now', but I still haven't seen through the illusion.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To see through the illusion of separate self, to be able to see reality as it is, to get rid of the illusion of doership. Hopefully, we can get there with direct pointing, and honest reporting of my direct experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Two years of intensive search, reading material included J. Krishnamurti, Osho, Gurdjieff, Adyashanti, Jed McKenna and various other authors. There has been a big shift from theorising to looking at direct experience, esp. after reading UG who described the entire process in simple physiological terms. Lately I've been doing experiments developed by Douglas Harding (the Headless Way).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Lubo and I can join you in this journey, if you are OK?

Here it is the first question where to look:

I would like to finally see the truth of no-self in direct experience

Where the word I point to? Where is this one who wants to see?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hey Lubo,

Thanks for doing this :)

Just wanted to mention that I have already done most of the exercises from the LU book and tried talking to another guide; no controller, no doer of any kind are found, there is no separate entity inside, this is seen with certainty, but there still seems to be some clinging, and there is no direct experience. There are instances, e.g. during walking, running, when it seems that the whole picture will dissolve, that there is only seeing, hearing, sensations etc. without the subject, but these are just some minor glimpses.

Where the word I point to? Where is this one who wants to see?

It points to nothing, no 'I', no 'me', is found inside. This is seen to be only a word, a thought, that cannot exercise control, make decisions, etc.

*I am wondering why I am still inquiring about no-self even after recognizing that there’s no ‘me’. That is a certainty, there’s nothing there, just an I-thought which is no more relevant than all the other thoughts that arise. Sure, various thoughts and objections arise afterwards (‘this can’t be it’, ‘have I actually seen it’, ‘what am I still clinging to’; but these are just desperate attempts to keep an illusion that ‘I’ is something rather than nothing). There is no-one to whom these thoughts are coming.

Love,
ivan

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,
Thanks for the replay.

and tried talking to another guide

Yes I saw the conversation with Jadzia, thanks to letting me know.

I am wondering why I am still inquiring about no-self even after recognizing that there’s no ‘me’. That is a certainty, there’s nothing there, just an I-thought which is no more relevant than all the other thoughts that arise. Sure, various thoughts and objections arise afterwards (‘this can’t be it’, ‘have I actually seen it’, ‘what am I still clinging to’; but these are just desperate attempts to keep an illusion that ‘I’ is something rather than nothing). There is no-one to whom these thoughts are coming.

I understand where are you.
"There is no self" is just a pointer to reality. This is impossible to see NoSelf or to see NoSanta.
The answer "there is nothing" is just a a concept. How a nothing can be seen?
Notice, without concept of a me, what is here?
Is there something other than freedom?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

"There is no self" is just a pointer to reality. This is impossible to see NoSelf or to see NoSanta.
The answer "there is nothing" is just a concept. How a nothing can be seen?

Right, so the expectation of a specific 'event' or 'experience' may be in the way. There's just no more belief in something we were sure was there, but the sense of 'I' still remains? It's just seen through for what it is; there are still sensations, feelings, thoughts etc. and the 'story' continues, but it's seen that the separare entity experiencing all of this is illusory.

Notice, without concept of a me, what is here?
Is there something other than freedom?

Just events, sensations, thoughts, apparent 'others', everything happening automatically. It seems, during walks for example, that it's possible to completely remove 'me' from the picture, looking at the environment not from the perspective of 'ivan' but just empty space, as a part of the visual field. It's seen more and more that there is no difference between 'people' and 'objects'.

Love,
ivan

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,
You fight very brave for the freedom, thank you for this.

Notice the sounds and colours, are they freedom itself?
Do the thoughts and concepts understand or limit freedom?
Notice that , thoughts fixed something and start explaining it or understand it it has noting to do with reality ?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hey Lubo, sorry for the delay, I will start posting every day from now on.

Notice the sounds and colours, are they freedom itself?

Yes, the sounds and colours are freedom itself. When looking at any ‘object’, e.g. looking at the hands, the body or the chair, after some time they lose solidity, I can see them just as colour, as a picture, they disappear for a couple of seconds, then reappear.

Do the thoughts and concepts understand or limit freedom?

Thoughts and concepts and words limit freedom, they create artificial boundaries. All the time we are judging and interpreting and trying to classify what we see, and in this process we are moving away from what is.

Notice that , thoughts fixed something and start explaining it or understand it it has noting to do with reality ?

Yes, they just limit and distort our perception of reality.

In the last month, I focused on the ‘story’ and tried to look at myself as a fictional character. It’s clear how the story was built, how new characters were introduced, it’s recognized how they were built from the books and movies I read and watched. Others are not seen as they are, but as a complement to my self-image.

Ir’s recognized now that there is no entity inside. It’s completely imagined, just a thought. I was thinking about how I had replaced 'material' goals with ‘spiritual’ goals, but it is all the same, it is the same movement of ‘becoming’, moving further away from what is.

At this point, it seems there is nothing to do, there is no ‘I’ to be freed. The entity that wants to understand, achieve and become is simply not there.

Love,

ivan

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,
This is wonderful :)
Tell me more.
What is here then?
What about thoughts?
Is there any difference in the daily life so to speak?
How actions are happening?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Not much has changed, and there is quite a lot of frustration and disappointment concerning this. The expectation of some kind of shift is still there. Thoughts still arise, but they are not given as much importance as before. I feel as if there is an army of people living in my mind carefully following my every move, and instructing me, but I am becoming less and less reactive to the arising thoughts :) Actions are happening automatically, I can see how even simple decisions like choosing an item in the market or choosing a movie to watch are happening. No commander is found inside when looking. I've started noticing behaviour of people around me that wasn't seen before, it seems like the dream characters are slowly starting to dissolve together with the image I have about 'myself'. There is no one here but me, all beauty and all ugliness experienced in the past were my own.

[chrysalis]

How can I see what 'here and now' points to. Is it the same as in the dream where space and time are completely imagined. There seem to be periods without a single thought, without any chattering of the mind. At that time, there are only colours, sounds, typing, breath, etc. What is missing.

[Lubo]

Ok. I understand where are you.

There seem to be periods without a single thought, without any chattering of the mind. At that time, there are only colours, sounds, typing, breath, etc. What is missing.

Who wants to abide in period without thoughts?
Who don't want thoughts to be here or to be different?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Who wants to abide in period without thoughts?
Who don't want thoughts to be here or to be different?

No separate entity wanting this is found when looking, the subject is completely imagined, just a thought.

There were some minor glimpses: only the immediate vicinity is seen, the entire surrounding becomes blurred and it is seen as an optical illusion. 'Other people' are seen as actors coming on and off the stage, appearing and disappearing from the field of vision.

Love,
ivan

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,

the entire surrounding becomes blurred and it is seen as an optical illusion. 'Other people' are seen as actors coming on and off the stage, appearing and disappearing from the field of vision.

Is there a visual field in which things appear and disappear? Are there 2 things?
Is there (1)subject + (1)who sees + (1) object = 3 things , but what word non-dual point to?
Let's investigate this:
Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Seeing Exercise – Part II
Let's move on to opening the eyes now.
Again, address this very simply - The 'seeing' sense only for the moment.
With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc
What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is, I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.
This might be a little more tricky, but give it some consideration.
1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?
3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Justin be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'? Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Love
lubo

[chrysalis]

Hi Lubo,

Thanks for this exercise.

I.

1) Yes, only 'blackness' is experienced;
2) No, there is just 'blackness' in 'seeing;;
3) No witness is found;
4) Again, there is just 'blackness', no 'I', 'me' or 'person' is found.

No inherent seer can be found, everything suggested is a concept/idea, there is no 'seer' in actuality.

II.

1) Yes, only 'what can be seen' is experienced;
2) There is just 'what can be seen' in 'seeing';
3) No witness of 'what can be seen' is found;
4) Again, there is only 'what can be seen', no 'I', 'me' or 'person'.

No inherent seer is found other than as a concept/idea.

Love,
ivan

[Lubo]

Hi Ivan,
Wonderful

Yes, only 'blackness' is experienced;

1) Yes, only 'what can be seen' is experienced;

In the same way
Notice what is every day life looks like - dressing, drinking coffee, reading... is there an I in this what happens?

Merry Christmass :)
lubo