Reading “Liberation Unleashed” - had some questions

[Turnip]

Hey Barry

How's it going? Happy to talk on Zoom or respond on here as needed. I remember it's a difficult seeming time looking at that fear.

With love

Tim

[BarBarryN]

Hello Tim,
Strange, I didn't get notification of this message-- would have responded sooner.

Since our last message I've done Ilona's "Deep Looking Meditation: Meeting The Fear" several times-- smaller fears have risen and been put to rest. Nothing close to the fear I found in my previous post, though.

Some anxiousness with "let's get this done" sort of attitude rises. Feels like something has been agitated in my mind - contractions have risen, doubt, sadness, etc. Looking for that openness and stillness.

Thank you for checking in on me. We have our Thanksgiving Holiday coming up and will be out of town for the next week. I will post here if anything rises / guidance is needed.

Sending love

Barry

[Turnip]

Hi Barry and Happy Thanksgiving!

Thanks for the update. Enjoy your holiday and I look forward to hearing from you afterwards perhaps or as needed beforehand.

With love

Tim

PS There's a spanner (wrench?) symbol above and to the left of the message box where you should be able to set notification preferences.

[BarBarryN]

Hi Tim,
Hope this message finds you well.

Just wanted to send a note-- not much has changed since our last discussion.
As of this moment, the searching seemed to have died down.

Not really sure where to go from here (like there really is anywhere to go).

Sending love,

Barry

[Turnip]

Hi Barry

Good to hear from you.

Sometimes the seeking can seem to fade away and you can be happy with that and it may one day just rear up again and be stronger than ever. Sometimes it can feel scary to face the fear and it's that that suppresses the seeking but it still niggles away like a job unfinished.

Would you like to have another Zoom call or shall we look at things on here for a while or would you like to just leave it be? Whatever you decide is just fine. :)

With love

Tim

[BarBarryN]

Hi Tim,
Sorry for the late reply-- been very busy these last few days.
Traveling to NYC for the weekend but I would very much like to skype again. I know the holidays are coming fast and other obligations come but I'm available on Saturday the 18th or Sunday the 19th if any of those days work for you.
I would like to explore that strong fear that rose a few weeks ago.

Talk soon,
Barry

[Turnip]

Hi there

I'm away from the 16th to the 19th but could manage something before then if possible. Perhaps switch to email to arrange a date.

Cheers

Tim

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Barry, vince here. i will accompany you for a while.
Tell me about the fear that arise a few weeks back.

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hi Vince,
Great to hear from you and I'm happy you're here.
Tim was a great guide and opened up several things for me... including this fear.

Tell me about the fear that arise a few weeks back.

Tim and I were discussing control and I came to the conclusion, was shown, that I don't have any control.
There is an appearance of control. I'm choosing to raise my left hand now, I'm choosing to respond to you right now, but just as I type the words-- they are just arising from nowhere and I see that. Even choosing to raise my left hand was really a thought that said, raise your left hand, and there is 0 control over the thoughts. Simply, I have no control.

At first it was a "no big deal". Great! If I don't shovel the snow right away that's not my fault I have no control. If I decide to skip working out that's too bad, it's out of my control, etc. All the "good things" of having no control. But then I dug deeper into this logic... even typing this now I feel this energy racing through the whole body. like a live wire. Contraction around the chest and abdomen. Some shaking. It's a nervous energy like waiting in line for a roller coaster or something.

And honestly I can't tell you, right now, what about having no control was so scary... thinking about it. I think it turned into a fear that felt like I was about to get lost. Like I was just about to be blown out into an infinite space all alone with no way to ever return. That's what it felt like.



I've been reading through some of the forum the last few days and I stumbled on this exercise-- similar to something Tim and I had done-- but it was just noting everyday things but simply noting the experience as a sense (or thought).

Like brushing teeth = taste & touch
Stepping outside = sight & touch & sound etc .

And last night, out of routine, I was saying a prayer before bed and noted it as a thought and I could feel that fear slowly creeping in. Like my prayer was just a little voice rattling off some useless prayer in a cave. There is nothing in there to hear this other than more thoughts and it made me very sad. But not too sad because here I am trying to tackle it again.

Sending appreciations!

-Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Barry, Sorry about the delay in replying. The forum didn't notify me that you had posted. It has been playing up a bit for some time now. Anyway...

Great to hear from you and I'm happy you're here.

Good stuff. I'm happy to be here too. i get continued awakening from guiding.

Tim and I were discussing control and I came to the conclusion, was shown, that I don't have any control.

From reading the rest of your post, I can see that you have fallen into a bit of an existential hole. No worries, it is easily fixed.
The notion of control is usually delusional. That is people believe that using will power that they can determine outcomes.
Ha, they completely miss the logic that if they actually had control that then it' wouldn't be occasional. They would always have control.
If you take an example, say walking to your computer to see if there is a response to your post, how many conditions are necessary for that to happen? (rhetorical question) Infinite - right. The first (and possibly the most critical one) is the thought to do it has to arise. Call that an intention thought.
Then there has to be your ability to walk. ..and the computer has to be working, ..and the desk that it sits on has to exist, ..and you have to be available (not busy elsewhere) ..and you have to have joined the forum, ..and you have to have had lofe experiences that led you to seek spiritual awakening, ...and your parents had to copulate to have created you, ...and their parents had to do likewise, ...and multiple generations before that the circumstances had to be conducive for everything that resulted in computers being invented, etc.
If you look in sufficient detail, you will realize that everything that has ever happened, ever, was necessary, in exactly the way it happened, for any happening to eventuate the way it did. Change one thing centuries ago, anywhere in the world and things would be different today.
Some people say that there is an intelligence behind all of this. Maybe, maybe not. My experience leaves this as a mystery.
Now, you know yourself that when an intention arises that sometimes it is successfully completed and sometimes not.
When it isn't it is because circumstances dictate otherwise.
Now this is not to say that we are entirely controlled by circumstances. Determinism is as much a delusion as control.
Your experience and your skill, your nature and your habits all play a part in the thoughts that arise and in your abilities.
..and given that we live in a society where we interact with (apparent) others, we have to behave AS IF we have control.
Ok, respond to this and we will go on from here..

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hello Vince!
Hope this message finds you well and I appreciate your reply.

Good morning Barry, Sorry about the delay in replying.

No Worries. In waiting for a reply, I clicked on your links and started reading some of the 1ness.info stuff. Some of it felt like I needed to be reminded-- 8. You have been living your whole life thinking that you are in control. The truth is that you are not in control. More exactly, there is no “you” to be in control.

From reading the rest of your post, I can see that you have fallen into a bit of an existential hole.

Looking at it now, yes, they are all centered around some sort of existential fear. I agree with that observation.

Now this is not to say that we are entirely controlled by circumstances. Determinism is as much a delusion as control.
Your experience and your skill, your nature and your habits all play a part in the thoughts that arise and in your abilities.
..and given that we live in a society where we interact with (apparent) others, we have to behave AS IF we have control.

This makes sense to me, except for the “(apparent) others.” I have yet to see this… which I’m guessing is the whole thing of non-duality...seeing that there is no separation. I still feel very separate. There are things and then there is me. And maybe your next question would be what is the me I’m referring to? I feel like I’m like some roaming eye that can move around in the body. A point of consciousness that can feel this and feel that or watch this or watch a thought, experience a feeling, etc.

I noticed I said feel like x… didn’t say I am x… I of course can’t see this roaming eye (sounds dumb typing out I’m a roaming eye) but I can’t see the back of my head but I know I have a back to my head.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

except for the “(apparent) others.” I have yet to see this

Just as you will continue to experience a self while recognizing that it is an illusion, your will continue to experience others as separate. To appreciate this as an illusion, let's start with the puzzle; If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there will it make a sound?

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hi Vince,

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there will it make a sound?

I read Jed McKenna's book, Spritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing, and this question was asked in the book... and because of that I can't UNread what Jed said, but I also loved the answer which was something like: Stating that there is a tree and it falls in a forest than that implies the tree and the forest exists, therefore the tree does make a sound if. That answer resonated with me. It exists therefore the sound too exists.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry, This is fairly basic biology. When the tree falls, it vibrates the air. These vibrations hit the ear and cause (eventually) nerve signals to arrive in the brain. It is the brain that translates them into an experience we call sound.
Likewise for all of the senses. The brain has an experience and projects it onto something that we call the objective world. Our entire experience of the world including other people happens in our brain.
The way that the brain interprets the sense input (which includes input from thoughts) depends on life experiences as well as physical propensities. Your habits (conditioned responses), as well as your preferences, influence the nature of your perceptions.

What is your take on this?

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hi Vince.
Appreciate your patience and continue probing into this matter.

The brain has an experience and projects it onto something that we call the objective world. Our entire experience of the world including other people happens in our brain.
The way that the brain interprets the sense input (which includes input from thoughts) depends on life experiences as well as physical propensities. Your habits (conditioned responses), as well as your preferences, influence the nature of your perceptions.

What is your take on this?

Yes, I agree with this. You touched upon it with “physical propensities”, but it reminded me of a video I saw of someone who developed a brain tumor and lost vision in one of their eyes. This person’s “objective world,” as you called it, changed forever because the brain could no longer function as it used to.



Back to the tree falling in the woods. Even though I still agree with my answer, I did give it much thought last night. I realized my answer came from the mind… just like you said, habit, conditioned response, preference, influence, etc.
If I were to start stripping away some of the mind’s function, say memory, what would I say? If I didn’t have a memory of “the answer” or memory of ever hearing the question, what would I say? Hard to fathom really but the first thing that would jump out would be “I don’t know.”

How could anyone tell if a tree makes a sound if no one is around to hear it? No one is around to report back. There is no experience of the event ever occurring. Who could even tell the tree fell? No one is around to hear it but is someone around to see it? If someone who cannot hear witnessed a tree falling than they could quite easily say they saw a tree fall but it didn’t make a sound. It circles back to our brain has an experience and projects it back onto our objective world.

Looking forward to our next communication.

Barry