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[PankajDixit]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The notion of 'I" is generated by thoughts. It is a post-facto effect. Thoughts can appear on their own or as a result a direct experience of perception like seeing, hearing, tasting etc. All sufferings are at the level of 'I'. Without 'I' it is impossible to suffer Seeing clearly that there is no real "I" is liberation.

What are you looking for at LU?
I understand the concepts and perhaps I experience also from time to time but I am not sure. On a worldly level I am quite happy and living my life quite happily without any serious sufferings or desires 99% of the time. I would like to confirm and settle that I already know and experience the Truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would love to bounce off ideas with another person who can understand and appreciate the same language of self-exploration. I would like to understand my doubts which arise from time to time. And I would like to compare notes with people having similar experiences and similar way of looking at life.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started reading Osho from very early days of my life. My father and mother were Osho Sanyasins. I continued to read, J Krishnamurhty, U G Krishnamurhty, Nisragadutta , Vednanta comentaries and various Indian sages. I regularly attend satsang of Mooji and his disciples in India.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to walk with you the way to see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to be with, during our dialogue :

Be in the forum once per day : it is a commitment indicator or a motivation factor

Be honest with yourself when you give answers to my questions : it means you give the answer after having SEEN not from what you know or read in books. What do I mean by SEEN ? It relates with direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching (sensations). All other stuff is though stuff.

Leave aside all books, audios, videos about spirituality, duality, ...

Learn how to use the quote function.

Read the disclaimer text.

If you agree with all of these, we can start the journey.

Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Thanks Warissem for your message.
I am sorry for being late in replying as the LU server was not responding for a couple of days - it could be some technical problem from my end as well.

I agree with the conditions mentioned and am ready to begin the journey.

I have not been regular to the forum so far, but once started communicating I will surely visit at least once a day.

I read about the quote function but am not sure when and where to use it. Perhaps it will become clear during the journey.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards.

Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi

That's OK for the forum. There was no access during 2 or 3 days.

Now about your concern here, what is missing?

What are you at, about this non duality stuff ?

What are you expecting through the seeking ?

Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

I contemplated on your questions and tried to answer as honestly as possible but the language looks like a limitation. Here is what I could come up with:

Now about your concern here, what is missing?

While this question looks simple, when I started to answer honestly, I find it very difficult to find what is missing. It looked as if nothing is missing. But I have a sense that something is missing even though I am not sure what it is. Perhaps I have an intellectual understanding of non-duality and at some level want to experience it but I also understand that ‘I’ can’t find our experience it. “I" would like to drop the identification with personal ‘I’ but “I" also understand that “I” can never drop “I”. So what is missing is going beyond this point.

What are you at, about this non duality stuff ?

I understand it intellectually that - everything is one, a unity a singularity. There can’t be anything else. I am not sure how to experience it or if at all it is possible to experience it. In any case who is there to experience? If it is experiencing itself as ‘me’ then nothing is missing because that is what it is doing.

What are you expecting through the seeking ?

I am expecting to go beyond this point of intellectual understanding if there is any such point. I am hoping to dis-identify with personal “I” so that the nondual reality becomes evident.

Thanks for your help. I truly appreciate it.
Regards.
Pankaj.

[PankajDixit]

Correction:
Perhaps I have an intellectual understanding of non-duality and at some level want to experience it but I also understand that ‘I’ can’t experience it.

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

While this question looks simple, when I started to answer honestly, I find it very difficult to find what is missing. It looked as if nothing is missing.

Here you are really observing what is going on. There are no words. Yes, nothing is missing. The eye cannot see itself.

But I have a sense that something is missing even though I am not sure what it is. Perhaps I have an intellectual understanding of non-duality and at some level want to experience it but I also understand that ‘I’ can’t find our experience it. “I" would like to drop the identification with personal ‘I’ but “I" also understand that “I” can never drop “I”. So what is missing is going beyond this point.

Here is the chatting mind in action : do you see clearly that it is a train of thoughts ?

I understand it intellectually that - everything is one, a unity a singularity. There can’t be anything else. I am not sure how to experience it or if at all it is possible to experience it. In any case who is there to experience? If it is experiencing itself as ‘me’ then nothing is missing because that is what it is doing.

Experience of what is sought, already IS. It cannot be otherwise. Only beliefs seem to veil this experience : the belief in a me, in “I am the body”, …

I am expecting to go beyond this point of intellectual understanding if there is any such point. I am hoping to dis-identify with personal “I” so that the nondual reality becomes evident.

The goal of this forum is to make you see that there is no separate self.

Perhaps I have an intellectual understanding of non-duality and at some level want to experience it but I also understand that ‘I’ can’t experience it.

You are close to it. What is this "I" which wants to experience ? Look and describe it for me.

Thanks for your help. I truly appreciate it.

You are welcome.

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

Here you are really observing what is going on. There are no words. Yes, nothing is missing. The eye cannot see itself.

Yes, but this seems to take effort and doesn't seem natural. Naturally I tend to flow with the thoughts. Isn't "nothing is missing' also a thought? Who is having that thought? Or can thought exist/appear without a thinker? Perhaps the answer is, yes but it is not a realization yet. It is still a thought.

Here is the chatting mind in action: do you see clearly that it is a train of thoughts ?

Yes, I can see that it is chatting mind in action and it is a train of thoughts. I somehow can not separate myself from the thoughts. Even what I am writing now is 'thoughts'. I understand that even 'I' is a thought but there is no getting away from it. It looks very real - very 'me'.

Experience of what is sought, already IS. It cannot be otherwise. Only beliefs seem to veil this experience : the belief in a me, in “I am the body”,

What I am seeking is 'no me' and that sounds like an impossibility. I know (intellectually) that there is 'no me' already. Yes, perhaps "I am the body/mind" is a belief but who is having this belief, and who can drop this belief?

The goal of this forum is to make you see that there is no separate self.

I am completely aligned with this goal.

You are close to it. What is this "I" which wants to experience ? Look and describe it for me.

What "I" wants to experience is its own absence which is absurd and impossible. What "I" wants to happen is to disappear ( in a sense, to die) and it has no clue what will it look like when that happens - and it can never have. This is where I am stuck.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Yes, but this seems to take effort and doesn't seem natural. Naturally I tend to flow with the thoughts. Isn't "nothing is missing' also a thought? Who is having that thought? Or can thought exist/appear without a thinker? Perhaps the answer is, yes but it is not a realization yet. It is still a thought.

I recommend this exercise for you :
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Yes, I can see that it is chatting mind in action and it is a train of thoughts. I somehow can not separate myself from the thoughts. Even what I am writing now is 'thoughts'. I understand that even 'I' is a thought but there is no getting away from it. It looks very real - very 'me'.

The word “I” is not what is reading these words, do you see that?

What I am seeking is 'no me' and that sounds like an impossibility. I know (intellectually) that there is 'no me' already. Yes, perhaps "I am the body/mind" is a belief but who is having this belief, and who can drop this belief?

Good questions. I want you to give answers to them in the next post. The questions must be answered after having looked at direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations).

What "I" wants to experience is its own absence which is absurd and impossible. What "I" wants to happen is to disappear ( in a sense, to die) and it has no clue what will it look like when that happens - and it can never have. This is where I am stuck.

I said what is this “I” ? How does it looks like ? Look and describe it for me.

Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

I did the experiment you suggested and here are my answers:

Where are they coming from and going to?

They are originating in me and dissolving in me. In other words it seems like I am taking the shape of the thoughts and keep doing it continuously as one thought merges into another.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Sometimes they are generated by an external stimulation like a sound, sometimes from a memory, Sometimes they come from my intention - which itself is a thought. For example when think to answer this question, I need to have this intention and that gives rise to a thought in the form of an answer.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Sometimes, yes. As in the previous example, I make an intention to answer a question and a different thought appear.

Can you predict your next thought?

Usually not. They are linked to each other and one thought gives rise to another one.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I can have the intention to do so, but they don’t always follow my intention. In fact, the very intention to have only pleasant thoughts gives rise to the opposite thoughts

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No. Any intention not to have any particular thought has an inbuilt mechanism to generate that very thought.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Yes, I can have an intention at least to begin with a kind of thought. Soon that thought converts into another one which may or may not be of the same kind.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. As I said earlier, any attempt to prevent a thought gives rise to it.

And now to your other comments.

The word “I” is not what is reading these words, do you see that?

Yes, reading the words is a direct experience, which is this body’s function. Interpretting them and giving them meaning is thoughts or mind in action.

Good questions. I want you to give answers to them in the next post. The questions must be answered after having looked at direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations).

Somehow there is a belief that someone (I) is having the direct experiences. I am not able to answer where this belief comes from. Perhaps it is generated out of direct experience itself over a long period of time. All other beliefs seem to come from this basic belief of 'I' having the direct experiences. I am not so sure if it is only a belief or perhaps someone indeed is having direct experience though it may not be a separate self. In other words there a live presence which is enabling these direct experiences.

I said what is this “I” ? How does it looks like ? Look and describe it for me.

As a direct experience, it is not found. It is the one having direct experiences. And as I said above it could be just a belief but I am not sure of it, being only a belief.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

From now, our dialog will be based on direct experience. Direct experience is what is known through the five senses : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations). Example : what is the color of the sky. There are two cases of answers. The first : you give an answer as a guessing or through what you read in the meteo news. The second : you get up and go to the window, open it and look at the sky, then give the answer through what you have seen. Direct experience is about the second case.

Go for a walk in a park or wherever and report down all what is going on during your walk.

Thank you

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem
Okay, so here is my report on my walk this morning.

I started my walk with the intention to keep my attention to my direct experience. I wanted to put on my headphone to listen to one of my favourite podcasts but somehow the phone data network was not working. I tried for some time and then put it away and started enjoying the nice weather. The weather is cool and wet and feels pleasant. There is not much breeze. There have been rains last night and the roads are wet. There are small water loggings on the road so I have to be careful when walking. I saw an old friend of mine who was away from the city for some time. We greeted each other and decided to walk together. He walks a little faster than my usual speed so I had to increase my speed. I inquired about what he had been up to in the last months and he described. We also enquired about each other’s families. After some time this friend’s walk was over so he went back and I was walking alone again. There are red flowers on the road and a lot of green leaves too, because of last night’s rains. I saw some liter on the road which is not an unusual sight in Indian cities but it was a bit unusual within an apartment complex. I walked for about 40 minutes like this and went back.

Regards.
Pankaj

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

OK, great. Now, write again what you said without using the words "I", "me", "my", "mine", etc ...

Then let me know about the changes in your feelings or whatever.

Best wishes

Warissem

[PankajDixit]

Hi Warissem,

This body started its walk with a noticing of an intention in this mind to give attention to direct experience. There was a desire to put on headphones to listen to what is considered a favorite podcast by this mind but somehow the phone data network was not working. There was an effort by the body but after some time, a thought appeared to put it away and to enjoy the nice weather. The weather is cool and wet and feels pleasant. There is not much breeze. There have been rains last night and the roads are wet. There are small water loggings on the road and a thought appeared in the mind to be more careful. There was seeing of a person who this mind considers as an old friend and who was away from the city for some time.
Both the persons greeted each other and decided to walk together. The other person walks a little faster than this body's usual speed so this body had to increase its speed. There was an inquiry by this body about what the other person had been up to in the last months and he described. Both persons also enquired about each other’s families. After some time this friend’s walk was over so he went back and this body was walking alone again. There are red flowers on the road and a lot of green leaves too, because of last night’s rains. There was sight of some liter on the road which is not an unusual sight in Indian cities but it was a bit unusual within an apartment complex. This body walked for about 40 minutes like this and then went back.



While describing this way, there is a thought that the whole experience can be described without a need to have an “I” or having an “I” perspective. However, another feeling or sense is that there is still a witness who is describing or noticing this experience. And that does feel like I. It can also be said that there is witnessing happening without any I. But all this still looks like an intellectual exercise.

Regards.
Pankaj.

[warissem]

Hi Pankaj

Good job. Slowly but surely.

This body started its walk with a noticing of an intention in this mind to give attention to direct experience.

Is there “someone” noticing ?
Look at “intention” and describe it for me.
Do you see a mind ? if so, describe it for me.

While describing this way, there is a thought that the whole experience can be described without a need to have an “I” or having an “I” perspective. However, another feeling or sense is that there is still a witness who is describing or noticing this experience. And that does feel like I. It can also be said that there is witnessing happening without any I. But all this still looks like an intellectual exercise.

It is not an intellectual exercise. You said “there is still a witness” then “ there is witnessing happening”. Do you see the difference between these two expressions ? Look deeply at the first expression :is there a witness there ? Look with your five senses. What do you see there ?

Warissem