The time has come

[Zoi]

Hi luchana

Let's look here
A thought believed can drive you crazy!
and here:
A thought can influence the way you feel

Ok I said it wrong
A thought believed can drive the body crazy
Or a thought can influence the way the body feels

Let thoughts bring a picture of a lemon. A juicy yellow lemon. The lemon is slised. Now taste the imaginary slice of lemon.

And notice who is it that reacts - you or the body?

The body reacts purely to this imaginary lemon

And now notice the same way where is a me?
Notice the thoughts that are coming about me, notice the reaction of the body linked to these thoughts and look for a REAL me.
Is there a real me ? Where?

There is no real me . Only thoughts about a me
Now let me tell a story
I am full of hateful thoughts and I react aggressively and kill people or animals
I came here in lu with the expectation that I will stop killing if I see it. And I will stop suffering from guilt
Eventually it is seen that there is no one killing. It is just happening. What changed? Nothing. The body continues getting angry and keeps killing.
Does the body now enjoy killing with out guilt because there is no one there to feel guilty? The sense of me doesn’t arise the moment of killing . It arises after with the thought “what have I done” or “I am a bad person” the moment the judgment starts . If the conditioning is self hate every bodily reaction is out of this hate till it transformed to self love. These kind of thoughts are egoistic deep routed and can not be un routed just because there is no me there . Maybe I miss something. I don’t know
This is how I see it.

Love
Olga

[Luchana]

Hi Olga,

A thought believed can drive the body crazy
Or a thought can influence the way the body feels

But what is it that can believe in thought?
Who or what believes in thought?
Where is the believER?
Where is its EXACT location?

There is no real me . Only thoughts about a me

So is this an experience of a me?
Or it is an experience of a thought?

I am full of hateful thoughts and I react aggressively and kill people or animals
I came here in lu with the expectation that I will stop killing if I see it. And I will stop suffering from guilt
Eventually it is seen that there is no one killing. It is just happening. What changed? Nothing. The body continues getting angry and keeps killing.
Does the body now enjoy killing with out guilt because there is no one there to feel guilty? The sense of me doesn’t arise the moment of killing . It arises after with the thought “what have I done” or “I am a bad person” the moment the judgment starts . If the conditioning is self hate every bodily reaction is out of this hate till it transformed to self love. These kind of thoughts are egoistic deep routed and can not be un routed just because there is no me there . Maybe I miss something. I don’t know

This is an assumption not real exeperience?

We are not dealing with assumptions and imagination here. And we are not dealing with hateful thoughts.
We are looking for the row reality.

Is there something or someone thinking all these thoughts?

And something very important:

Is there an expectation that some "bad" or uncomfortable feelings and thoughts must desolved after the seeing that there is no separate self?

Is there an expectation that all the guilt, hate and so forth will disappear with a magic stick?

Much love,
Luchana




So all these

[Zoi]

Hi luchana

But what is it that can believe in thought?

When I ask this question I can not find anything other than thoughts

Who or what believes in thought?

It’s a thought saying that I believe the thought

Where is the believER?

The believer is a thought again

Where is its EXACT location?

There is no location only concepts about the believer that can believe thoughts. So the believer or something believing the thoughts doesn’t exist.

There is no real me . Only thoughts about a me

So is this an experience of a me?
Or it is an experience of a thought?

This is an experience of a thought

This is an assumption not real exeperience?

No it was exaggerated .

Is there an expectation that some "bad" or uncomfortable feelings and thoughts must desolved after the seeing that there is no separate self?

I have dropped this expectation long ago. Maybe there is the belief that after seeing no self I can see thoughts with more clarity for what they are, not real .

Is there an expectation that all the guilt, hate and so forth will disappear with a magic stick?

No I don’t expect that anymore. For me these qualities are considered self centered and when they are present it seems that the illusion of separate self is present

Thank you
Love Olga

[Luchana]

Hi Olga,

you did a good looking.

I have dropped this expectation long ago. Maybe there is the belief that after seeing no self I can see thoughts with more clarity for what they are, not real .

Once the iilsuion/thoughts is seen through (not real) this doesn't mean that they will stop appearing.
It just need to be look at again and again.
Just like in the desert - the mirage do not stop appearing once you've seen that it is only a mirage with not even one drop of water.

So do not worry, clarity comes with looking. Again and again, many little moments through the day.

No I don’t expect that anymore. For me these qualities are considered self centered and when they are present it seems that the illusion of separate self is present

When some of these qualities are experienced look -
do they belong to someone?
IS there an owner of sadness? Or guilt?
Or it is just sadness appearing for no one.

Much love,
Luchana

[Zoi]

Hi luchana

You know, the most powerful belief was that there is something believing the thoughts. Not particularly me but something. Mind was resisting to admit that there is nothing believing the thoughts. That there is no believing, only thoughts about that.
It helped that I had to be honest to you. This was felt as a release .

Once the iilsuion/thoughts is seen through (not real) this doesn't mean that they will stop appearing.
It just need to be look at again and again.
Just like in the desert - the mirage do not stop appearing once you've seen that it is only a mirage with not even one drop of water.

So do not worry, clarity comes with looking. Again and again, many little moments through the day.

Yes I have seen that happening the last 3 years with ilonas help.
It’s just happens slowly or fast considering the mental state that I was facing when I met her . I was thinking that I must miss something because I had the expectation that the mirage would be more easy to be recognized after seeing no self.

Ilona some time ago in a session mentioned Jeff fosters health issue. I did not check him until yesterday that it happened to read his posts about that. I am grateful for his sincerity and for exposing his mental state. I realized that no one is truly enlightened and when difficult situations arise the sense of self with all the wants needs fears desires arises with them .

When some of these qualities are experienced look -
do they belong to someone?
IS there an owner of sadness? Or guilt?
Or it is just sadness appearing for no one.

The most unacceptable emotion was the explosive anger. Even though it was appearing for no one it kept been unacceptable.
After reading that story , I can now say that I am grateful for these “negative “ qualities .
You can not get hide from them. But you can get hide for a long time behind “positive “ qualities .

Thank you
Love Olga

[Luchana]

Hi Olga.

again sorry, but there is a problem with the forum.

Hope everything will be ok soon.

You know, the most powerful belief was that there is something believing the thoughts. Not particularly me but something. Mind was resisting to admit that there is nothing believing the thoughts. That there is no believing, only thoughts about that.
It helped that I had to be honest to you. This was felt as a release .

It is so good that you can see that.

Yes I have seen that happening the last 3 years with ilonas help.
It’s just happens slowly or fast considering the mental state that I was facing when I met her . I was thinking that I must miss something because I had the expectation that the mirage would be more easy to be recognized after seeing no self.

Seemingly it takes time and there is a deepening. And the mirage needs to be seen as a mirage again and again for what it is - just a mirage.

The most unacceptable emotion was the explosive anger. Even though it was appearing for no one it kept been unacceptable.
After reading that story , I can now say that I am grateful for these “negative “ qualities .
You can not get hide from them. But you can get hide for a long time behind “positive “ qualities .

Yes, and again look at these quesion directly and see it for yourself:

Does the anger belong to someone?
Who or whar claims that the anger is mine?



Much love,
Luchana

[Zoi]

Hi luchana

again sorry, but there is a problem with the forum.

No problem . There is no hurry here

Does the anger belong to someone?
Who or whar claims that the anger is mine?

The anger belongs to no one.
There is no claiming that is mine.
I see it as an illness. If you are ill you go to the doctor. Even if it is not your illness . Same way when anger appears it needs attention and caring
Love
Olga

[Luchana]

Hi Olga,

The anger belongs to no one.
There is no claiming that is mine.

Lovely.

I see it as an illness. If you are ill you go to the doctor. Even if it is not your illness . Same way when anger appears it needs attention and caring

Is there someone making a sensation (an anger or anything else) to appears?
Is there a control over it?
Is there a control over whatever sensation appears?

Is there someone making attention and caring?
Or attention and caring just happen?

Much love,
Luchana

[Zoi]

Hi luchana

Is there someone making a sensation (an anger or anything else) to appears?

No , they just appear

Is there a control over it?
Is there a control over whatever sensation appears?

Unfortunately there no control over them.

Is there someone making attention and caring?
Or attention and caring just happen?

Hmmm, even though I know that everything is happening , there is a personal sense in making attention and caring or feeling
responsible for this character

Thank you
Olga

[Luchana]

Hi Olga,

you did a very good looking.

Is there a control over it?

Is there a control over whatever sensation appears?
Unfortunately there no control over them.

Lovely.
Does this realisation bring resistance, fear, releif?
Both? Or neither?
What's the feeling to see that you have no control?

Was there ever control over any sensation?

Was there ever control over anything?

Hmmm, even though I know that everything is happening , there is a personal sense in making attention and caring or feeling
responsible for this character

All rught, let's see.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?


Take your time, do not rush. Approach it gently.

Much love,
Luchana

[Zoi]

Hi Luchana
Sorry for the delay

Does this realisation bring resistance, fear, releif?
Both? Or neither?

I dont know, its not new realisation. If there was control over sensations I suppose everyone would choose to have plesant sensations and there would be less suffering.

What's the feeling to see that you have no control?

Besides sensations, having no control in life brings a relief and peace of mind.

Was there ever control over any sensation?

Was there ever control over anything?

there is no control and never was

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Attention moves by itself , no focuser

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?

No nothing controlls it.

What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

I noticed that when the focus is on the breath without thoughts appearing the attention is like everywhere. to the breath and to the sounds heard. When thoughts appear that create a story it is like the attention is so focused there , that there is no presence . Thought is not in control of attention but some thoughts attract full attention and there is a lost in thinking.

Thank you
Olga

[Zoi]

Hi Luchana
Sorry for the delay

Does this realisation bring resistance, fear, releif?
Both? Or neither?

I dont know, its not new realisation. If there was control over sensations I suppose everyone would choose to have plesant sensations and there would be less suffering.

What's the feeling to see that you have no control?

Besides sensations, having no control in life brings a relief and peace of mind.

Was there ever control over any sensation?

Was there ever control over anything?

there is no control and never was

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Attention moves by itself , no focuser

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?

No nothing controlls it.

What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

I noticed that when the focus is on the breath without thoughts appearing the attention is like everywhere. to the breath and to the sounds heard. When thoughts appear that create a story it is like the attention is so focused there , that there is no presence . Thought is not in control of attention but some thoughts attract full attention and there is a lost in thinking.

Thank you
Olga

ps can we speak about feeling responsible for the character?

[Luchana]

Hi Olga,

you did a very good looking.

I noticed that when the focus is on the breath without thoughts appearing the attention is like everywhere. to the breath and to the sounds heard. When thoughts appear that create a story it is like the attention is so focused there , that there is no presence . Thought is not in control of attention but some thoughts attract full attention and there is a lost in thinking.

Exactly.
And is there control over story?
Who or what is responsabile?
Does the story real?
Was the story ever real?

And who or what can be lost in thinking?
[/i]

ps can we speak about feeling responsible for the character?

Yes, sure. What about this feeling responsabile for the character?

Is there responsabilty for this feeling?
Who or what can be responsabile for the character?
Does freedom responsabile?

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Olga,

you did a very good looking.

I noticed that when the focus is on the breath without thoughts appearing the attention is like everywhere. to the breath and to the sounds heard. When thoughts appear that create a story it is like the attention is so focused there , that there is no presence . Thought is not in control of attention but some thoughts attract full attention and there is a lost in thinking.

Exactly.
And is there control over story?
Who or what is responsabile?
Does the story real?
Was the story ever real?

And who or what can be lost in thinking?

ps can we speak about feeling responsible for the character?

Yes, sure. What about responsabile for the character?

Who or what can be responsabile for the character?
Does freedom responsabile?

Much love,
Luchana

[Zoi]

Hi luchana

And is there control over story?
Who or what is responsabile?
Does the story real?
Was the story ever real?

No there is no control over the story . Nothing is responsible, it just happens
The story is imagination

And who or what can be lost in thinking?

Maybe it is not correct to say lost in thinking.
It is full attention to something . It may be a mind story or some other task that absorbs full attention . And it is happening by itself

Yes, sure. What about responsabile for the character?

Who or what can be responsabile for the character?

Nothing is responsible for the character. I just noticed that this sense of responsibility that arises sometimes is actually a feeling of shame about the character.

Does freedom responsabile?

I don’t get this question.

Thank you
Olga