Time to see through the illusion

[vegansatori]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I've read in so many places that the self is only an illusion cobbled together from automatic mental talk, images, bodily sensations, etc. I believe it logically, and I've seen tiny glimpses of the space when it seems to drop for an instant. But the illusion always comes back, and I haven't seen through it to the extent that it remains stable.

What are you looking for at LU?
The final push to help see through the illusion after decades of meditation practice, and having read so much. I feel like a lot has been going on lately where the façade is starting to crack a little, but there's always a sense of fear or resistance or lethargy that derails the investigation. An outside personalized push feels like the right thing at the right time. Thanks!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I've read your books, and I get the idea of self-enquiry. I've tried it many times using many methods, but it still hasn't fully worked. So I'm hoping the guide can help with whatever triggering push there might be to finally help the spell to break. Also, the discipline of having an outside person keeping me on track and devoted to the search feels like it would be extremely helpful given that, as I mentioned in my last answer, that fear, resistance, and lethargy keep intervening. In the Gateless Gatecrashers it seems like a lot of people got it after an exchange that hit them just right, almost like the effect of a personalized Zen koan.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
About 20 years of on-and-off meditation practice. At times it was very strict and passionate. Other times, more mundane. I've run the gamut from various forms of Buddhist study and meditation, to Advaita Vedanta, to purely secular mindfulness, to Sam Harris' Waking Up App, including Loch Kelly's work, as well as Douglas Harding's Headless Way, and many more things in between. Most recent was my introduction to Shinzen Young and the Unified Mindfulness approach. I did a 5-day Zoom retreat with them last week. I took it very seriously, and had some amazing experiences during and after it. It was the catalyst for me finally signing up to LU after having considered it for at least a year or two now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like. Sorry for the long wait. That ebbs and flows here.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you?

What time zone are you in, please?

[Anastacia42]

Hello,

Are you still there & wanting to be guided here?

Thanks,

[vegansatori]

Hi Stacy,
I'm so sorry that I just saw this!
I thought we would get an email or some kind of notification when we received a comment, so stopped checking in after a while.

Are you still free? If not, I understand. I wish I'd seen this sooner!

To answer your questions in case you are still free, or if this will still be applicable to another guide:

Yes, I understand all those guidelines, and I'm good with posting daily.

How will life change?

I honestly don't know. I've heard and read so many conflicting variations on what to expect that I'm more curious about the result than expectant of a specific outcome. What I would appreciate is having the tendency to get caught up in egoic interests minimized. Truthfully, I'm very fortunate right now, and life is mostly good. I'm incredibly grateful, so I'm not anticipating major job overhauls or anything like that. I live an austere, but relaxed life right now, and I'm hoping it will continue.

How will you change?

I guess the things that would be most appreciated would be less egoic interest in certain hobbies or goals. Less contraction in the face of criticism or praise, and less belief in the validity of worries about the future. I try to engage my intellectual understanding that there's no self as a kind of selfless-self-talk to relax when these things arise. But it sounds like there's a point after seeing it that causes it to be an automatic response. Like a permanent state of function rather than needing to constantly rationalize it. Is that correct?

What will be different?

Similar to my previous answer, I guess the most I could ask for is a more awake, present engagement with life without being lost in the ruminations and fantasies that seem to create this real-feeling persona.

What is missing?

I guess, since I wrote my initial request, things have been getting better in life. It's not that something is missing externally. But there's still grief and sadness, anhedonia, and emptiness (and not the Buddhist kind) that come and go in waves. And I understand that after seeing, emotions still come and go. But from what I gather there's less attachment to the emotions. Again, at this point I need to use rationalization and other mindfulness techniques I've picked up over the years to help put some distance between "me" (whatever that is) and the negative emotional states. And thankfully they've been quite effective over the years! But it would be very helpful to not have to constantly remember to do so. Especially since negative emotional states have a weird way of blocking the memory that relief is possible until they've had their fun for a little while.

What would you like for me to call you?

You can call me Todd, thanks!

What time zone are you in, please?

I'm in EST.

Again, I'm so sorry for this late response! I'll start checking back every day just in case you're still there, or in case there are any other comments. Does it ever send notification emails or texts?

Thank you again for reaching out, and have a great day!
-Todd

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Todd!

Yes, you should get an email as il. Do you see the c little wrench icon at the top or bottom of the page?

Click it. If it says "Subscribe Topic" click that & add subscribe. That should have been done for you. If it already says "Unsubscribe Topic" you should have gotten an email & something else is wrong.

I can blame you for that (or anything but that's another story & we'll get there). Sorry that happened but he's I can still take another client.

it sounds like there's a point after seeing it that causes it to be an automatic response. Like a permanent state of function rather than needing to constantly rationalize it. Is that correct?

Yes, mostly, until you find unquestioned untrue beliefs you're still holding & then you know what to do - question the belief.

Your expectations are mostly reasonable.

Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be? That self is a made up story?

If you can't get the "subscribe" turned on. I can ask an admin to do it for you. It should have already been done.

Loving

[vegansatori]

Good morning, Stacy!

Thanks so much for getting right back to me after the confusion.
Okay, I went to the wrench and clicked on the Subscribe option, so I'll see if I start getting emails.
I went into my profile last night, and it said that I had no subscriptions, but I didn't realize that's what it was referring to.
This shows up in the list now, so hopefully that'll make the difference.
I also see that I have the "Notify me when a reply is posted" option checked below the message, but I didn't get any notifications for your last response either. I'll look more into it if the Subscribe option doesn't work.

I'm thrilled you're still able to take me on, so thanks again for that!

Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be? That self is a made up story?

It's strange because when I read that sentence, though I've read and heard and thought it a million times before, I noticed a tightness in the throat, increased salivation, and mild fear response with a little light-headedness. Basically like the fear of trying a new drug or something where the outcome is unpredictable. Like there is a self-preservation program that's kicking in to keep "me" from treading into dangerous territory. What's particularly strange about that is that, like I said in the past message, I generally use the idea of selflessness as a way to calm anxiety and stress. But right now something about it feels like stepping close to a high precipice.

Thanks again, and I look forward to working with you!
-Todd

[vegansatori]

Hi again,
I realized that I also forgot to mention one of the main reasons for wanting to do this now is because I'm hoping to get my mindfulness teaching certification next year. And I feel like it would be very helpful to have a deeper personal experience of the goal so that I'm not just teaching from theoretical knowledge, but rather by lived experience. And so far, all of the years of meditation haven't quite gotten me there yet. I would like to help share these tools with others, but I want to be as effective at it as possible and also not lead people astray.

Thanks very much again!
Todd

[Anastacia42]

Hi Todd

You're welcome. This is great!

Yes, that question checks for fear. Thanks for expressing what came up so clearly. Also, there's a lot of awareness in those replies. That will help.

I love it that your want to teach mindfulness from a place of lived experience. That IS much better than what most teachers do. Same with most religions- lots of Buddhists, but few Buddhas.

Maybe you'll chose to guide part time here at LU.

Okay, read this next bit carefully.



Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[vegansatori]

Hi Stacy!
The email notification system worked!!! I just got the alert. Yay!

Thank you. I agree completely with the "lot of Buddhists, but too few Buddhas" comment. I'm not comfortable teaching something unless I feel a real mastery of it. And this seems like a large gap in my experiential understanding.

After this I do hope to be able to give back by leading others on LU, but one thing at a time, I guess! :-)

Yes, your sock analogy is perfectly clear. I've tried variations of direct looking like this over the years, but so far there have only been temporary glimpses. But I know there's something there to be found! (Or, I guess, not found is more accurate.)

Like one of the more recent experiences that really struck me was when I was walking around the block, and I felt the wind on my face, my feet on the ground, my cell phone in my pocket against my leg, and my hands moving at my sides. But there was the realization that everything in between was sort of a void. Like there were just relevant sensations, and maybe random thoughts that were spontaneously generated, but they were also echoing in a vacuum. And I had a really nice period of just being this empty body.

I guess the issue is that as soon as I get a feeling of selflessness, or some "headless" kind of sensation, there's a contraction that happens right after, kind of putting "me" back behind my eyes, tensing up the muscles in my face and chest, and looking to categorize the experience, reference it, check its validity, create a historical record out of it. And then it's lost because the ego/self program immediately comes back online. So even where you list Thoughts Arising, but not their content, I can experience them from a detached way, but there's still a subtle sense of self that lingers as another observer, looking at those thoughts and noticing that it didn't create or choose them. And then there's that infinite regress where there always seems to be someone looking at the looker.

Sorry if this is too much of a response to no actual question.

Thank you again for everything!
-Todd

[Anastacia42]

Hi Todd,

Great! Your issue is pretty clear

I guess the issue is that as soon as I get a feeling of selflessness, or some "headless" kind of sensation, there's a contraction that happens right after, kind of putting "me" back behind my eyes, tensing up the muscles in my face and chest, and looking to categorize the experience, reference it, check its validity, create a historical record out of it. And then it's lost because the ego/self program immediately comes back online.

Good -

feeling of selflessness, or some "headless" kind of sensation,

That sounds clear & like you do SEE. Good.

So, let's learn what that contraction means.

Can you remember a time when you lied to somebody you love? Scan your body for any Sensations. Describe them and report where you feel them.

Loving,

[vegansatori]

Hi!

Can you remember a time when you lied to somebody you love? Scan your body for any Sensations. Describe them and report where you feel them.

Wow, that's a potent feeling generator. First reactions are a hot flushed tingly feeling in my arms, chest, and face. A tensing/pulling up feeling in the throat, almost like I'm trying to pull in a double chin. There's a tightness and slight unease in the stomach. More tingles up the back of the neck. My breath in my mouth even feels warmer. It's a very unpleasant sensation. Like embarrassment, plus mild anxiety. There's a little chest tightness. A fear of being found out and a desperate feeling of wanting to change the subject. Also a hyper-self-awareness where I remember monitoring myself to see if I was acting weird or if I was speaking in a way that was abnormal or a giveaway. And I can feel that again right now putting myself back in that situation. A slight furrowing and tension in the brow. There's also a subtle "drawing in" feeling in my chest and face. Almost like I'm trying to make myself smaller and hunch my shoulders a bit. But it's subtle and almost feels like more of an internal sensation if that makes sense. I know it must all be muscular, but it feels so mild that it masquerades as that "selfness". There was a surprising amount of sensations that arose in that scenario! Thanks!

Now that I'm observing it like this, I understand why, as a kid, my mom always told me that she could tell when I was lying, because my ears would turn red. LOL Obviously my whole face was flushing.

Also, to clarify on the "headless" thing from the previous message, I'd tried a bunch of Douglas Harding and Richard Lang's Headless Way exercises. And when I do them, it seems that I'm doing some kind of internal relaxation which gives that sensation. I've also found that it works if I mentally picture my body as having spontaneously dissolved. It leaves me feeling light and spacious for a brief period, but it doesn't last. I'm also not convinced that it's "The Headlessness" that I'm looking for instead of just a clam, relaxed, floaty state.

Thanks again for your time!
-Todd

[Anastacia42]

You're welcome Todd

Very good descriptions.

Could you say that many of the Sensations felt when you lie could collectively be called contractions? Heavy, tense?

Yes, I've figured you meant "Headless Way." I give that here sometimes. That spaciousness & internal relaxation is exactly right. Could those spacious feelings be called "expansive?" Light? Open?

That's what "truth" feels like. Yes, "truth" can be a slippery word. but your body knows.

So it *sounds* like you feel the "truth" of no self (expansive, relaxed) & then mind steps in & tries to shut it down with thinking & analyzing and untrue stories or lies (contraction, tension).

Is that about how it is?


Welcome to the body Sensations of truth & lying!

When you feel 'Headless" it feels "true." You can relax into it, ignore the lies, keep relaxing sensing. Stay with it. Relax any tight feelings & stay with relaxing into feeling no self. It's safe! We haven't lost anyone. yet. How dioe that feel?


Loving,

[vegansatori]

Good morning!

Could you say that many of the Sensations felt when you lie could collectively be called contractions? Heavy, tense?

Absolutely. They definitely create that same bodily self-contracting feeling. Years ago I heard a talk by Alan Watts where he said that what we think of as our self is really just a persistent tensing of the muscles. And I've always found that to be true. Mostly the contraction that creates that "selfness" is in my brow, around the eyes, the jaw, neck, and chest. Also a little pelvic floor and abdominal wall tension too. But those are the big places. And I can feel just that with the lying scenario.

Could those spacious feelings be called "expansive?" Light? Open?

I guess maybe. Light and open, definitely. Expansive... More so than my normal feeling of watching from inside the portholes of my face. But there still seems to be a subtle center in that experience. Like there's still a flagpole in my body, the flag is just missing for the moment. Does that make sense?

So it *sounds* like you feel the "truth" of no self (expansive, relaxed) & then mind steps in & tries to shut it down with thinking & analyzing and untrue stories or lies (contraction, tension).

Is that about how it is?

Yes! That's exactly how it is! Like right now, I went "headless" and there still seemed to be a self there, but it's clearly just tension around my eyes and maybe my upper back that are provoking that belief. But my brain kicked in to argue that because I feel it, the self must be there. And then a second layer stepped in, and there was a slight giddiness because there was an understanding that it's just the old illusion doing its thing. But in the process of relating that to you, the regular system comes back online and takes over. Like the process of using language, or intentionally verbalizing something, also proves that there's a consistent person/self in there who can communicate.

When you feel 'Headless" it feels "true." You can relax into it, ignore the lies, keep relaxing sensing. Stay with it. Relax any tight feelings & stay with relaxing into feeling no self. It's safe! We haven't lost anyone. yet. How dioe that feel?

Hahaha, thank you!
You're right, it does feel true, and easy, relaxing, and unburdened. My problems in sustaining that are from the thoughts which keep creating a return to selfness, even though there's a second voice who reminds that I didn't create those initial thoughts and that they are no more proof of a self than some random pain in my toe. And then when I move around, that seems to bring the self feeling back online too. Which is why I was never sure if the headlessness I was feeling was too much bodily relaxation and not enough deep seeing. What happens when you stand up and navigate a room? Or worse yet, have to talk to someone?

Also, do you recommend I do any specific kind of practice or enquiry between our interactions?

Thanks again!
-Todd

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Now that we've sorted out the technical glitches & helped with all of that Sensation & thinking, let's do some pointers.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[vegansatori]

Thanks so much for the quick reply!
I'm going to go make breakfast now, so I'll begin implementing this. It's similar to the Unified Mindfulness practice of See Hear Feel, but more detailed and granular. I like that.

I'll be back with observations later.
Thanks again, and have a great day until then!
-Todd