Waking up

[Bashopoem]

Hi Warissem,

Hope you're doing well. Thanks again for all your help! I think I'm there but want to talk it through to see if you have any other thoughts or guidance, or if there's anything I might be missing. Doubt is one of my vices.

As discussed, I can clearly see that the sense of self is based upon the "I" thoughts that arise about direct experiences and that in reality there is no separate self making choices or controlling things.

I'd previously gotten glimpses of no-self through meditation and direct pointing exercises, but always felt like I was missing something, like there was some last thread that needed to be cut. It appears that where I was holding on or stuck was related to how quickly the "I" thoughts arise after direct experiences. When I'm not concentrating or looking closely enough, this creates the FEELING of a self due to how deeply ingrained the habitual pattern is. Looking back, I see that I wasn't focusing long and hard enough for these glimpses to really sink in. I thought I was concentrating given how many years I've been sitting on the cushion, but apparently I hadn't really locked in to it deeply enough.

If I'm being fully transparent, part of me is a bit disappointed. I am aware that my ego is attached to seeking out extraordinary experiences and the sense-pleasures that arise in "wow" moments (e.g. drugs, thrill-seeking, sex, etc.). On top of this, I've probably done myself a huge disservice over the years by reading about other peoples' enlightenment/kensho experiences and hoping that the same thing was in store for me. I really wanted that wow moment. My meditation teacher has told me that for some people it's this big bang, earth-shaking kind of moment. For other people, it's more of a soft focusing over time and gentle understanding of "OK, so that's how it is..." For me it just feels kind of neutral. I was expecting to feel more of a sense of peace.

I'm wondering if it will be more about learning to deepen and sustain the seeing of no-self over time, and that's where the fruits will come to bear. As of right now, my relationship to my thoughts and emotions does not feel all that different. It's more clear now that the thoughts aren't "me," but they can be seductive/engaging nonetheless if I'm not paying attention. While I know there isn't really a separate self, the SENSE of self still arises as a deeply ingrained habit. I'd imagine that's because we need that construct to function in our everyday lives and it takes a long time and a lot of work to undo such habits.

What are your thoughts on all of this? Again, I appreciate your help.

Kind regards,

Bashopoem

[warissem]

Hi

Good. I will give a reply for what you said. Meanwhile, I invite you to watch this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCFdBsaWWE4

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

I watched the video. I'm a fan of Rupert. Thanks for the suggestion!

It's helpful to think about understanding from this staged perspective.

[warissem]

Hi

You are welcome.

The problem is all about expectations. When it is seen that there is no separate self, no separate entity, it is like seeing that Santa Klaus does not exist. Santa Klaus can show up but you know for sure that it is a guy disguised as Santa Klaus. Now, there is a knowing that there is no you, no separate self doing things. The thoughts about you and a separate self continue to arise but you know for sure that there are only thoughts without substance.

Disappointment happens when there are expectations which are not fulfilled or satisfied. Your expectations are about a special experience, a freeing experience all at once, the graal. Right now, there is a knowing that is impersonal which understands these words. There is no need for more than that. All the pointers are made to point to this knowing-ness. All appearances, thoughts, feelings, emotions, ego, I, me, you, all the concepts and images are known and right here right now, are not separate from the knowing of them. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not the end of the game. There are tendencies and conditionings which are operating. The clue is to look at the absence of you doing things during the daily activities. Observe attentively the activities : is there a separate self, an I, an entity involved? Look again and again.

The sense of self is an appearance : a thought, an image, a sensation, a feeling. It comes and goes. Yes, it takes a long time to undo the habits and the force d’inertie.

Have you seen in plain view that there is no you, no separate self OR is it an intellectual understanding ?

What is the difference before and after this dialog ?

Thank you

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply!

Have you seen in plain view that there is no you, no separate self OR is it an intellectual understanding ?

On one hand, I can see clearly that there is no controller of actions, thoughts, feelings, imagining, etc. That much is obvious. Throughout each day I've been trying to stay immersed in direct experience, feeling embodied. There are short moments where it is clear: there is only the pressure sensation of fingers hitting the keyboard, the sound of keys clacking, and the simultaneous knowing of it.

On the other hand, now that you ask the question, there are moments when doubt creeps in. Is it really just an intellectual understanding? I don't know. It could be? I am not sure I can tell the difference. I want to say that I've seen this in plain view, because in moments it feels like I have, but maybe I've just manufactured these experiences intellectually? I don't know.

What is the difference before and after this dialog ?

In moments of direct experience, the experience feels a little deeper in a way, more embodied. The knowing feels brighter. Otherwise, not much feels different.

[warissem]

Hi

There is doubt because your expectations about seeing that there is no you are not fulfilled. I want you to be clear about that through this exercise :

There are 3 labels, images or thoughts :

1. A stranger
2. A friend
3. You, put your name.

What are the differences between them as concepts, sensations, feelings, etc ... ?

Take a look to each of them : what do you see, what are the bodily sensations, the feelings, emotions, ...?

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

What are the differences between them as concepts, sensations, feelings, etc ... ?

Logically I know that each of these are just words, just labels, and that there is no difference between them. But, when I let go of my thoughts and do the exercise, this is what happens:

1. A stranger

I call to mind a stranger's face. At first there's a sense of neutrality. Then the thought, "you are me and I am you." Then a feeling of warmth. Then I start wishing them well.

2. A friend

I call to mind their face. A sense of familiarity. The memory of their laugh. A feeling of love arises. My mind feels brighter. Wishing them well, hoping they are happy.

3. Me

I call to mind my own face. At first a slight sense of sadness, a little bit of aversion, which then turns into compassion. A feeling of warmth. Thought a thought that wonders about the source of everything.

I've been doing a lot of metta meditation lately, so while each of these labels call to mind different initial sensations, those sensations pretty quickly turn into a blanketed feeling of warmth and well-wishes.

Thank you!

[warissem]

Hi

Thank you for your answers.

An exercise about attention :

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how attention moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how attention moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

Attention moves on its own for the most part. One can try to control our influence it, but it's like training a puppy. The puppy will listen to a degree, but in the end it does what it wants. We might try to say, "focus on the breath," but that only lasts so long until it's off doing whatever it each wants, like following thoughts or focusing on an itch in the leg.

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

Attention can be influenced but not controlled. For example, you suggested to focus on the breath. That can be done for a bit. It lasts for a minute or two before attention wanders on its own. Thinking can influence attention, but it cannot truly control it.

[warissem]

Hi

Are you happy with what you found? What has changed, what hasn’t changed in normal everyday life?

What do you notice different in relationships with close people?

Is seeking still going on and if so, what are you looking for?

Can you say with a big fat yes, that it is clear, a separate self is an illusion?

Thank you

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Hi. Thanks for your response and questions. I'm at a wedding this weekend so I'm a little distracted. I'll get back to you ASAP. Hope you're doing well!

[warissem]

Hi

Have a good time. take care

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Hi Warissem,

Apologies for my delayed response. I got sick at the wedding we attended (stomach bug), so the past few days have been difficult. All good though.

Are you happy with what you found? What has changed, what hasn’t changed in normal everyday life?

I am. Things feel lighter and I feel less like I need to guard myself.

What do you notice different in relationships with close people?

I feel closer to other people, but potentially that may also be due to my doing so much metta work lately.

Is seeking still going on and if so, what are you looking for?

Not seeking, per say, but I am consistently going back to the exercises and repeating them. Partially for fun. And partially to more deeply engrain the experience of no-self.

Can you say with a big fat yes, that it is clear, a separate self is an illusion?

Yes!

[warissem]

Hi

I hope you are doing well.

Fine, These are the final questions. Take your time for each of them and give answers after having looked at direct experience. You can give answers for a half of them now, the other half a day after. No worries.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Best wishes

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There was never an entity as such. There was the illusion of self, but not an entity itself.

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of separate self is the brain adding the thought of "I/me/my" after direct experiences. Through this inquiry what's different is that I feel lighter overall. I also feel a stronger connection to the world around me. As I'd mentioned, I had glimpses of non-duality and no-self previously through my meditation practice, but this process really solidified it and helped to remove doubts.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

To be honest, not a whole lot is dramatically different. It's mildly anti-climatic, which is OK. This potentially could be due to the glimpses I've had of no-self in the past. Seeing no-self clearly this time didn't cause some big "wow" moment or earth-shattering shift. It was more of a slow clearing away of clouds.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

The exercise where no-self is most obvious is the one where we focus on the lifting of the hands off a table. What decides which hand to move? Nothing. There is no decider. This is where no-self is clearest.

The bit that was most needed, though, was that there is no separation between knowing and sensory experience (seeing, hearing, etc.) just as with the concept of a man running where one cannot separate the man from the running.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

There's no such thing as free will. That's an illusion as well. Choices are influenced by a myriad of internal and external factors, by conditioning, habits, and karma. Ultimately, there is no free will as that would imply a self that had the will to make choices.

For example, someone asks me to complete a task for work, such as document review and analysis. The request starts the process. The training and repetition (i.e. conditioning) I've had over the years of completing similar tasks kicks in and my brain does the work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

One interesting thing is that there does seem to be an underlying sense of love and compassion to everything, as though it's an innate part of the knowing. It feels like my responsibility is to let this "drive" so to speak. To get out of the way and just let things happen with love and compassion as best I can. To relax and go along for the ride.

Along those lines, by acting through love and compassion, we should try to make good choices that benefit other beings and help reduce suffering. Like in helping my young son choose what to eat for breakfast, knowledge of nutrition tells us that fruit is a better choice than cookies, so we should use that knowledge to guide his choice in a loving way.

Also, in terms of responsibility, the ego does creep back in, although I'd imagine that with continued, diligent practice this will lesson over time. So another responsibility is probably to not let this just become another experience stored in my memory. The seeing should be maintained and deepened over time.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks very much for the help!