Looking for Guidance

[amrita]

Hello,

It sounds like you have a good intellectual grasp of the situation. A classic buddhist metaphor is the man who awakes and sees a poisonous snake on his bed and panics but then realises the "snake" is merely a piece of old rope. Likewise, the stories about the self, me, I, mine can seem very real and engaging but when we look clearly we can see that they are all empty symbols (mental words and pictures).

So when you say...

I take the thought seriously as a thing (in the material world, or nearly material), as opposed to just a symbol that represents an actual thing.

What is actually happening when you "take the thought seriously"? What is the difference in DE between observing a thought and being dis-identified from it and becoming caught up, identified with or taking the thought seriously?

can you look to see if you can find the precise moment when you move from a state of dis-identified awareness to being identified with a particular (set of) thoughts?

I know I have asked you this before but perhaps it is worth revisiting. We can see the thought of an apple is different from an actual apple so it logically follows that thoughts of an I or self are not the actual self. So what do these thoughts actually point to? What does the word/thought I actually refer to?

[LosingIt]

What is actually happening when you "take the thought seriously"? What is the difference in DE between observing a thought and being dis-identified from it and becoming caught up, identified with or taking the thought seriously?

Difficult question. I think it's a subconscious habit. When I'm in DE or meditation mode I'm more conscious of the fact that thoughts are just thoughts and not the things that they point to or refer to. When I'm in my day to day life, I tend to "fall asleep" during habitual tasks. It is during these times that I'm more likely to take thoughts seriously when they pop up. Out of habit.

can you look to see if you can find the precise moment when you move from a state of dis-identified awareness to being identified with a particular (set of) thoughts?

This is the million dollar question. I feel that I'm closer to being able to see this process when I am meditating. Just because I can see it happening in meditation, doesn't mean that I am always poised to see it in my day to day life. I feel that the more I meditate the more I will probably be able to see this process in my normal day to day.

I know I have asked you this before but perhaps it is worth revisiting. We can see the thought of an apple is different from an actual apple so it logically follows that thoughts of an I or self are not the actual self. So what do these thoughts actually point to? What does the word/thought I actually refer to?

What does the word/thought "I" actually refer to? Ultimately it is just a placeholder for an illusory self. It's a (too) convenient word that helps a body/brain navigate in a social world. Like most words it tries to limit a limitless being/thing/essence into a word/symbol for the sake of convenience.

[amrita]

Hi,

so when you say...

What does the word/thought "I" actually refer to? Ultimately it is just a placeholder for an illusory self. It's a (too) convenient word that helps a body/brain navigate in a social world. Like most words it tries to limit a limitless being/thing/essence into a word/symbol for the sake of convenience.

Does the words "I" "me" "mine" have any specific resonance within you? Does the word "Paul" evoke any specific resonance within you?

try writing the words I me mine Paul on a piece of paper and look at them. Is there any reaction at all to the words? Can "you" be idenfitied with any of those words/signifiers?

[LosingIt]

Does the words "I" "me" "mine" have any specific resonance within you? Does the word "Paul" evoke any specific resonance within you?

I would have to saty that it still does. It evokes certain memories, and faces of people that know me as "Paul" the label. But I know that "Paul" could never describe 1 billionth of this brain/body and consciousness.

try writing the words I me mine Paul on a piece of paper and look at them. Is there any reaction at all to the words? Can "you" be idenfitied with any of those words/signifiers?

Ultimately, the words are just scribbles of ink. And no, "I" cannot be identified with those words.

can you look to see if you can find the precise moment when you move from a state of dis-identified awareness to being identified with a particular (set of) thoughts?

I thought about this a little more. It feels that I unconscously shift from DE to abstract thoughts when I feel the need to solve a problem (that may or may not come up in the future) or when I am thinking of a future situation that I have planned. Or my brain just starts replaying some memory from the past. What sparks the memory could be anything. I could be in DE for a few moments then it seems my brain/mind just pops these memories and projections into my awareness with no real warning. And memories/projections evince more memories or projections or perceived problems to be solved ahead of time. And when these thoughts arise there is something else that arises that claims them as "mine", because obviously they are part of my story, they are "my" problems from "my" past or "my" future, because they are occuring in "my" head, which sets up upon "my" body, and "my" body is situated in this environment and I see and perceive this environment from "my" perspective. Paul's.

Wow, it sounds goofy to write that and say it out loud. But I think the above is the way I (and probably most people) go through life. Where is the entity that can claim ownership of any of this; of thoughts, of perceptions, of Paul? Hmmmmm

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say...

I thought about this a little more. It feels that I unconscously shift from DE to abstract thoughts when I feel the need to solve a problem (that may or may not come up in the future) or when I am thinking of a future situation that I have planned. Or my brain just starts replaying some memory from the past. What sparks the memory could be anything. I could be in DE for a few moments then it seems my brain/mind just pops these memories and projections into my awareness with no real warning. And memories/projections evince more memories or projections or perceived problems to be solved ahead of time. And when these thoughts arise there is something else that arises that claims them as "mine", because obviously they are part of my story, they are "my" problems from "my" past or "my" future, because they are occuring in "my" head, which sets up upon "my" body, and "my" body is situated in this environment and I see and perceive this environment from "my" perspective. Paul's.

Can you say a bit more about what makes a "memory" different from any other type of thought? What is the difference between a memory and a fantasy about the future?

Thinking/thought is an amazing problem solving tool but left to run amok it can cause us all sorts of problems. When you say that "something else" arises that claims thoughts as yourself can you look into what that something else is? Is it a sensation or is it a thought?

[LosingIt]

Can you say a bit more about what makes a "memory" different from any other type of thought? What is the difference between a memory and a fantasy about the future?[/quote

A memory and a fantasy about the future are similar in that they are both not actually happening. They are made up scenarios arising in awareness. If I think about something that happened in the past, it is currently not happening, just the memory is happening in the present. If I fantasize about something happening in the future, the actual event is not happening, just the fantasy, which is a thought happening in the now.

Thinking/thought is an amazing problem solving tool but left to run amok it can cause us all sorts of problems. When you say that "something else" arises that claims thoughts as yourself can you look into what that something else is? Is it a sensation or is it a thought?

It is absolutely a thought and not a sensation. It is a thought that says I, me, or mine.

[amrita]

Hi,

Before I respond to your last post I thought it may be good to check in with you to see how you are getting on with this inquiry? Are you managing to find time to look in your daily schedule? If so, have you noticed anything has changed in the way you look? How about spending more or less time in DE rather than in past or present fantasies? And lastly, are you still enjoying the looking/inquiring?

Thinking/thought is an amazing problem solving tool but left to run amok it can cause us all sorts of problems. When you say that "something else" arises that claims thoughts as yourself can you look into what that something else is? Is it a sensation or is it a thought?
It is absolutely a thought and not a sensation. It is a thought that says I, me, or mine.

So are you saying that your sense of self is caused by a thought that says I. me or mine? When you look at a thought that says this is me, I or mine do you have any sense of ownership of that thought? Did you cause that thought to come or to go away? Is that thought "you" in any way whatsoever?

Perhaps write the thought down on a piece of paper "this is me" and look at it. Is that thought you?

[LosingIt]

Before I respond to your last post I thought it may be good to check in with you to see how you are getting on with this inquiry? Are you managing to find time to look in your daily schedule? If so, have you noticed anything has changed in the way you look? How about spending more or less time in DE rather than in past or present fantasies? And lastly, are you still enjoying the looking/inquiring?

I am definitely finding time in my daily schedule for looking.

Has anything changed? I feel that I still intellectualize the process too much.

I'm not sure that I feel I'm spending more time in DE, but I would say that I'm definitely not taking my thoughts/abstractions as seriously as I did before I started this process. I recognize a lot of my worries as "just thoughts" and not my present reality and that has been a good thing. Sometimes when I am caught up in thoughts/ruminations I am able to catch myself and realize what is happening and then let the thoughts dissipate.

So are you saying that your sense of self is caused by a thought that says I. me or mine? When you look at a thought that says this is me, I or mine do you have any sense of ownership of that thought? Did you cause that thought to come or to go away? Is that thought "you" in any way whatsoever?

There is no ownership of the thought. And I definitely did not cause the thought to arise. It is just a persistent habit. The thought is definitely not me. I'm spending a lot of time noticing when the thoughts of I/me/mine arise in situations throughout the day. It is very sneaky. Should I confront the thought or just notice it. I'm assuming I should just notice it.

Perhaps write the thought down on a piece of paper "this is me" and look at it. Is that thought you?

I think I very much understand that no word can ever really capture the reality of an object/thing/being that it is meant to represent.

[amrita]

hi,

when you say

Has anything changed? I feel that I still intellectualize the process too much.

and

There is no ownership of the thought. And I definitely did not cause the thought to arise. It is just a persistent habit. The thought is definitely not me. I'm spending a lot of time noticing when the thoughts of I/me/mine arise in situations throughout the day. It is very sneaky. Should I confront the thought or just notice it. I'm assuming I should just notice it.

This process takes place outside of thought so to speak rather than being caught up or identified in thinking. We come to the realisation that there is no self by directly witnessing it rather than thinking about it. In terms of confronting a thought I feel its better to notice a thought is present (and dis-identify from it) rather than attempting to confront it with another thought which will inevitably lead to more thoughts and becoming more caught up in thinking.

Here's an example to hopefully make it clearer. If I ask you what colour are your socks you have on you can either spend time trying to remember what socks you put on this morning or you can just look with your eyes snd see for yourself. Its the same kind of looking in this process where we simply look for anything that might resemble a self/I/me within what is experienced. The more you can look the more likely it is you will see for yourself that it is obvious there is no self/I anywhere to be found.

I hope that's helpful :)

[LosingIt]

You didn't really ask me a question in your last correspondence, which is okay.

So, I thought I would write you about something that may have given me a better glimpse. It's weird, but bear with me.

I hope you've seen the move "Being John Malkovich".

I was thinking about experiencing a nondual state through a strange exercise. I imagined that, instead of going into John Malkovich's mind/head/brain, John Cusack's character would down the tunnel and into Paul's mind, experiencing everything that Paul experiences (just like he did with John Malkovich). Then I changed it. Instead of thinking of John Cusack's character experiencing my body/mind, I thought of the real experiencer as "No one" or "nobody", just empty space.

I did this yesterday, meditated for 40 minutes, and for about 15-30 minutes afterwards it felt as if my ego was suspended and I was in a prolonged DE state.

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

I didn't ask a question as I feel you need to spend more time into looking into experience for any sign of a self rather than respond to questions which may stimulate your thinking/intellectual approach. I like your description of no experiencer and empty space and encourage you to spend as much time in the DE state actively looking for any sign/presence of a separate experiencer (to what is being experienced).

Here are some questions for you since you have asked...

Is there a self/I that exists? Has there ever been a seperate I/self experiencing or has there simply been experience (of sensations/colours/sounds/thoughts)?

Is there a separate "doer" or do things simply get done?

Is there a thinker or do thoughts simply arise and pass away?