Request for Jon C Rice to guide

[Turnip]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
LU provides pointers which can help encourage direct experience of the unreality of a separate and controlling 'self'. It's not possible to grasp this intellectually so just being 'told' doesn't work.

What are you looking for at LU?
To deepen experience and pay back the community in some practical way if possible.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Open to what happens.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
There was a brief attempt on LU early last year followed by some intermittent Skype sessions with Ilona culminating in the suggestion that I could return to LU to chat with Jon and see if I could contribute to LU.
In terms of experience, it seems that this is all there is. Just what is happening. Everything is included, positive, negative, resistance, acceptance, confusion, clarity, optimism, pessimism, doubt, certainty, anxiety and peace. Attention wanders seemingly at random. Life is messy but it's not 'my' mess and there is no 'me' to control anything although thoughts of I, me, my, mine remain and actions continue to be claimed automatically in thought.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[JonathanR]

Hello Tim

Glad that you arrived here! Nice to meet you.

I like what you have written in your intro.

Is it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no separate self? That the illusion of self is "seen"?

If there are any doubts about this or to do with control, choice, decisions, how things happen, do let me know?

It would be great to move to some key questions at this stage and once you've answered these I would like to ask other guides to take a look, to see if they would have further questions.

It's really great that you are inclined to guide. Let's see how things go.

Love

Jon

[Turnip]

Hi Jon

Thanks for being here too and for your welcome. :)

Is it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no separate self? That the illusion of self is "seen"?

The idea of a 'separate self' hasn't been meaningful for a long time. Recently an illness that could have been fatal led me to look again and I found nothing separate that could die. However, the 'sense of me' can be very strong at times, old behaviours repeat, triggers occur, anxiety and doubts about all manner of things arise and subside. The role and story appear to continue and to evolve.

Looking at the 'separate' bit of the question, often there is such a strong sense of connection with everything it is almost overwhelming. Hearing, touch, sight can all seem to trigger this feeling. There can be a sense of great silence in noisy places, rolling over in bed with the sensation of the pressure and touch of the mattress, looking at the dog running or even a can that's been chucked in a hedgerow - all these can trigger and heighten this sense of connection. Hard to find the words, sorry. Then a train of thoughts can come along, horizons may contract, mood may change and the sense of me may be closer again.

If there are any doubts about this or to do with control, choice, decisions, how things happen, do let me know?

Looking at control, it has seemed for a long time that no-one does the cooking, driving, gardening. Chatting just happens. Recently the sense of things just happening seems to have spread to most activities. Things like choice and the making of 'important' decisions (like coming back to LU!) and changes in direction with occupation seem to carry more of the sense of self and seem more laboured. Longer periods of low mood can appear to be met with resistance which again has a flavour of 'me'. Sometimes help is sought with things that appear difficult.

Well that seems to summarise what's here at the moment..

With love

Tim

[JonathanR]

Hi Tom

What a lovely report of what's 'seen'.

. There can be a sense of great silence in noisy places, rolling over in bed with the sensation of the pressure and touch of the mattress, looking at the dog running or even a can that's been chucked in a hedgerow - all these can trigger and heighten this sense of connection. Hard to find the words, sorry. Then a train of thoughts can come along, horizons may contract, mood may change and the sense of me may be closer again.

It is hard to find the words isn't it?

And yes, trains of thought do appear , moods change and an impression of "me" seems closer, That pesky illusion up to its old nonsense eh? But could it ever move in permanently as a "real me"?

. Longer periods of low mood can appear to be met with resistance which again has a flavour of 'me'. Sometimes help is sought with things that appear difficult.

But is there ever an actual one seeking help?


With love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Sorry about my typo Tim. I know you're not "Tom"

[Turnip]

Good morning Jon and thanks for your reply.

It is hard to find the words isn't it?

Words always seem wrong and not up to the job unfortunately.

And yes, trains of thought do appear , moods change and an impression of "me" seems closer, That pesky illusion up to its old nonsense eh? But could it ever move in permanently as a "real me"?

Everything is already whole and complete and nothing can be added or taken away. At times of contraction, all that happens is that thoughts seem to dominate and grab attention and if they are believed for a while, it can seem as if 'me' returns. It's just the nature of the illusion. The continuation of the role and story can seem to confirm the 'reality of me' as others reinforce the presence of 'Tim' in communication. Honestly, the whole thing is bonkers and defies explanation!

But is there ever an actual one seeking help?

In the story, communication happens, help is sought and received. Gratitude is expressed and the story rolls on as it is now with hands typing, apparent communicating, the sound of running water from the garden, a WhatsApp from my son coming in and being answered. It just all happens and there is the appearance that it happens from the form called Tim. There is only this which is everything and an apparent now but the illusion operates with apparent separate things and beings in time and space. I come back to the comment about it being bonkers and being beyond understanding!

With love

Tim

[Turnip]

Sorry Jon, waffling again!

No, there is no real me that could move in permanently, no there is no actual one seeking help.

With love

[JonathanR]

Hi Tim

You weren't waffling! Well, not too much. I waffle a lot more than that sometimes.

Anyway, here are six questions that we always ask at
about this stage in proceedings. Please feel free to write as much as you would like and take as much time as you need.


1). Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2. Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5a. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

5b. What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6. Anything to add?



With love

Jon

[Turnip]

1). Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. There is just what is happening, 'this', which is whole and complete. There is no 'this' +1. That's always been the case.

2. Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

Thoughts arise spontaneously and the language used is full of words that suggest separateness. Here and there, me and you, bigger and smaller, better and worse. Speech and communication from an early age confirm to the developing child that this is how things are. Differentiation and competition are encouraged and can seem to be necessary for human life to operate. Memories help to build an individual past, a character with a name seems to be who you are and to control the story which arises. Dreams for the future and interactions with others who believe the reality of the story and character help to prevent questioning of the solidity of the whole edifice. And then here it is, a full and vibrant soap opera of life complete with real people in control of their destiny.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

It's been a while, possibly a year, so that initial sense of bliss has been replaced by more ordinariness. It's also surprisingly hard to remember how things were 'before'. Much of the time there is a feeling of connectedness to everything and there can be a feeling that sensations and feelings have a quality of love - hard to explain. There doesn't seem to be a controller of actions and thoughts. Feelings of responsibility are much diminished or gone. Experience is more direct and intense in some ways but things seem more remote in others. Past baggage is more obvious and there is more willingness and ability to tackle it. Generally there is more peace and less reactivity but anxiety and sadness still arise. There are periods still of getting caught up in thoughts and a feeling of separation.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

The only seemingly significant moment I can remember was when Ilona challenged me to look at anxiety as time wasted looking at a future that simply doesn't exist. Definitely a bit of a 'boom' shift then. Otherwise it's seemed gradual with 'ups and downs'.

5a. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Essentially they are things that happen with labelling that claims control afterwards. They are ideas that contribute to the illusion of a separate controlling self. For example, there was reading of this question, a thought arose that it was difficult to express and my hand reached out for a Rubik's cube which I played with for a while while other thoughts arose, some relating to the question and others quite unrelated. Then I sat forward and typing started with thoughts of the words arising often after they were typed. There were 'effort related' frowns and pursed lips. Now there is a smile and laughter.

How does it work? Not a clue! Most of the time the illusion chugs along unchallenged and it's just life happening.

5b. What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I don't chuck litter on the ground. I do use far more energy and resources than most people. I do plan to install solar panels due to a sense of responsibility that I need to contribute to energy production. Seemingly, charged thoughts and linked emotions arise to commentate on and orchestrate all of this.

Yesterday a pile of onions appeared on the kitchen table put there by my wife. A memory cropped up that it was 'my turn' to make a meal. There was discussion and a feeling of guilt arose when my wife suggested she could make the meal. Onions were chopped and cooked and (rather nice) soup was made, apparently by me. :)

All part of life's drama.

6. Anything to add?

Increasingly there is understanding that nothing will ever be understood. Neither does it need to be and that's a hard lesson to learn. Increasingly there is an emphasis on clearing out charged issues linked to memories. Challenges of various sorts continue but by and large questions and full on seeking stopped a while ago and that was a relief. There is much gratitude for all help that has been received here from Vivien and now Jon, from one or two people not on LU, from Ilona on Skype and through videos made by many people and made available online. Now there is a real curiosity to explore guiding.

[JonathanR]

Thank you Tim for those wonderful answers. I found my self grinning with recognition a couple of times, for sure.

I will ask guides to take a look at your answers as, after reading them, I don't have any real questions to ask. They may have questions. Let's see.

They might take a couple of days to get back to us if they are busy.

Speak soon.

Love

Jon

[Turnip]

Thank you Jon, much appreciated and look forward to speaking again.

Love

Tim

[JonathanR]

Morning Tim,

Just a quick message to let you know that the guides do not have any more questions for you , That was unanimous 😊

Soon you should notice that your name on the forum will change from green to blue. It will change to red at some stage ( since you're interested in guiding.) Also, your thread,will be moved to Archive where we can continue to chat.

I'll write again later today.

I'm delighted .

Love

Jon

[Turnip]

Wow, thank you Jon and thanks to the other guides as well. What a whirlwind! I look forward to further exploration.

Love

Tim

[JonathanR]

Hi Tim

Well, how nice. Now we can talk about guiding, if you'd like to do that?

I'm a little rusty on some of the administrative details but I can let you know how we go about doing guiding at LU.

You will have picked up a lot by working with Ilona? Her pointing is very very skilful..

Did you mention Skype guiding? I think that Ilona did to me. Some of us are going to start to guide by Skype or Zoom. I have never actually done that before but that won't stop me from having a go. There's nothing like having to pull a rabbit out of a hat to spice things up. 😉

You and I could communicate via Zoom if you'd prefer it to writing? I'm happy writing, but am happy either way.

If you like I could run through the basic form of how we guide using LU Gate before we turn towards considering video guiding? This could be very useful groundwork and you'd be able to try written guiding first? And in any case there tend to be typical issues that arise at the beginning of written guiding and then, after the client begins to "see" there are some concluding and "tidying up" issues as well as what we call "confirmations", which tend to involve at least three guides checking the client's written thread for clarity. All this is useful groundwork. I'd recommend that we run through the basics of written guiding first.

But I don't want to stifle your enthusiasm. You may want to get into video guiding very soon? In that case I think that the form may evolve rather quickly as not many guides yet do video guiding. You may well have a good sense of how it could happen after working with Ilona? And I would be very interested to find out from you, how you would set about guiding by Video?. You might well be able to help me adapt to the new medium.


Well I've already written a lot so why not write back with your ideas?

Love

Jon

[Turnip]

Hi Jon

Thanks for your message. Exciting times! Intermittent written messages, while concentrating the mind, don't help with flow and are somewhat inefficient. Why don't we have a chat on Zoom? I'm used to fairly used to the medium and we could perhaps help each other. I'll DM some contact details and we could perhaps agree an hour or so to have a chat if that would suit you.

Love

Tim