Waking up

[Bashopoem]

It is interesting to elaborate your answers a little more.

OK. I'll try

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

It feels like nothing is choosing which hand to raise. It just seems to happen at random.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

I'm looking but cannot find anything or anyone making this choice. The ego kind of wants to identify with the choice, but I can see clearly that there is no separate self doing so.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

There doesn't seem to be anything in particular actually controlling the hand. It feels like which hand raises is completely random.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I cannot locate a controller. There is just the physical sensations of the hands raising and the cold touch of the table.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

What's making the hand move is a combination of your request for me to move my hand and my willingness to do the exercise. Which hand is chosen to move is entirely random.

How is the decision made?

There's no decision made. It's just happening.

Thanks!

[warissem]

Hi

Good observations.

What's making the hand move is a combination of your request for me to move my hand and my willingness to do the exercise. Which hand is chosen to move is entirely random.

In direct experience, is there "my request" ? Is there your willingness ?

Is there a you to move a hand ? Is it Your hand ?

Is there a you, a separate self, in any shape or form ? Look.

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

In direct experience, is there "my request" ? Is there your willingness ?

In direct experience is the memory of your request for me to move my hand, which is what sparked this series of events. This memory is just a thought, but it still exists. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. "My willingness" is similar. It's just a memory, but it existed, left a trace was part of the series of events that preceded this moment.

Is there a you to move a hand ? Is it Your hand ?

The hand just seems to move on its own, prompted by the series of events that started with your request for me to move my hand.

Is there a you, a separate self, in any shape or form ? Look.

My struggle with this question relates to "the witness." I cannot locate a separate self that is prompting or controlling thoughts or the movement of this body. However, I still seem to relate to awareness (i.e. the witness) as a self.

[Bashopoem]

In direct experience, is there "my request" ? Is there your willingness ?

In direct experience is the memory of your request for me to move my hand, which is what sparked this series of events. This memory is just a thought, but it still exists. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. "My willingness" is similar. It's just a memory, but it existed, left a trace was part of the series of events that preceded this moment.

Is there a you to move a hand ? Is it Your hand ?

The hand just seems to move on its own, prompted by the series of events that started with your request for me to move my hand.

Is there a you, a separate self, in any shape or form ? Look.

My struggle with this question relates to "the witness." I cannot locate a separate self that is prompting or controlling thoughts or the movement of this body. However, I still seem to relate to awareness (i.e. the witness) as a self.

[Bashopoem]

In direct experience, is there "my request" ? Is there your willingness ?

In direct experience is the memory of your request for me to move my hand, which is what sparked this series of events. This memory is just a thought, but it still exists. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. "My willingness" is similar. It's just a memory, but it existed, left a trace was part of the series of events that preceded this moment.

Is there a you to move a hand ? Is it Your hand ?

The hand just seems to move on its own, prompted by the series of events that started with your request for me to move my hand.

Is there a you, a separate self, in any shape or form ? Look.

My struggle with this question relates to "the witness." I cannot locate a separate self that is prompting or controlling thoughts or the movement of this body. However, I still seem to relate to awareness (i.e. the witness) as a self.

[Bashopoem]

In direct experience, is there "my request" ? Is there your willingness ?

In direct experience is the memory of your request for me to move my hand, which is what sparked this series of events. This memory is just a thought, but it still exists. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. "My willingness" is similar. It's just a memory, but it existed, left a trace was part of the series of events that preceded this moment.

Is there a you to move a hand ? Is it Your hand ?

The hand just seems to move on its own, prompted by the series of events that started with your request for me to move my hand.

Is there a you, a separate self, in any shape or form ? Look.

My struggle with this question relates to "the witness." I cannot locate a separate self that is prompting or controlling thoughts or the movement of this body. However, I still seem to relate to awareness (i.e. the witness) as a self.

[Bashopoem]

In direct experience, is there "my request" ? Is there your willingness ?

In direct experience is the memory of your request for me to move my hand, which is what sparked this series of events. This memory is just a thought, but it still exists. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. "My willingness" is similar. It's just a memory, but it existed, left a trace was part of the series of events that preceded this moment.

Is there a you to move a hand ? Is it Your hand ?

The hand just seems to move on its own, prompted by the series of events that started with your request for me to move my hand.

Is there a you, a separate self, in any shape or form ? Look.

My struggle with this question relates to "the witness." I cannot locate a separate self that is prompting or controlling thoughts or the movement of this body. However, I still seem to relate to awareness (i.e. the witness) as a self.

[Bashopoem]

In direct experience, is there "my request" ? Is there your willingness ?

In direct experience is the memory of your request for me to move my hand, which is what sparked this series of events. This memory is just a thought, but it still exists. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. "My willingness" is similar. It's just a memory, but it existed, left a trace was part of the series of events that preceded this moment.

Is there a you to move a hand ? Is it Your hand ?

The hand just seems to move on its own, prompted by the series of events that started with your request for me to move my hand.

Is there a you, a separate self, in any shape or form ? Look.

My struggle with this question relates to "the witness." I cannot locate a separate self that is prompting or controlling thoughts or the movement of this body. However, I still seem to relate to awareness (i.e. the witness) as a self.

[warissem]

Hi

In direct experience is the memory of your request for me to move my hand, which is what sparked this series of events. This memory is just a thought, but it still exists.

You said it : this memory is just a thought.

It exists only as a thought.

Is it your hand ? If so, can you describe this me to which the hand belongs ?

My struggle with this question relates to "the witness." I cannot locate a separate self that is prompting or controlling thoughts or the movement of this body. However, I still seem to relate to awareness (i.e. the witness) as a self.

The struggle of whom ?

Is there a witness outside of thought ?

Yes, there is being aware (awareness) : it is not you, it is impersonal.

Is knowing separate from seeing ? Is seeing separate from the seen ?

A clue : read the question, look at direct experience before giving an answer. Don't use mind processes and logic.

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

You said it : this memory is just a thought. It exists only as a thought. Is it your hand ? If so, can you describe this me to which the hand belongs ?

If I'm understanding your question correctly...No, the memory is not the same as the hand. The memory is just a thought. I am unable to describe the "me" to which the hand belongs.

The struggle of whom ? Is there a witness outside of thought ? Yes, there is being aware (awareness) : it is not you, it is impersonal.

To clarify, when I say the witness, I mean awareness. You stated that awareness "is not you, it is impersonal," but that seems to be an issue for me. I appear to associate the sense of awareness itself as a sense of self. Just saying that it's impersonal doesn't change or alleviate this. The sense of awareness feels like a sense of self.

Is knowing separate from seeing ? Is seeing separate from the seen ?

No, knowing is not separate from seeing. The object seen and the knowing of it are intertwined (or, perhaps, the same thing).

[warissem]

Hi

If I'm understanding your question correctly...No, the memory is not the same as the hand. The memory is just a thought. I am unable to describe the "me" to which the hand belongs.

The language is tricky, we say : my hand, my body, my car, my wife, ... An exercise for you :

Go for a walk and write back all what is going on. After having written the whole text, write the same text without using I, me, my, mine. What do you notice ?

To clarify, when I say the witness, I mean awareness. You stated that awareness "is not you, it is impersonal," but that seems to be an issue for me. I appear to associate the sense of awareness itself as a sense of self. Just saying that it's impersonal doesn't change or alleviate this. The sense of awareness feels like a sense of self.

Return to direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensations) and describe a witness, awareness, a sense of self.

Right now you will say "I am reading this post". Is there really an I reading the post ? Can you find it? is a sense of self reading this post ? is there awareness reading this post?

No, knowing is not separate from seeing.

Yes, a result of looking at direct experience.

The object seen and the knowing of it are intertwined (or, perhaps, the same thing).

Do you see that this sentence is a train of thoughts ?

As human, we have a default setting : we want to understand what is going on and put a word on every "thing". What is here now does not need a concept to be. We are conditioned to put a subject before a verb. Is it necessary ? Is the verb separate from the subject ? We say : a man is running. Is the man, the body, separate from the movement of running? Only words create separation.

Best wishes

Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Go for a walk and write back all what is going on. After having written the whole text, write the same text without using I, me, my, mine. What do you notice ?

There is a natural tendency to narrate through the first person point of view using the language of I/me/my. This is a conditioned habit deeply ingrained in us. But once I dropped the "I" the narrating experience was pretty fluid, just focusing on the sense experience. Seeing trees. Feeling the heat of the sun. Legs moving, feet hitting the pavement, creating pressure.

Return to direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensations) and describe a witness, awareness, a sense of self.

Awareness is the existence of knowing. For example, bare feet are touching the floor. The floor is cool. The sensation of coolness is known through direct experience. Awareness exists.

While I can clearly see that awareness cannot be uncoupled from sensory experience, I also cannot seem to uncouple awareness from a sense of self. It's really frustrating.

Right now you will say "I am reading this post". Is there really an I reading the post ? Can you find it? is a sense of self reading this post ? is there awareness reading this post?

In direct experience, the eyes see the words. The words are known. There is a knowing of what the language means. That knowing feels like a self.

Do you see that this sentence is a train of thoughts ?

I see that it's a thought, but it's a thought describing an experience.

Is the verb separate from the subject ? We say : a man is running. Is the man, the body, separate from the movement of running? Only words create separation.

No, the verb is not separate from the subject. As described above, though, I'm stuck on the fact of the verb and the subject being known. The man is running. Something seems to know this.

Thanks for your patience and continued help!

[warissem]

Hi

There is a natural tendency to narrate through the first person point of view using the language of I/me/my. This is a conditioned habit deeply ingrained in us. But once I dropped the "I" the narrating experience was pretty fluid, just focusing on the sense experience. Seeing trees. Feeling the heat of the sun. Legs moving, feet hitting the pavement, creating pressure.

yes, using "I" is a habit. What is here does not need concepts to be.

Awareness is the existence of knowing. For example, bare feet are touching the floor. The floor is cool. The sensation of coolness is known through direct experience. Awareness exists.

Awareness = being aware = knowing. There is this knowing. It is here now, here now, never yesterday or tomorrow. Do yesterday and tomorrow exist outside of thoughts ?

There is seeing and there is labeling of all what is seen. That's OK. The labels serve to design objects and to communicate. The label is not real. If a chair is labeled "table", it won't change anything. We use the word "awareness" to point to this nothingness, this emptiness full of presence. When this is seen, this is it. All other stuff is about thoughts, stories about me, you, others, the world, etc ...

While I can clearly see that awareness cannot be uncoupled from sensory experience, I also cannot seem to uncouple awareness from a sense of self. It's really frustrating.

How can you say that ? During deep sleep, is awareness coupled with sensory experience ?

A sense of self arises only when you are awake or when you dream. Is there awareness or awarenesses ? Is there one knowing principle or a lot of personal knowing principles ?

In direct experience, the eyes see the words. The words are known. There is a knowing of what the language means. That knowing feels like a self.

Would you please, describe what you mean by "knowing" and by "self".

I see that it's a thought, but it's a thought describing an experience.

Yes, some thoughts describe experience, others point to objects, others point to other thoughts and some thoughts point to nothing.

No, the verb is not separate from the subject. As described above, though, I'm stuck on the fact of the verb and the subject being known. The man is running. Something seems to know this.

Yes, there is knowing of a running man. Is the running man separate from the knowing of it ? Only the use of language seems to separate the knowing from the known. Language cannot express the experience as it is. There is always one word at a time. Example : there is an apple on the table. Real experience is raw and unique and whole. You cannot describe the whole experience at once. We use some words for colors, other words for smell and taste, texture, etc ... An experience lasting an eye blink will be described in words during five minutes. Are you clear about the difference of "what is" and its description or thoughts about it ?

Thanks for your patience and continued help

You are welcome, Warissem

[Bashopoem]

Do yesterday and tomorrow exist outside of thoughts?

No. All that exists is the present moment.

Is there awareness or awarenesses ? Is there one knowing principle or a lot of personal knowing principles ?

There seems to be only one knowing principle. I've never experienced multiple types or modes of awareness.

Would you please, describe what you mean by "knowing" and by "self".

When I concentrate and look closely, there is awareness, or knowing-ness, which is the state of being aware of sensory experience, thoughts, or emotions. Then, there are thoughts ABOUT that sense of awareness, which is where the "I" or "self" is added/created. What is throwing me off is that the "I" thoughts (i.e. sense of self) happen so rapidly, naturally, and habitually that it feels like the sense of self is coupled with awareness, but it's not actually. The sense of self is a series of thoughts and/or emotions that arise after the experience.

Are you clear about the difference of "what is" and its description or thoughts about it ?

I am clear about this, yes. It's the difference between the experience of the present moment and the description that follows.

Thank you!

[warissem]

Hi

Fine. Feel free to discuss here any doubt or any stuff about seeing the illusion of a separate self, before going to the final questions.

Best wishes

Warissem