Seeing that Frees

[Mamaki]

Hello dear Vince

You asked me...

Do you imagine that being judgmental about yourself is virtuous?

Mmm, interesting question! No, nothing virtuous in being judgemental.
However yes, there is a belief that revealing weakness is a good thing because as the story goes it's open and honest! This probably comes from buddhist and 12 step fellowship conditioning on top of family and life conditioning of the surya character. The story fails to include the positive judgements though. Its a bit confusing to hold both views/storylines. In actual experience i do include positive storylines to counter the negative judgements. Also aspire to a view of valuing a perspective that goes beyond judgement.

It's not like something is being withheld. i could be glib and say that it is beyond human comprehension, but really, you don't have to live with a question without an answer for very long and you become bored with looking for what you know is elusive. (& maybe doesn't even exist)

OK, makes sense

These are mind games. Kids stories, meant to divert you from the unknown. They shout "There's safety in familiarity."
Oh, and you won't be giving up anything that you knew, because you don't know anything. You have beliefs that will change with experiences.

OK

Love the way this sounds but how?

When you ask how, you imply that there are things that you can do to bring about this result. Is that accurate?

Yes! It feels like there's a way to be that's not happening here and that should be happening and would be great if it were happening!

You know how a lotus grows in the mud? (rhetorical question) It might help if you imagine a lotus plant that has been uprooted from the mud and is floating past you on a river of thoughts (thoughts that appear unhelpful.)

i like this image yet thoughts arise about what the metaphor means...! Feelings of calm and relaxation arise with this image which was taken to bed in an openness to bring to dream consciousness. Dreams of insignificant yellow flowers. Yellow IS significant here!
Energy flowing today, more present to THIS, feelings of excitement.

with love and appreciation
surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Surya,

However yes, there is a belief that revealing weakness

Isn't something labeled as weakness a judgment?

because as the story goes it's open and honest!

..another judgment?

The story fails to include the positive judgments though.

So look and tell me (from experience) what is a judgment?

Its a bit confusing to hold both views/storylines.

Ha, certainly to hold and reconcile two conflicting stories must produce confusion. (or something) Find an incident of this happening and look for underlying stories and spinoff stories.

Also aspire to a view of valuing a perspective that goes beyond judgment.

This will happen. It will start with judgment happening and being seen (& we know what happens when stuff is seen) & gradually they will occur less and less.

OK, makes sense

Have you been practicing living with a question that doesn't demand an answer?

These are mind games. Kids stories, meant to divert you from the unknown. They shout "There's safety in familiarity."
Oh, and you won't be giving up anything that you knew, because you don't know anything. You have beliefs that will change with experiences.

OK

This is an inadequate response.

Yes! It feels like there's a way to be that's not happening here and that should be happening and would be great if it were happening!

Yes, & do you know what that way is?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good day Vince,

However yes, there is a belief that revealing weakness

Isn't something labeled as weakness a judgment?

Yes. It's judged to be weak rather than strong.

because as the story goes it's open and honest!

..another judgment?

Agreed! It's judged to be open and honest rather than closed and deceitful!

The story fails to include the positive judgments though.

So look and tell me (from experience) what is a judgment?

A judgement is seen as a story about something that first of all is deemed to be true like 'i am feeling happy' and is immediately accompanied or followed by a judgement about whether feeling happy is a good thing or a bad thing. A story might run about happy being good and 'I' will take ownership of that to get a boost etc.
This character seems to need to be self judging in front of others to show self awareness of flaws hopefully before others criticise. Deep fear of rejection experienced as leg spasm accompanying thoughts of something they said that they fear was wrong and that others might judge them for!
Judgement is about either accepting or rejecting experience. It uses the language of should and shouldn't.

Ha, certainly to hold and reconcile two conflicting stories must produce confusion. (or something) Find an incident of this happening and look for underlying stories and spinoff stories.

When asked to do this 2 stories:
I can't do this, can't think clearly
I can do this, trust that clarity will come
Both judgements! Prefer second one! Another judgement!
Story about how experience has shown that resistance is just a feeling and body sensation which doesn't need to be taken too seriously. Resistance can be overcome. Here both stories are true. The one about resistance and the one about overcoming resistance and i can't know if the resistance will linger or pass on. i assume i am choosing to overcome resistance but if it happens i didn't make it happen even if a wish for it was present.

Also aspire to a view of valuing a perspective that goes beyond judgment.

This will happen. It will start with judgment happening and being seen (& we know what happens when stuff is seen) & gradually they will occur less and less.

OK, makes sense. Thanks for the reminder about seeing stuff having its effect at loosening the belief.

Have you been practicing living with a question that doesn't demand an answer?

Not sure...this dialogue invites hanging on in there without everything all tied up neatly. I guess the question of  whether or not there is a doer or controller here is a question i am living with and sometimes there's no answer demanded and more a trusting that this might be seen...

These are mind games. Kids stories, meant to divert you from the unknown. They shout "There's safety in familiarity."

Thanks for the cold splash! Refreshing wake up call! Yes, can see that. Feelings arising here about perceived judgement about 'kids stories'! But agree they even sound childish as voices in imagination.

Oh, and you won't be giving up anything that you knew, because you don't know anything

A bit more of a slap this one! On the level of deluded reality this feels rude! But in actual reality it really is true. Yes, stories told here about everything are based on assumption, wishful thinking...all kinds of feelings and sensations etc etc...

You have beliefs that will change with experiences.

OK, trusting this is happening and will likely continue to happen.

Yes! It feels like there's a way to be that's not happening here and that should be happening and would be great if it were happening!

Yes, & do you know what that way is?

Being present with all THIS where questions and answers aren't necessary or even relevant and where all experience is welcomed. Being open to the wonder and mystery of life. Letting go of seeking.

with love and much appreciation

surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Surya,

It uses the language of should and shouldn't.

Yes. Can you see that any opinion is a judgment?

This character seems to need to be self judging in front of others

If there is a lifetime of habit behind this, how would you expect this to change on waking up?

Deep fear of rejection experienced

Who rejected you? Whose approval do you seek? What is the first name that jumped into your mind?

When asked to do this 2 stories:

Excellent. Ha, loved the judgment about the judgment.

hanging on in there without everything all tied up neatly.

Does that incite fear or excitement (or something else?)

But in actual reality it really is true. Yes, stories told here about everything are based on assumption, wishful thinking...all kinds of feelings and sensations etc etc...

Absolutely!
So, it's all story. Everything is believed. Nothing is known. It's all a mystery. i have no control. There's no option but total surrender.
Not 'giving up' type surrender, but an open arms, welcoming, inviting surrender to whatever life offers. Liberation.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello again Vince

Can you see that any opinion is a judgment?

Yes, see this clearly. Opinion takes a stance in relation to something. Opinion runs a story like 'waking up is a good thing'. Therefore a judgement is made about the degree of waking up happening. The more the better. Another opinion and judgement...

This character seems to need to be self judging in front of others

If there is a lifetime of habit behind this, how would you expect this to change on waking up?

i hoped that once delusion of self was seen then like a tap root being cut everything else would wither. All habits born of that belief would cease almost immediately! But thinking of the 56 years of the surya character forging that groove it's not surprising it will take a long time for habit to fall away! However there's a story that habit has been weakening with awareness and 'Enlightening Quotes' for a few years already. Yesterday i led a workshop and there were subtle differences in how the preparation went. More welcoming anxiety whenever it arose. During workshop a relaxed flow. After the workshop experienced a bit of an anxious post mortem and a chuckle watching it play out! Meaning i could see that i was claiming to be the doer who made mistakes. How bizarre to have those thoughts after the event when at the time it seemed to flow all of a piece! But that's of course a judgement!

Deep fear of rejection experienced

Who rejected you?

Mum???Definitely Dad, me?

Whose approval do you seek?

buddhist groups, druid groups, 12 steps groups. Groups of all kinds. People in perceived authority. Actually sometimes all people!

What is the first name that jumped into your mind?

Mum

hanging on in there without everything all tied up neatly.

Does that incite fear or excitement (or something else?)

Both fear and excitement and awareness that this is not new territory to hang loose to not knowing. Experiencing more fear/anxiety as there is a story that says this is a bigger leap than what's been seen before...

So, it's all story. Everything is believed. Nothing is known. It's all a mystery. i have no control. There's no option but total surrender.

Yes, beliefs based on opinions based on judgements!

Not 'giving up' type surrender,
but an open arms, welcoming, inviting surrender to whatever life offers. Liberation.

Love this. Particularly like the emphasis that it's not 'giving up' but an embrace of all life gives.

Thanks so much

Love surya 🌞

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Surya,

Yes, see this clearly. Opinion takes a stance in relation to something.

So if there is no opinion arising, then what is the prevailing attitude towards what life offers?

chuckle watching it play out!

Yes, good answer (to the previous question). A good-humored sense of discovery is great.

Who rejected you?

Mum???Definitely Dad, me?

A rejectee is in hyper-story-creation mode. Can you remember some of the stories that triggered those really horrible feelings?

Whose approval do you seek?

Groups of all kinds. People in perceived authority.

Hmm, groups is interesting. Usually an authority figure is featured, but groups? Can you see how that works?

Experiencing more fear/anxiety as there is a story that says this is a bigger leap than what's been seen before...

Ha, yes. It seems huge from where you are looking, but from this side it's not so big. In fact, it's only a small step.

Particularly like the emphasis that it's not 'giving up' but an embrace of all life gives.

Oh yes. It's delicious.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good morning Vince

Yes, see this clearly. Opinion takes a stance in relation to something.

So if there is no opinion arising, then what is the prevailing attitude towards what life offers?

Openness and freedom

Who rejected you?

Mum???Definitely Dad, me?

A rejectee is in hyper-story-creation mode. Can you remember some of the stories that triggered those really horrible feelings?

'If Mummy really loved me she would never have sent me away' (to boarding school).
'If Daddy really loved me he wouldn't have left us' (by dying)
'It's my fault that these things happened ' Strong feelings arising on writing those last 3 stories.

Whose approval do you seek?

Groups of all kinds. People in perceived authority.

Hmm, groups is interesting. Usually an authority figure is featured, but groups? Can you see how that works?

Need to feel accepted in a group. And approved of, even if its because im different. I went from intense family life to the group (boarding school) at age of 7.  A shy intuitive child adept at reading Mothers emotions in order to feel safe tried unsuccessfully to do this in groups. 
So authority/power projected from Mother onto groups or institutions.
This is the story about the surya character that emerged from many years of Psychotherapy. Still having Psychotherapy...but less frequently while this dialogue continues...

Experiencing more fear/anxiety as there is a story that says this is a bigger leap than what's been seen before...

Ha, yes. It seems huge from where you are looking, but from this side it's not so big. In fact, it's only a small step.

Ooh that's so tantalising! Will be having some more Deep Looking sessions with Ilona this month which might help this 'small step'

Particularly like the emphasis that it's not 'giving up' but an embrace of all life gives.

Oh yes. It's delicious.

Oooh that sounds such an appealing story!

Love and gratitude

surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Good day Surya,

So if there is no opinion arising, then what is the prevailing attitude towards what life offers?

Openness and freedom

Yes, that but much more than that. There is the juice of excitement. The enthusiasm that comes with an unending flow of discoveries. There is the warmth of welcoming life into an embrace. There is a relaxed comfort that comes with a total acquiescence to trust. There is a sexiness that comes with zero self-consciousness.

Can you remember some of the stories that triggered those really horrible feelings?

'If Mummy really loved me she would never have sent me away' (to boarding school).
'If Daddy really loved me he wouldn't have left us' (by dying)
'It's my fault that these things happened ' Strong feelings arising on writing those last 3 stories.

i feel (almost) apologetic here when pointing out that these stories are the imaginings of a child in pain.
It's probably clear to you that a child invented the stories then responded to them with great intensity and constantly replayed them until they were seared into your brain.
So, how does one prune those really well-established neuronal pathways?
This is always a trick question. It is based on the illusion of 'doing'. So a better question is "can pruning happen?"
We grok impermanance, so if something appears to be unchanging, would it be more accurate to say that it it constantly changing into the same thing. If this is the case then we only have to (re)direct the change to get a result conducive with health and happiness. ..again a story based on that illusion. So, again restated more accurately; "is it possible for different change to happen?
..another question is, might a condition like being able to imagine that happening, be helpful?

A shy intuitive child adept at reading Mothers emotions in order to feel safe tried unsuccessfully to do this in groups.
So authority/power projected from Mother onto groups or institutions.

i was flooded with thoughts about the label "institutionalized" (possibly a medical term)
..and another story about people with authority focus are operating from the fear centre of the brain. If this is the case for you then what you are undergoing (remember that this is my story) what you are undergoing is a transfer from the back of the brain to the front. This means that many things are being relearnt from a different perspective. Go Surya!

Will be having some more Deep Looking sessions with Ilona this month which might help this 'small step'

Yes, good. i suspect that some 'veils' have been lifted.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi Vince

Apologies for a brief post but it's taking longer than usual to work out how to respond to your last post.

character surya has multiple thoughts and feelings about words written and will get back tomorrow.

Love and gratitude

surya🌞

[vinceschubert]

ok


v

[Mamaki]

Good day Vince,

Thanks for bearing with me...

Openness and freedom

Yes, that but much more than that. There is the juice of excitement.

Wow! Sounds enlivening and motivating!

The enthusiasm that comes with an unending flow of discoveries.

Sounds thrilling, wonderful!

There is the warmth of welcoming life into an embrace.

Beautiful and lovely!

There is a relaxed comfort that comes with a total acquiescence to trust.

Such a peaceful relaxing thought!

There is a sexiness that comes with zero self-consciousness.

Definitely want this! To inhabit that last for life. And the freedom to be anything without self consciousness... lush!

It's probably clear to you that a child invented the stories then responded to them with great intensity and constantly replayed them until they were seared into your brain.

Yes, and much pruning has already seemed to have happened. New behaviours happened that seem to have not been just a repeated habit, like confidence in speaking publicly to a group that would previously have seemed impossible. It did seem unbelievable at the time.

"can pruning happen?"

Yes, but how it happens is a mystery. Some dynamic co arising of multiple conditions perhaps is a possible story.

"is it possible for different change to happen?

Again, yes experience has shown that thought has perceived past experience one way and compared it with perceived current experience and made a judgement about changes in habits (brain pathways) which has been seemingly backed up by 'consensual reality' (the delusion of a separate self which is generally reiterated by everyone).

..another question is,
might a condition like being able to imagine that happening, be helpful?

Yes this is a helpful story that the idea of change being possible is a possible condition in it coming into being.

i was flooded with thoughts about the label "institutionalized" (possibly a medical term)

This is a label i have used about my story. But neuronal pathways have altered and there is less 'triggering' of old institutional behaviour..

..and another story about people with authority focus are operating from the fear centre of the brain. If this is the case for you then what you are undergoing (remember that this is my story) what you are undergoing is a transfer from the back of the brain to the front.

Not sure what to do with this story. Although my story includes beliefs that certain touch techniques that i use on self and others in my touch therapy work directly bring blood flow from hind brain to forebrain to activate clarity and creativity during overwhelm.

This means that many things are being relearnt from a different perspective. Go Surya!

Wow, energising and encouraging, thankyou! Trusting the process despite a bit of doubt arising!

i suspect that some 'veils' have been lifted.

Interesting, perhaps 'hind sight' will reveal what they are?!!

with love and appreciation

surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Surya,

New behaviours happened that seem to have not been just a repeated habit, like confidence in speaking publicly to a group that would previously have seemed impossible.

Excellent. Yes, as self exists as a story that we respond to, there is absolutely no reason why you can't whip up a chapter where Surya is adept at public speaking, insert that and then respond to it. It's great when we see it working. Anything is possible.

"can pruning happen?"

Yes, but how it happens is a mystery

There are theories as to how it happens, but it doesn't matter. It's great that it does, and very useful as we enjoy the idea of nonadaptive behaviour dissipating.
Surya, nobody who finds themselves through the gateless gate would consider themselves a master. The view from there is not in focus. The ground at your feet is crystal clear, but the way ahead is unknown. The sense of adventure and the confidence that it will be good is rampant.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good evening Vince

self exists as a story that we respond to,
there is absolutely no reason why you can't
whip up a chapter where Surya is adept at public speaking, insert that and then respond to it.
It's great when we see it working.
Anything is possible.

These words seems to be saying that the story surya character created about her life is ongoingly responded to by her (and changed by doing so) and she can create contradictory chapters such as the one on public speaking that may be inconsistent with the rest of the story but that she responds to with some or other judgement (depending on conditions including mood and memory?) This chapter is responded to with the concluded story  'its possible to change and that's a very surprising and positive thing in this context'

"can pruning happen?"
Yes, but how it happens is a mystery

There are theories as to how it happens, but it doesn't matter. It's great that it does, and very useful as we enjoy the idea of nonadaptive behaviour dissipating.

Absolutely especially as a spiritual seeker we enjoy it!

Surya, nobody who finds themselves through the gateless gate would consider themselves a master.

A master would presumably be able to see the way ahead with complete clarity of vision and know what was going on?
In other words 'stop expecting perfection in seeing at this stage' Has that sentence been understood correctly?

The view from there is not in focus. The ground at your feet is crystal clear, but the way ahead is unknown.

Beautiful! Assumption here that this is an appropriate way to view what is happening here withoutexpecting to know what's ahead and what will unfold?

The sense of adventure and the confidence that it will be good is rampant.

Wow! Reading the positive ways it can be, there is a measuring up going on here. That sense of adventure has been here for almost a decade where life has a magical quality with a natural openness and trust in creative unfolding...Theres been an overlooking of this pre dialogue experiencing, thinking that a post gate reality would be super different to what had gone before!
At the moment there is a searching happening here now for a tangible sign of change from this dialogue and there is something but it's very subtle and only time will tell what is different (is a time and space story!)
Perceived changes are a slight narrowing of focus with expectations that this dialogue would lead to a greater sense of presence. This seems to have led to a trimming of imagination about past and future in order to stay only within the small chamber of the present! Probably taking things a bit too literally which happens quite a lot here yet there are oft missed parts of the story of unexpected expanded vision and creative imagination!
There has been a  slight change in behaviour. A shorter delay in seeing patterns arise (particularly uncomfortable ones) and more frequent remembering to welcome the feeling and sensation. A new 'practise' has come into being which wasn't expected. There has been much less formal meditation here too. Main focus has been this wonderful dialogue. It's been stimulating, challenging, satisfying. So grateful for the skillful companionship and  compassion your words have conveyed. The uncompromising truth being pointed to and a seemingly unconditional acceptance of anything arising.
So is this where our dialogue ends? It does feel like there's a natural completion of something especially as there were no questions in the last post!

with love and emmense gratitude
Surya 🌼

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Surya,

In other words 'stop expecting perfection in seeing at this stage' Has that sentence been understood correctly?

Yes. When i look ahead, i see only mirrors showing me what is happening now.

Assumption here that this is an appropriate way to view what is happening here without expecting to know what's ahead and what will unfold?

Yes. Imagine how much of everything is freed up when this happens. Spaciousness happens.

So is this where our dialogue ends?

That wasn't intended. ..but it may be time.
Before you go, would you answer some questions that i will show to other guides to see if i have missed anything?
Be relaxed answering them. It's not a test.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Describe how the illusion of an independent self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.
Can you remember any specific enquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self
Take each of these and find examples in experience for each of them. Decision, intention, free will, choice, control and responsibility. On looking for an example of that which no longer exists, then an example from before and another from after it changed.

[Mamaki]

Hi again Vince

Yikes! That's a lot of questions. Bit of a heart sink here. Will do what's possible in time available but won't complete it today.
Hope to be in touch tomorrow.

Love and appreciation
Surya 🌼