mystery momentum

[dc74]

I did the exercise again, laying on the floor for thirty minutes. Mind settles, I'm with sensation, formlessness, then mind comes back in, again and again. Here is a question: It does seem like I am efforting to keep attention on sensations. When it moves away, I catch it at some point, and move it back to sensations. I cannot find this "I" that is doing this, but there is this intention, so how does life move independently from intention and attention?

[warissem]

Hi David

When a toe is stubbed there is pain.

Yes, a stubbed toe and pain are one, even two different concepts are used : do you see this ? The same with a tooth pain or a body running.

I guess I could ask, how do I know it is a toe? And that there is pain? It is just what is happening. When a thought of my x-girlfriend arises there is a tension in the heart. There seems to be cause an effect, a relationship between events.

Do you see that cause and effect are thoughts ?

This is how my "I" slips back in. It says, "You need me to make meaning of things like this so we can navigate this uncertain world." If "I" is not learning, there is a natural evolution that occurs that does not involve me. Life moves and evolves and responds without me. Life has a flow of its own. Is this correct?

Do you see that all what you said is a train of thoughts ? Can you consider the words you used one by one and stick them on something that is directly experienced (seen, heard, smelt, tasted or sensed, felt) ? See it for yourself

Exercise done. From a place of pure sensation I can't know anything. When I am still all separation falls away. There is no inside and outside. There are no specifics of the body. No height, weight, or anything. Should I continue to practice this? To allow all things to fall away other than the raw sensations?

That is an exercise to make you see that the body is appearances + thoughts. Now is there someone, you, an entity, which knows sensations and thoughts ?

I did the exercise again, laying on the floor for thirty minutes. Mind settles, I'm with sensation, formlessness, then mind comes back in, again and again. Here is a question: It does seem like I am efforting to keep attention on sensations. When it moves away, I catch it at some point, and move it back to sensations. I cannot find this "I" that is doing this, but there is this intention, so how does life move independently from intention and attention?

Yes, there is attention moving from an object to another object and you see that there is no you doing this. Now you want to know how this is done : is there an I, a you who wants to know ? Look.

Warissem

[dc74]

Yes, a stubbed toe and pain are one, even two different concepts are used : do you see this ? The same with a tooth pain or a body running.

Only my mind divides them up, yes I see this. I do see that cause and effect are thoughts.

Seems like you keep saying the same thing: Thoughts are unreal, move towards directly experiencing what is happening on the level of sensation. Is this true?

[warissem]

Hi David

Seems like you keep saying the same thing: Thoughts are unreal, move towards directly experiencing what is happening on the level of sensation. Is this true?

Yes, thoughts are known but what they say is not real. Sometimes a concept or an image point to an object which is experienced (a car, a tree, ...), sometimes a concept or an image point to nothing (you, me, unicorn, society, ...).

Is there a past and a future outside of thoughts ?

Warissem

[dc74]

No past or future outside of thoughts.

When meditating today I saw how the thought came in after an experience, it was really something. I recognized how the “I” tried to claim something that happened independently. That was powerful.

What is real?

[warissem]

Hi David

When meditating today I saw how the thought came in after an experience, it was really something. I recognized how the “I” tried to claim something that happened independently. That was powerful.

Yes, it liberates energy when it is seen the first time. Now, you said the "I" tried to claim .... what is this "I" made of ?

What is real?

Look for yourself.

Best wishes

Warissem

[dc74]

Something is happening, and it seems to be happening with me but it seems to keep happening.

Real. Don’t know what is real. Thoughts are not. All can be experienced as sensations.

[dc74]

Without me, that is.

[warissem]

Hi David

Something is happening, and it seems to be happening with me but it seems to keep happening.

What is "me" in your answer. Look at it and describe it.

Does "what is happening" need you to happen ?

Real. Don’t know what is real. Thoughts are not. All can be experienced as sensations.

Thoughts are but their content is not real. Yes, all experience is sensation (known through five senses).

Are sensations separate from the knowing of them ? Look

Are thoughts separate from the knowing of them ? Look

Is there anything if there is no knowing of it ?

Knowing used here = being aware.


Thank you

warissem

[dc74]

What is "me" in your answer. Look at it and describe it.

Does "what is happening" need you to happen ?

The me is a fantasy.

Are sensations separate from the knowing of them ? Look

Are thoughts separate from the knowing of them ? Look

Well shit, mind blown. The knowing/being aware of thoughts is not separate from the thoughts. Or the sensations. There is no "I" aware of sensations or thoughts, there is no separation. Because there is no "I", there is no separation, so everything is just happening without this "i" interface fantasy.

Is there anything if there is no knowing of it ?

Knowing/being aware and the content of the awareness are the same thing, there is only one thing.

Thoughts are but their content is not real. Yes, all experience is sensation (known through five senses).

Thoughts are real but their content is not real. Awareness and thoughts are the same thing, they are not different things, so does this mean everything is real except content of thoughts? Is there a difference between thoughts and content of thoughts? Content is thought about thoughts, correct? What is a thought without content?

[warissem]

Hi David

The me is a fantasy.

Yes. Have you seen this or is it an intellectual conclusion ?

Well shit, mind blown. The knowing/being aware of thoughts is not separate from the thoughts. Or the sensations. There is no "I" aware of sensations or thoughts, there is no separation. Because there is no "I", there is no separation, so everything is just happening without this "i" interface fantasy.

Yes, there are a lot of beliefs but a belief cannot stand against the seeing of its fallacy.

Knowing/being aware and the content of the awareness are the same thing, there is only one thing.

Yes, they are the same "no thing". It is not a thing but no thing. There is presence, knowing. Is that seen ?

Thoughts are real but their content is not real. Awareness and thoughts are the same thing, they are not different things,

As said above, it is not a thing.

so does this mean everything is real except content of thoughts? Is there a difference between thoughts and content of thoughts? Content is thought about thoughts, correct? What is a thought without content?

Yes, there is no thought without the content. The thought and the content are one, this is said only to make you understand that thoughts are coming and going and don't lean on them. There are thoughts which point to some object, there are thoughts which point to other thoughts and there are thoughts which point to nothing. You can play with this : find examples of these 3 kinds of thoughts.

An exercise for you :

In the evening, you are lying on the bed, can you choose the moment you fall asleep ?

Can you choose to not see the screen in front of you with eyes open ?

Can you choose to not hear the sounds around ?

Have you ever chosen something ? If so, give an example.

Thank you

Warissem

[dc74]

Thank you for your guidance.

Yes. Have you seen this or is it an intellectual conclusion ?

This me is a fantasy. I have seen to be true and experience it as true. There seems to be a habit of self-referencing, but it no longer has any weight.

Yes, they are the same "no thing". It is not a thing but no thing. There is presence, knowing. Is that seen ?

There is presence, knowing, and what is known is the same as the knowing. I do not know what you mean by no thing, if there is a no-thing, is anything a thing? Is presence a thing? The split between awareness and what is being aware'd is no longer and experience is changing.

Yes, there is no thought without the content. The thought and the content are one, this is said only to make you understand that thoughts are coming and going and don't lean on them. There are thoughts which point to some object, there are thoughts which point to other thoughts and there are thoughts which point to nothing. You can play with this : find examples of these 3 kinds of thoughts.

There are thoughts about an object, that bookshelf is tall, for example. There are thoughts which point to other thoughts, this is thought arguing with itself, "I think I will go out," , "no, it looks like it will rain." Thoughts which point to nothing, I am less sure about that, perhaps song lyrics going through my head?

In the evening, you are lying on the bed, can you choose the moment you fall asleep ?

Can you choose to not see the screen in front of you with eyes open ?

Can you choose to not hear the sounds around ?

NO, No, and No.

Have you ever chosen something ? If so, give an example.

Mind comes in after the fact and says, "I did that", after something is already happening. This is being seen more and more with direct observation. I've never chosen, things seem to happen in an impersonal way and my "I" would say he has been along for the ride. Now that has faded, that sense of "my" ride, now it is ride, happening. My "I" before always felt powerless, even a victim of this ride, even though it is an interesting ride, now just ride. No "I" has ever been here, and this has always been known somehow.



I have been reading through the pages on the LU App. This has been a powerful practice. "Something is Happening" is there, and we are asked to repeat this. In my direct experience, this is all that can be said with certainty. Perhaps even more accurately, "Something seems to to be happening."

"What is real", that is just a thought, a question, no question is any different than any other, just mind, just thought.

[warissem]

Hi David

This me is a fantasy. I have seen to be true and experience it as true. There seems to be a habit of self-referencing, but it no longer has any weight.

Yes, there is still "I" thought arising but you know it has nos substance. Anyway, the word "I" is still used to communicate.

There is presence, knowing, and what is known is the same as the knowing. I do not know what you mean by no thing, if there is a no-thing, is anything a thing? Is presence a thing? The split between awareness and what is being aware'd is no longer and experience is changing.

I mean it is not a thing, it does not have a shape, a form, etc ...

There are thoughts about an object, that bookshelf is tall, for example. There are thoughts which point to other thoughts, this is thought arguing with itself, "I think I will go out," , "no, it looks like it will rain." Thoughts which point to nothing, I am less sure about that, perhaps song lyrics going through my head?

Thoughts which point to nothing : examples like unicorn, I, me, you, ...

NO, No, and No.
Mind comes in after the fact and says, "I did that", after something is already happening. This is being seen more and more with direct observation. I've never chosen, things seem to happen in an impersonal way and my "I" would say he has been along for the ride. Now that has faded, that sense of "my" ride, now it is ride, happening. My "I" before always felt powerless, even a victim of this ride, even though it is an interesting ride, now just ride. No "I" has ever been here, and this has always been known somehow.

Yes, good observation about no choser, no I.

Now, I recommend to you a walk in a park and enjoy what is going on then describe what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, sensations. The first trial : describe it as you are used to do it. The second trial : describe it without using "I".

Thank you

Warissem

[dc74]

Now, I recommend to you a walk in a park and enjoy what is going on then describe what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, sensations. The first trial : describe it as you are used to do it. The second trial : describe it without using "I".

First: I see the trees, the ocean, I feel the sand underneath my feet, the breeze on my skin, the ocean rushing against my ankles, the smell of the sea, the trees moving, my mind rambling on about nothing, thoughts about thoughts, the sound of the waves crashing, voices.

Second: Seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling, mind coming in, my attention moving towards it, then away from it, seems to be a me that catches identification with the mind, back to sensations, feeling awareness one with senses.

[warissem]

Hi David

Second: Seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling, mind coming in, my attention moving towards it, then away from it, seems to be a me that catches identification with the mind, back to sensations, feeling awareness one with senses.

Is it YOUR attention ?

How does this me manifest itself in direct experience ?

Is there "feeling awareness", what do you mean ?

warissem