Rio's corner

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

However, is an apple actually known?

An actual apple is not known.
AE of color is known directly, AE of taste is known directly, AE of sensation is known directly, AE of smell is known directly. None of these 4 AE's (color,taste,sensation,smell) suggest anything about an apple.
Then there is AE of thoughts known at face value.
There is AE of thought (label apple) which is also known directly. Then there is AE of other thoughts (about apple) which is also known directly.

Great....it seems you are clear about actual experience and what LOOKING is...as LOOKING is simply looking at your direct actual experience in every moment.

So...going back to the 'refrigerator'....can a refrigerator be found in actual experience?

Just to ensure that it is all crystal clear....here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily ACTIVITIES, OBJECTS AND EMOTIONS simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per following example.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down objects, emotions and daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

So...going back to the 'refrigerator'....can a refrigerator be found in actual experience?

What is known, is the AE of color and an AE of thought labeling it 'refrigerator'
What is known, is the AE of sound and an AE of thought labeling it as 'refrigerator humming'
What is known, is the AE of sensation and an AE of thought labeling it 'touching the refrigerator'
What is known, are the AE of thoughts (about refrigerator)
There is no actual refrigerator to be found in Actual Experience

Just break down objects, emotions and daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Here is one example from my 'Looking':

Thought about washing the dishes, simply = thought
Seeing the dishes , simply = color
Thought about 'should have done some daily', simply = thought
Feeling the stress of doing so many dishes, simply = emotion
Hearing the sound of running water, simply = sound
Feeling the warmth of the water, simply = sensation
Seeing the dish scrubber, simply = color
Holding the dish scrubber, simply = sensation
Smelling dish detergent, simply = smell
Seeing the bubbles, simple = color
Hearing the sound of scrubbing the dishes, simply = sound
Feeling the satisfaction of finishing the dishes, simply = emotion

I will report back with more examples tomorrow.

thanks
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio...I will wait for your other examples before I respond. :)

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,
one more example:

Having Lunch outdoors with a friend-

Seeing the table, simply = color
Hearing the cars whizzing by, simply = sound
Feeling the breeze, simply = sensation
Thought hoping it won't rain, simply = thought
Thought about why is my friend taking so long to get here, simply = thought
Feeling some frustration, simply = emotion
Seeing my friend arrive, simply = color
Hearing my friend's voice, simply = sound
Feeling relieved to see my friend, simply = emotion
Thought about selecting the order, simply = thought
Seeing the menu, simply = color
Seeing the server, simply = color
Hearing the server speak, simply = sound
Seeing the food , simply = color
Smelling the food, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the food, simply = sensation
Thought about 'wonder how is the taste', simply = thought
Feeling the excitement to taste the food, simply = emotion
Tasting the food, simply = taste
Thought suggesting it is spicy, simply = thought

thanks
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

Nice LOOKING! :)

So...going back to the 'refrigerator'....can a refrigerator be found in actual experience?

What is known, is the AE of color and an AE of thought labeling it 'refrigerator'
What is known, is the AE of sound and an AE of thought labeling it as 'refrigerator humming'
What is known, is the AE of sensation and an AE of thought labeling it 'touching the refrigerator'
What is known, are the AE of thoughts (about refrigerator)
There is no actual refrigerator to be found in Actual Experience

Lovely breakdown…lovely LOOKING, thank you!

What is known, is the AE of sensation and an AE of thought labeling it 'touching the refrigerator'

There is another component to this as well. Yes, there is only sensation from the point of view of touch, and....

Can a solid object be found in your direct actual experience? Can a solid hand or a solid refrigerator be found in/as actual experience?

Here is one example from my 'Looking'

Thank you for such comprehensive examples of breaking down what thought considers to be experiences, into what actual experience is. There is one area we need to look at….the area of emotions.

We will look at a couple of examples that you provided…starting with the idea of ‘stress’ first.

Feeling the stress of doing so many dishes, simply = emotion

Sit quietly somewhere and take in a couple of breaths to settle the dust….then close your eyes.

Bring to mind a stressful situation but nothing that will overwhelm you, but something that causes a little stress/anxiety….

…and notice the sensations that arise in the body for a few moments. Notice also where in the body you feel them.

Then I want you to LOOK while still paying attention to the sensations and answer the following questions….

Without thought, can it be known that these sensations are something called ‘stress’ or ‘anxiety’?

Does the actual experience of sensation itself suggest in any way that it is stress/anxiety, or it is thought that overlays the sensation with label, plus stories about what stress is, plus further stories of why you are feeling stress?

When LOOKING at your direct actual experience of 'stress', can 'stress' be found or simply AE of sensation plus AE of thought?


Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Can a solid object be found in your direct actual experience? Can a solid hand or a solid refrigerator be found in/as actual experience?

A solid object cannot be found in direct actual experience.
There is only AE of sensation, which does not suggest anything. It is the AE of thought that suggests a solid hand and a solid refrigerator. That's just words pointing to more words. There is no actual solid object to be found in thoughts. A solid hand or a solid refrigerator cannot be found in actual experience.

Without thought, can it be known that these sensations are something called ‘stress’ or ‘anxiety’?

The AE of sensation does not suggest anything. It is thought that labels it. Without thought it cannot be known that these sensations are something called 'stress' or 'anxiety'.

Does the actual experience of sensation itself suggest in any way that it is stress/anxiety, or it is thought that overlays the sensation with label, plus stories about what stress is, plus further stories of why you are feeling stress?

By itself the AE of sensation doesn't suggest that it is stress/anxiety. Thought then overlays the sensation with labels of 'stress' and 'anxiety'. Followed by more AE of thoughts about a lot of stories.
Which in turn seems to amplify the sensation or generate a different sensation pertaining to those stories and past incidents.
AE of thoughts of stories were followed by AE of sensations of a different kind than the previous and felt more intense.

However LOOKING directly at the AE of sensation-
The AE of sensation is simply the AE of sensation and it didn't actually feel 'bad' or 'uncomfortable' as thought was suggesting. Each AE of sensation just had a unique flavor to them with absolutely no suggestions of any kind.

When LOOKING at your direct actual experience of 'stress', can 'stress' be found or simply AE of sensation plus AE of thought?
'Stress' cannot be found in actual experience. What is known is just an AE of sensation and an AE of thought overlaying labels and more AE of thoughts with stories.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

Great LOOKING! :)

When LOOKING at your direct actual experience of 'stress', can 'stress' be found or simply AE of sensation plus AE of thought?

'Stress' cannot be found in actual experience. What is known is just an AE of sensation and an AE of thought overlaying labels and more AE of thoughts with stories.

Yes! :) There is no inherent stress in the sensation itself, it is thought that points to sensation and describes it as something called stress.

The label ‘stress’ is AE of thought and not AE of ‘stress’
Sensation labelled ‘stress’ is AE of sensation and not AE of ‘stress’
Thoughts about ‘stress’, what it is and the story of what created the ‘stress’ are AE of thought and not AE of ‘stress’.
So sensation + thoughts about stress are known but ‘stress’ cannot be found as actual experience.

By itself the AE of sensation doesn't suggest that it is stress/anxiety. Thought then overlays the sensation with labels of 'stress' and 'anxiety'. Followed by more AE of thoughts about a lot of stories.
Which in turn seems to amplify the sensation or generate a different sensation pertaining to those stories and past incidents.
AE of thoughts of stories were followed by AE of sensations of a different kind than the previous and felt more intense.

Bring to mind the same story you used in the above exercise – or use a different one, it doesn’t matter….and notice the ‘stress’ wherever it is in the body....

...Then go to the sensation at the soles of the feet.

Would you label that sensation ‘stress’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your body labelled ‘stress’…what is the difference between them?

A little bit more intense, but apart from that – any difference?
And without thought, could the idea of 'intense' be known?

Feeling the satisfaction of finishing the dishes, simply = emotion

You may have to look more carefully with this one.

I would like you to think of something you did that that brought you satisfaction.

Does the feeling ‘satisfaction’ actually comprise of body sensations?

Feeling some frustration, simply = emotion

If you had to describe this sensation, how would you describe it? Can it be described? Pretend you are describing to someone who has never had a body sensation….can it be described?


The label ‘frustration’ is AE of thought and not AE of frustration
Sensation labelled ‘frustration’ is AE of sensation and not AE of frustration
Thoughts about frustration, what it is and the story of what created the frustration are AE of thought and not AE of frustration.

So what is known, what is actual is label (thought) + sensation + thoughts about ‘frustration’ only.
Is this clear?

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Would you label that sensation ‘stress’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

I would not label this sensation as 'stress'. It is an undefined tingling sensation.
It has a more neutral tone to it compared to the sensation labelled stress.
Also there are far less stories(AE's of thought -about) associated with this sensation if any.

A little bit more intense, but apart from that – any difference?

They are just 2 unique sensations which in themselves don't suggest anything. It is thought that labels it as 'good','bad','pleasant','unpleasant'.
Even the so called intensity labeled by thought felt more as a result of the amount of attention I was giving to the sensation.

And without thought, could the idea of 'intense' be known?

The idea of 'intense' is known as an AE of thought. Without thought it cannot be known.

Does the feeling ‘satisfaction’ actually comprise of body sensations?

The feeling 'satisfaction' actually does not comprise of any sensations . It is more like the absence of the earlier sensation That I labeled as 'frustration'. There was no AE of sensation, just an AE of thought suggesting that I feel satisfied.

If you had to describe this sensation, how would you describe it? Can it be described? Pretend you are describing to someone who has never had a body sensation….can it be described?

All descriptions will fall short of the actual AE of sensation. Someone will have to have an actual experience of the sensation for themselves in order to know it truly.
It's impossible to describe sensations to another person who has never had a sensation. Its like describing the world of color to a person who has been blind all their life. All and all it cannot be described.
Furthermore, it's an inner experience and not a shared experience like the humming of a 'refrigerator'. By the way my refrigerator has started making much louder humming noises all of a sudden since yesterday :)

So what is known, what is actual is label (thought) + sensation + thoughts about ‘frustration’ only.
Is this clear?

Yes, this is clear.
There is a certain AE of sensation which thought then labels as 'frustration'. And then there are more AE's of thought about 'frustration'. However there is no AE of frustration.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

Does the feeling ‘satisfaction’ actually comprise of body sensations?

The feeling 'satisfaction' actually does not comprise of any sensations . It is more like the absence of the earlier sensation That I labeled as 'frustration'. There was no AE of sensation, just an AE of thought suggesting that I feel satisfied.

Lovely! It is great that you noticed that the ‘feeling’ labelled as satisfaction is actually the AE of thought and was pointing to nothing more than thoughts about thought.

If you had to describe this sensation, how would you describe it? Can it be described? Pretend you are describing to someone who has never had a body sensation….can it be described?

All descriptions will fall short of the actual AE of sensation. Someone will have to have an actual experience of the sensation for themselves in order to know it truly.
It's impossible to describe sensations to another person who has never had a sensation. Its like describing the world of color to a person who has been blind all their life. All and all it cannot be described.

Exactly. Actual experience cannot be described. Without thought, you cannot know what colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought is…they cannot be described, they are indescribable.

Let’s say, or example, the taste of ice-cream. You can describe ice-cream, that is what it is made from and that it is cold, tastes creamy, vanilla or chocolate, and you can describe what the word ‘taste’ refers to, however, you cannot describe the experience of/as taste…because there is no ‘taste’, there is only experience which thought is describing as taste. So you can describe the components that make up ice-cream, but not the taste itself. In other words you can't actually describe the taste of ice-cream, just like you can't describe the colour blue.

By the way my refrigerator has started making much louder humming noises all of a sudden since yesterday :)

Thank you for the laugh! The refrigerator has begun to sing to you! ;) :)

Okay…so let’s move on and look at the nature of thought and how it perpetuates the idea of the finite separate self.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts:

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

If you can’t do the exercise as you go about your daily business, put aside 10-15 minutes or longer to sit quietly somewhere to just observe thoughts as they arise and subside. If need be, do a couple of sittings throughout your day.

Let me know how you go.

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Let me know how you go.

I did the exercise several times throughout the day and also tried it by sitting quietly.
Nothing significant to report so far other than noticing a change in the speed at which thoughts occur. Paying more attention seemed to slow the thoughts down and gaps were more apparent.
Should I can continue doing the exercise for another day and observe them more closely?

thanks
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

Let me know how you go.

I did the exercise several times throughout the day and also tried it by sitting quietly.
Nothing significant to report so far other than noticing a change in the speed at which thoughts occur. Paying more attention seemed to slow the thoughts down and gaps were more apparent.
Should I can continue doing the exercise for another day and observe them more closely?

The objective of the exercise was to notice each thought as it arose and subsided. As long as you were able to do that then all is fine. The exercise was also a prelude to the following one, because if you can't see each thought as it arises, then the following exercise would prove a little difficult.

So the following exercise is an exercise on thoughts. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

Where are they coming from and going to?

I cannot tell where they come from and to where they disappear.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I did not do anything to make a particular thought or a series of thoughts appear. They come and go as they please :)

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I could not have done anything instead, to make a different thought appear at the exact moment.
There is actual experience (sight, sound, taste, smell, thought) and then the next thought just appears. There is no time/option to choose what should appear next.
Even the so called choice 'do this or that' that appears in just another thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, I cannot predict my next thought.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, I do not see any option to select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts. Only a single thought arises all on it's own at a time. I do not see multiple thoughts from which to choose. Also the nature of the thought/content of the thought is not in my control. So cannot choose to only have pleasant thoughts.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, I cannot choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts. They arise and run their course. Then get replaced by other thoughts in due time. But not in my control as to how long the negative thoughts will last.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No, I cannot pick and choose any kind of thought. There is only one thought that arises at any given moment and there is no option to choose from multiple thoughts before any thought arises. Also the kind of thought that will arise next is not in my control. It could be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral in nature.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, it's not possible to prevent a thought from appearing.
There are moments when a thought itself can suggest to pay attention to breathing and there can be no thoughts for that duration. However, when that will happen and how long will that last is again not in my control.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

For the most part they seem to be instantaneous and not possible to stop thinking a thought in the middle.
Sometimes they seem to be moving slower(like thinking out loud). The thought themselves may cut off other thoughts.I am not sure if this classifies as a thought or just speech(whisper). Is speech a thought taking the form of sound?
All in all it just happens and not in my control.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

When sitting quietly and observing, the thoughts seemed all over the place. I could not find any sequencing. Also they did not seem related to the previous thought. So there was no logical order, no sequence, no taking of content from previous thought, no thought following the other.
However thoughts seem to stay on point/topic when focused and engaged in an activity. Even though they might be on the same topic, they seem independent of each other. There is no particular order to them, nor do they seem to take content from previous thought, nor does one thought follow the other.

When sitting quietly and observing, There were a lot of random unrelatable images(of people and situations) that kept popping up and they were then labelled as random by thought. These images seemed to have a pull and felt as if they could start an entire night dream if entertained.


thanks
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hi Rio,

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

For the most part they seem to be instantaneous and not possible to stop thinking a thought in the middle.
Sometimes they seem to be moving slower (like thinking out loud). The thought themselves may cut off other thoughts.I am not sure if this classifies as a thought or just speech(whisper). Is speech a thought taking the form of sound?
All in all it just happens and not in my control.

Good question!

Have you actually ever heard your thoughts? Just like mental images, are they the actual object or just thoughts about the object?

How is it known that thoughts have a voice, and that the voice is your voice?

How is it known that thoughts appear in your head and become the ‘voice in your head’?

Have you ever been able to record thoughts as they spontaneously arise and then play them back in order to hear them, and to hear that they are in your voice?

So do thoughts actually have a sound? Or is the ‘voice in the head’ simply thoughts about sound?

Can thoughts be felt, smelled, tasted, heard or seen, or are they just known?

Here is a fun and yet illuminating experiment to do. You might just want to find a place where you are alone…otherwise others might think you are crazy!!! :)

So sit quietly somewhere, close your eyes and then begin to speak out loud. It doesn’t matter the subject matter, just start talking out loud.

Now as you are doing that, see if you can find the thoughts that seem to be formulating the words you are speaking.

Can you find these thoughts or is speaking just happening? Let me know what you find!

When sitting quietly and observing, There were a lot of random unrelatable images(of people and situations) that kept popping up and they were then labelled as random by thought. These images seemed to have a pull and felt as if they could start an entire night dream if entertained.

Yes...we have learned to entertain our thoughts. It has become a habit and we find ourselves living in the past, or in a future based on a past, or trying to strategise a future to avoid the past! It takes a lot of mind training in order to learn to be in the present moment and not follow the delights/sorrows of thought, be they words or mental images.

Kay

[rio]

Hi Kay,

This was a bit tough since thoughts were talking about themselves.

Have you actually ever heard your thoughts? Just like mental images, are they the actual object or just thoughts about the object?

I have not actually heard my thoughts. There is no sound aspect to thoughts to be heard. Thoughts are not the AE of sound, sight, color, taste and smell. Thoughts just label other AE's(including the AE of thought) and make suggestions. The AE of thought is just some words that are known. There is no sound, voice, location in the actual experience, just some words about something.

How is it known that thoughts have a voice, and that the voice is your voice?

It is not known directly that thoughts have a voice. The AE of thought itself has no voice/my voice. Just another thought suggesting that it is the case.

How is it known that thoughts appear in your head and become the ‘voice in your head’?

There is just AE of thought that appears spontaneously. The AE in itself doesn't suggest any particular location. Then there is another thought suggesting that 'thoughts appear in my head'. It is not known directly that they appear in my head or where for that matter.
Similarly it is not known directly to be my voice in my head. The AE of thought itself does not suggest any voice or head. Another thought simply says that about the AE of thought.

Have you ever been able to record thoughts as they spontaneously arise and then play them back in order to hear them, and to hear that they are in your voice?

It's not possible to record thoughts and play them back in order to hear them. They are just known when they spontaneously arise and then they just disappear. The AE of thought itself has no voice. It is simply suggested to be the case (that it's in my voice) by another thought.

So do thoughts actually have a sound? Or is the ‘voice in the head’ simply thoughts about sound?

Thoughts actually do not have a sound. 'voice in the head' is another AE of thought suggesting that about AE of thoughts.

Can thoughts be felt, smelled, tasted, heard or seen, or are they just known?

Thoughts(words that comprise a thought) are just known and cannot be felt, smelled, tasted, heard or seen.

Can you find these thoughts or is speaking just happening? Let me know what you find!

I did the experiment as you suggested :)
There was only AE of sound and AE of sensation(movement of mouth). AE of thought was not present when speaking.

I continued the experiment by repeating the same words first aloud and then softer and softer.
There was AE of sound and AE of sensation at first when aloud.
At one point it transitioned to AE of sensation and AE of thought.
And then finally there was just AE of thought.

thanks.
Rio

[forgetmenot]

Hello Rio,

This was a bit tough since thoughts were talking about themselves.

Becoming aware of thought – what they are, how they work etc can be somewhat challenging!

How is it known that thoughts have a voice, and that the voice is your voice?

It is not known directly that thoughts have a voice. The AE of thought itself has no voice/my voice. Just another thought suggesting that it is the case.

Yes…nice looking!

How is it known that thoughts appear in your head and become the ‘voice in your head’?

There is just AE of thought that appears spontaneously. The AE in itself doesn't suggest any particular location. Then there is another thought suggesting that 'thoughts appear in my head'. It is not known directly that they appear in my head or where for that matter.

Perfect time to segue into looking at the idea of the head

Please IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them?

Without thought, how big is your head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?

Similarly it is not known directly to be my voice in my head. The AE of thought itself does not suggest any voice or head. Another thought simply says that about the AE of thought.

Yep! :)

So do thoughts actually have a sound? Or is the ‘voice in the head’ simply thoughts about sound?

Thoughts actually do not have a sound. 'voice in the head' is another AE of thought suggesting that about AE of thoughts.

Yes, so all there is, is thoughts about thoughts being a sound called ‘my voice’. How liberating is that...to know that you are not the 'voice in the head'?

Sometimes you hear a song on the radio on your way to work or while you are cooking or doing something, and that song can stay with you all day. The song seems to play over and over again. All the intricate details are there. All the lyrics, all the notes in the guitar solo are as clear as when it was playing out of the car speakers. But really there is no music playing - no one singing, and no guitarist. It's just thought about sound.

Can thoughts be felt, smelled, tasted, heard or seen, or are they just known?

Thoughts(words that comprise a thought) are just known and cannot be felt, smelled, tasted, heard or seen.

Yes, they are simply known, just as colour, smell, sensation, sound and taste are known when they appear. You don't need a thought to tell you that a thought has arisen...just as you don't need a thought to know when you are aware of colour, sound, sensation, taste or smell.

Can you find these thoughts or is speaking just happening? Let me know what you find!

I did the experiment as you suggested :)
There was only AE of sound and AE of sensation(movement of mouth). AE of thought was not present when speaking.

Isn’t that trippy?!! All this time you thought you were speaking words that were being formulated by thought (your thoughts)…when in actuality, this isn’t the case at all. Speaking is simply happening as there are no thoughts formulating what is being said. Really shows how we are being ‘done through’ and not actually doing anything ourselves.

Kay