Ready to dive in...

[ixturtle]

Lots of this and lots of that.

A number of lovely 'as is' moments today, along with some serious ME stuff too. Questions arise though to write them down gives them solidity...

One recurring theme at the moment is desire. From that same blog as I mentioned before: "When it is constantly seen that thoughts of opinions and desires provoke personal suffering, then those thoughts tend to stop arising."

I know this isn't something to do, just to see. But when desires come up there is still a SENSE that I have a choice whether to act on them. Struggle arises, especially when the desire is strong but the ensuing suffering is obvious-- and yet still there's a belief that satisfying desire will bring some joy or freedom or happiness. I suppose the question is "to who?" And the voice screams "to ME!!!!" What was that we said about being addicted to suffering? Meanwhile, there's a growing sense of not worrying-- about rules, about fear-- which again feels like it might be reckless/negligent... (can you tell there's some serious conditioning here around this recklessness issue?)

What's "chosen" is merely a function of conditioning, yes? In prison we talk a lot about choice in this context. But we talk about it AS A CHOICE, which mindfulness and insight support. So I find myself getting a little confused right now about this issue. What's not confusing is I'm happiest when I'm just noticing what's next...

[vinceschubert]

In prison we talk a lot about choice in this context. But we talk about it AS A CHOICE, which mindfulness and insight support. So I find myself getting a little confused right now about this issue.

This jumps out as important.
It's not appropriate to bring the 'choice-less-ness' we have been speaking of, to bear on that situation. It is only when the personal is 'seen through' that this can be appreciated.
The victim status of the inmates is a choice from within the story. They plead no choice as their story needs to absolve them from the consequences of the actions that put them there.
Just as when you can see clearly that someone is causing their own dis-ease with a shitty attitude, but wouldn't begin to tell them that.
A (seeming) paradox here is that it takes a strong ego to be able to see the delusion of ego.

gotta go, back in an hour or so...

[vinceschubert]

along with some serious ME stuff too. Questions arise though to write them down gives them solidity...

Ok, you could be forgiven for thinking that we don't want these things, but, but they are what IS. We don't need preferences although they exist. The subtle (or not so subtle) idea that these are Not OK is a preference that gives them life (energy).
If "serious ME stuff" is not preferred, and 'not preferring' is not preferred, we are in a bit of a fix, aren't we. What to do (or not do)
There is NOTHING to do, except observe, to notice that What IS, is what IS.
Life-ing encompasses the whole spectrum. How could it be otherwise ?
We are not outcome oriented here. We are not looking to achieve something, though from within the story it certainly seems that way.
If we are not fixated on an outcome, and we are not looking to achieve anything, what the....!??

[ixturtle]

it seems my long post of last night didn't get submitted... was really looking forward (ha ha ha-- especially since it was about "time") to your response. gist was-- yes, preferring not to prefer is a butt burner. time doesn't exist outside of the mind while conditioning is clearly subject to time and this created some confusion YESTERDAY. oh and also something about non-separation (or lack there of). i'm off now, but will try to write later. this time i will push SUMBIT....

[ixturtle]

Feeling very ordinary (in a semi-caught up in stuff way) today-- occasionally remembering to notice the arising of that too. Also noticing preferring something different when its there. When not attending to the noticing, the story of ME is on autopilot without question. Vigilance feels necessary and yet that too is a story. Well, that's all I have for the eve... will dream perhaps of awakening... ;-)

Thank you for all your offerings. Hoping to find time sometime soon to re-read it all as there is much wisdom here that can be chewed and re-chewed. Deep bow.

-ix

[vinceschubert]

When not attending to the noticing, the story of ME is on autopilot without question.

This is a tricky one. When on autopilot, there is no Me. Conditioning and preferences run the show.
Me only exists when thought is active. Self conscious-ness creates self.
Investigate this, is it true ?

[ixturtle]

When on autopilot, there is no Me. Conditioning and preferences run the show.
Me only exists when thought is active. Self conscious-ness creates self.
Investigate this, is it true ?

Just home from walking the dog and noticed en route me turning at a corner that I hadn't planned to turn at... that is autopilot of body, but meanwhile the mind was totally engaged in some story or another (can't even remember which one!). Clearly there was condition and preferences running on both body and mind levels. But I guess what I meant about autopilot is not that there isn't a me running the show but actually, there is very much a story of ME running the show. "Got to do this. Can't forget that. Blah blah blah." So thought is certainly active and there's a whole lot of self showing up. It's only when I notice it running (rather than simply being caught up in the running) that there is some space from it all. This currently feels like it happens less as a "practice" -- which it has for years-- and more of a natural noticing, which is nice.

Still trying to sort out what "self consciousness creates self" is pointing too-- just simply that when consciousness is focused on an imaginary "self" then a sense of "self" appears? Of course then shifting the focus of consciousness off the self should retract the energy that creates/sustains the illusion. Noticing the noise of the mind that is feeding "self" (rather than focusing on the self itself) supports this retraction. The tricky part is seeing that there's no "me" doing the noticing, there's just noticing happening-- it seems like as soon as noticing happens, a more refined story jumps in about this process and that story has a subtle "me" in it.

So all this makes me think that the way you are using the word autopilot is actually more like the allowing, flow, grace that happens when the mind gets out of the way. But maybe I've got it wrong...

[vinceschubert]

there is very much a story of ME running the show.

Hmm, there is the story of you playing out at at thought level. It would only be running the show if there were responses to it behaviorally or emotionally.
Meanwhile the dog walking (and direction choosing) were totally without a me to direct.
Maybe a good analogy would be the Ads on tv. You only pay attention to those that trigger an interest. The others happen in the background. (They may still have an affect, but that is seen and abandoned).
You don't believe the advertisements just because they are playing, do you ?

Still trying to sort out what "self consciousness creates self" is pointing too-- just simply that when consciousness is focused on an imaginary "self" then a sense of "self" appears? Of course then shifting the focus of consciousness off the self should retract the energy that creates/sustains the illusion.

You sorted that out well.

[ixturtle]

OK-- the crux of what you're saying is that the blah blah blah story only runs the show if there is a behavioral or emotional response. otherwise it's just noise, an aspect of the present moment show, of the one arising that is experience as it is happening. so in other words, stop making the blah blah blah the enemy?

[vinceschubert]

stop making the blah blah blah the enemy?

Yes, it's just there, so live with it. Maybe it will change later, maybe not. But now we have recognition of what its' rightful place is.
THIS IS IT !

[ixturtle]

OK...

this thought arises though: part of the reason I don't watch TV is because even though the conscious brain can ignore the images being sold, many of the images still get underneath my skin -- mostly promoting a subtle layer of dissatisfaction. it seems the same with the blah blah blah... i can consciously ignore it as irrelevant but there is a residue that seems to nevertheless penetrate the unconscious. behavior and surface emotion is stable but there's murkyness below. i know you talked about the irrelevance of the conscious/unconscious distinction just a few posts ago, but it still feels real.

also, primary relationship just landed back into my physical space and it seems practically impossible to keep any assemblance of no-self when in some sense the relationship is defined as ME and YOU. aggggg! any help or wise words would be most appreciated....

[ixturtle]

ME and YOU meaning ME and HIM of course! ;-)

[vinceschubert]

mostly promoting a subtle layer of dissatisfaction.

This was meant to cover that; "(They may still have an affect, but that is seen and abandoned)."
It wasn't a great analogy. The point being, that the habitual background of thought (like the ads) will be there until they aren't. It doesn't mean that you are not awake...

it seems practically impossible to keep any assemblance of no-self

Don't try. Let self run rampant. Just observe. That is all. Witness without opinion or judgement.

the relationship is defined as ME and YOU

Great story. Relationship is a concept. Only real to mind.
"defined as.." More words (thoughts) another concept.
Are you trying to fit (play) a character in a story. Trying to match the definition?
This is a great test. Your buttons will be expertly pushed, by a pusher that doesn't even know he is doing it.
You will SEE it happen (before, during or after)
He wont even know that you are different as he relates to his story of you and not actual you (you know what i mean by you...)
You will discover much about your processes. enjoy.

[ixturtle]

Relationship is a concept. Only real to mind.

Yes. This is helpful. Thank you.

It doesn't mean that you are not awake...

OK. i get that on some level every conscious being is awake, they just aren't awake to the fact that there is awakeness present because they are so lost in "I".

And there is recognition that here there is a little bit of experiential and a lot of intellectual grasping of the conundrum and the space beyond it.

And i also know that anything i write to the contrary is just a spewing of meaningless story... BUT

ready for the rant?

BUT MY WHOLE LIFE PEOPLE ALWAYS ASSUME I GET SOMETHING BEFORE I DO AND THEN I'M STUCK TRYING TO BE ONE THING WHILE QUIETLY AND ANXIOUSLY WORKING MY ASS OFF TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE. THAT'S THE OLD OLD STORY AND DOESN'T FULLY APPLY HERE, AND IN SOME SENSE HASN'T APPLIED IN A NUMBER OF YEARS, BUT THERE ARE SIMILARITIES THAT STRIKE A NERVE. FOR ONCE I WANT TO BE IN THE REMEDIAL CLASS WHERE ITS OK TO NOT GET IT, TO BE A SLOW LEARNER. SO NO, I DO NOT FEEL I GET IT. I DO NOT FEEL AWAKE. AND EVEN AS I WRITE THIS I SEE THE WHOLE PAINFUL STORY IN VIEW BUT THERE IS SO MUCH GRIEF ATTACHED. ANYWAY, CAN WE GO BACK PLEASE AND START OVER? LIKE HERE I AM, AND I'M TOTALLY LOST IN "I", WHICH FEELS LIKE THE TRUTH. WHERE TO LOOK? WHAT TO DO? HOW TO GET OUT FROM UNDER ALL THIS SUFFERING? AS I WRITE THOSE QUESTIONS I CAN ALREADY SEE YOUR ANSWERS POP UP ON THE SCREEN, BUT IT FEELS LIKE THEY DON'T PENETRATE, THAT NOTHING CHANGES IN ANY FUNDAMENTAL WAY. WHICH I KNOW IS ONE OF THE ANSWERS-- NOTHING DOES "CHANGE" ON ACCOUNT OF BEING AWAKE EXCEPT ONE'S RELATIONSHIP TO WHAT'S HERE, WHICH OF COURSE DOES CHANGE THINGS-- BUT THAT CHANGE IN RELATIONSHIP IS VITAL AND IT FEELS LIKE THAT CHANGE ISN'T HERE. WHICH ISN'T QUITE TRUE BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN SOME SOFTENING IN RELATIONSHIP TO WHAT'S HERE-- I GUESS JUST NOT IN THE WAY THAT I EXPECT OR WANT. BUT WHAT IS TRUE IS THAT I STILL FEEL LIKE THERE'S A SELF THAT DECIDES STUFF AND DOES STUFF-- I'M SUSPICIOUS OF IT OF COURSE, AND I QUESTION IT, BUT THAT "STORY" STILL FEELS LIKE WHAT'S TRUE AND IT FEELS LIKE IF I WERE REALLY AWAKE THAN THERE WOULD BE NO DOUBT OF IT AS ILLUSION.

ok. now that that's out--
(you did say once that rants were good...)
blessings to you for many things,
--ix

[vinceschubert]

HOW TO GET OUT FROM UNDER ALL THIS SUFFERING?

this may be a key; Tell me how vince would answer this...