who is running the show

[765badgeR]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have been listening to some non-duality speakers for some time now. What they say has resonated very deeply and sometimes there’s an understanding that life is just unfolding and no one is doing it. However, the feeling of I is very much present and I’m not sure if it does exist or it doesn’t. there is also fear of loosing what I have.

What are you looking for at LU?
There is constant yearning for knowing more, pull towards search to find out and understand more. I can’t help it and I’m feeling exhausted. I want to realise what is this I and what is really happening.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't really know how to look deeper into the I. I suppose the direction on how to investigate the reality . also some questions that will point to where I need to look in order to realise what has not been realised yet.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
More than 10 years of meditation practice, some retreats, but mostly reading and listening to spiritual teachers and alike.
Currently I stopped meditating, mostly listening to non-duality speakers.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi 765badgeR

My name is Tanya and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self and what it appears to be. At LU we are described as guides and not teachers as our role is to directly point to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and some dialogue. I will ask you to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings about a perception shift.


Please post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, please be sure to write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.I ask that you put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

To help with LOOKING (not thinking) the exercise below should help show how to LOOK :)

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up. Here is an example to illustrate the difference: If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking. For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment



You mentioned in your initial post "the feeling of I is very much present and I’m not sure if it does exist or it doesn’t."

So lets take a LOOK at that feeling. Does the feeling itself tell you that you are an I or there simply a feeling or sensation appearing?

Is this feeling of a self or is it a feeling of something else?



From,

Tanya Williams

[765badgeR]

Hi Tanya

Thank you for the reply. I'm really grateful for your help.

Does the feeling itself tell you that you are an I or there simply a feeling or sensation appearing?

That is a very good question. When I looked at the feeling of an "I" I couldn’t find the exact location for it. But it consist of sensations in the body, thoughts and memories (which are thoughts anyway), seeing objects and people around that are separate from me, sounds. I'd say that the "I" is five body senses and thoughts - "my thoughts and feelings - "my feelings"

Is this feeling of a self or is it a feeling of something else?

Those five senses, thoughts and feelings give me a sense of a "self" or an "I", but it's nowhere to be found separately. so it's all separate parts of something else.

I'm looking forward to continue our dialog.
many thanks

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi 765badgeR! :)

Thank you for the reply. I'm really grateful for your help.

You’re welcome :)

I'd say that the "I" is five body senses and thoughts - "my thoughts and feelings - "my feelings"

Yes,when you look for it it can’t be found, don’t you find that interesting? :)

Are the five senses saying they are an I. Does the seeing say “I see?” or the hearing/sound say “Hey! Listen to this”? I feel it would be helpful to explore the actual experience of the senses to discover whether an ‘I’ has anything to do with them or not.

Let’s start with seeing :)
The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on its own. Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found? What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Is this feeling of a self or is it a feeling of something else?

Those five senses, thoughts and feelings give me a sense of a "self" or an "I", but it's nowhere to be found separately. so it's all separate parts of something else.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Are you an image? A sound? A Taste? A smell? A sensation? A thought?

Much love,

Tanya

[765badgeR]

Hi Tanya

I'd say that the "I" is five body senses and thoughts - "my thoughts and feelings - "my feelings"
Yes,when you look for it it can’t be found, don’t you find that interesting? :)

Yes, that was brilliant! I’ve been reading about it but never looked at self in this way. :)

Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

No, it’s just blackness

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found? What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

There’s no me/I but just blackness and nothing else.
There is no see-er but yes, a thought “I see blackness” appeared.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

All of it. It looks that complex combination of all that makes the sense of self.

Are you an image? A sound? A Taste? A smell? A sensation? A thought?

I don’t know, I’m totally confused now. I’m none of them separately but all together yes, it again feels like I exists. I’m not sure.
Many thanks :)

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi 765badgeR

Yes, that was brilliant! I’ve been reading about it but never looked at self in this way. :)

Great! :)Looking for the self is like looking for your lost keys.You swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them.
You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.
This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

All of it. It looks that complex combination of all that makes the sense of self.

Is this a 'normal' cultural response that is a logical, mental conclusion?

Ok,so lets explore this complex combination of SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Are you an image? A sound? A Taste? A smell? A sensation? A thought?

I don’t know, I’m totally confused now. I’m none of them separately but all together yes, it again feels like I exists. I’m not sure.

Sorry if that question was confusing <3
We have to be careful with our language here. Is it a feeling or is it a thought conclusion?
Do we respond to thought stories?
If we do, then might an I feeling come from that?
Is that I feeling one of ownership?

You're most welcome :)
Much love,

Tanya

[765badgeR]

Hi Tanya

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

Yes, exactly that - reading all the books and listening to the speakers on self illusion, intellectually I get it and it seems very logical that there no one that called the I or self. and life is just what is happening every moment without anyone in control of it. I totally get it intellectually but there is a sense of the self here.

All of it. It looks that complex combination of all that makes the sense of self.
Is this a 'normal' cultural response that is a logical, mental conclusion?

you're right it's mental conclusion.

Ok,so lets explore this complex combination of SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

I have been trying to locate it - it doesn't have a location, shape or size.
No communication or any attributes. when i look at the sense of self as a different body sensations i can't find self in there.

Sorry if that question was confusing <3
We have to be careful with our language here. Is it a feeling or is it a thought conclusion?

The question on its own was not confusing. When I was looking into it I just couldn't get any investigation of the question.
Looks like it was a thought story. In this investigation we do not respond to thought stories, right?
When you say feeling do you mean feeling in the body or feeling as an emotional state?

Do we respond to thought stories?
If we do, then might an I feeling come from that?
Is that I feeling one of ownership?

yes, an I feeling comes from thought stories. sometimes it feels lees of ownership and other times more. it's difficult to explain this things. but I like this investigation.

Many thanks :)
Alex

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Alex! (Is it ok if I call you Alex instead of 765badgeR?)

Yes, exactly that - reading all the books and listening to the speakers on self illusion, intellectually I get it and it seems very logical that there no one that called the I or self. and life is just what is happening every moment without anyone in control of it. I totally get it intellectually but there is a sense of the self here.

Reading is good and very enjoyable but what actually helps see through the illusion of a separate self is questioning the validity of said self. LOOKING repeatedly to see if there is this self you’ve believed to be your whole life. Don’t ask me why but it seems repetition is key :)

So let’s continue exploring this sense of self :) Here is a little exercise about finding ‘me’ in the body.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie. Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "Alex" is located. Touch the exact location of "Alex".
Answer these questions: Were you able to find and feel "Alex" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it? What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Alex” (If any). Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

you're right it's mental conclusion.

Yes :) This investigation is about looking at what concepts/mental conclusions are taken as the actual.

The question on its own was not confusing. When I was looking into it I just couldn't get any investigation of the question.
Looks like it was a thought story. In this investigation we do not respond to thought stories, right?
When you say feeling do you mean feeling in the body or feeling as an emotional state?

Good. Sometimes questions are hard to look at <3
Yes and it’s true thought appears but the content of thoughts is not reality as you are discovering. Yes, in this investigation we don’t respond to thought stories we look at the actual direct experience (seeing,hearing,tasting,touching,smelling). We look at what is actually happening.When I say feeling I mean feeling in the body - sensations not emotions.

Do we respond to thought stories?
If we do, then might an I feeling come from that?
Is that I feeling one of ownership?

yes, an I feeling comes from thought stories. sometimes it feels lees of ownership and other times more. it's difficult to explain this things. but I like this investigation.

From an experiential perspective is ownership an actual thing?

Please describe me in detail as precisely as you can, but without any speculation or theory, the EXPERIENCE of ownership. Not thoughts ABOUT ownership, but the REAL EXPERIENCE of it.

Much love,
Tanya

[765badgeR]

Hi Tanya :)

Yes, you may call me Alex.

Reading is good and very enjoyable but what actually helps see through the illusion of a separate self is questioning the validity of said self. LOOKING repeatedly to see if there is this self you’ve believed to be your whole life.

That is why I'm here. I've been reading an listening every day and there were some moments of clarity but then it goes back to same feeling of self I felt all my life.
It's good to know that the repetition is the key, it's what we were told at school, isn't it ? :)

So let’s continue exploring this sense of self :) Here is a little exercise about finding ‘me’ in the body.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie. Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "Alex" is located. Touch the exact location of "Alex".
Answer these questions: Were you able to find and feel "Alex" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it? What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Alex” (If any). Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

I could not find alex anywhere, there is no alex in the body. In fact it can be called anything really, any name or no name at all.
I found again just body sensations. how strange is that.

From an experiential perspective is ownership an actual thing?

From experiential perspective there isn’t any ownership. it’s just a story.

Please describe me in detail as precisely as you can, but without any speculation or theory, the EXPERIENCE of ownership. Not thoughts ABOUT ownership, but the REAL EXPERIENCE of it.

Nothing owns anything. The ownership is just not there. Nothing can be owned. The ownership comes from an I thought. It’s just a story.

Many thanks :)
Alex

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Alex!

Sorry for the delay in replying. I thought I had sent you a reply on Friday but maybe I left this page before I sent it.

I could not find alex anywhere, there is no alex in the body. In fact it can be called anything really, any name or no name at all.

What/who do you think is running the show?

I found again just body sensations. how strange is that.

From an experiential perspective is ownership an actual thing?

Nothing owns anything. The ownership is just not there. Nothing can be owned. The ownership comes from an I thought. It’s just a story.

Great LOOKING :)
How did this notion of a self develop? Can you give an example of it developing in you?

You're most welcome :)
Tanya

[765badgeR]

Hi Tanya!

Sorry for the delay in replying. I thought I had sent you a reply on Friday but maybe I left this page before I sent it.

That's fine, not a problem.

I could not find alex anywhere, there is no alex in the body. In fact it can be called anything really, any name or no name at all.
What/who do you think is running the show?

mmm...not sure. As I was doing that exercise there was a thought "who is looking for alex, who is asking all the questions, who is noticing that alex is not found"
It happens quite often - there is a pause and a question - who is doing/thinking/talking? there isn't any answer.

How did this notion of a self develop? Can you give an example of it developing in you?

Great questions, Tanya. :)
it's just like there is nothing, just being, just perfect as it is, nothing can be added or taken away. seems it can last for ever and nothing more is needed. and then there is thinking happens, and I appears, thoughts appear about work, relationships etc. and I'm back into the I story. Self appears when thoughts appear.

Can you give an example of it developing in you?

I feel as "the self" most of the time but sometimes there is just being. I'm not sure how it develops in me.
Experientially I can only see it relates to thoughts and feelings. I watch this happens first thing in the morning when I wake up. It happens instantly and it stays here all day until fall asleep at night.

Many thanks :)
Alex

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Alex! :)

Sorry for the delay in replying. I thought I had sent you a reply on Friday but maybe I left this page before I sent it.

That's fine, not a problem.

Thank you for understanding :)

mmm...not sure. As I was doing that exercise there was a thought "who is looking for alex, who is asking all the questions, who is noticing that alex is not found"
It happens quite often - there is a pause and a question - who is doing/thinking/talking? there isn't any answer.

Could it be that looking,asking questions and the noticing alex is not found is just happening? What is not just happening?

It’s important to question who is the thinker or doer as these are two ideas that seem to keep the illusion in place.

First let’s look at the ‘doer’ :)
Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’. So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then: Look on your right. Then look on your left. Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is). When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is). And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing? What did the 'chooser' choose?
Did a 'self' choose something? If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Great questions, Tanya. :)
it's just like there is nothing, just being, just perfect as it is, nothing can be added or taken away. seems it can last for ever and nothing more is needed. and then there is thinking happens, and I appears, thoughts appear about work, relationships etc. and I'm back into the I story. Self appears when thoughts appear.

Beautiful! All is well and perfect as it is. It is only thought that overlays a story about what is not being good enough or wanting more. Putting seeming conditions on what is. What came to mind when reading this is a quote by Sailor Bob Adamson ‘What is wrong with right now if there is no thinking about it?’Not that there is a thinker thinking ;)

Let’s have a look at thinking/thought :) Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears.

Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?

In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

I feel as "the self" most of the time but sometimes there is just being. I'm not sure how it develops in me.
Experientially I can only see it relates to thoughts and feelings. I watch this happens first thing in the morning when I wake up. It happens instantly and it stays here all day until fall asleep at night.

Is “the self” who you really are? Does it define you?
What is it that feels as “the self”?
What is “the self”? And where do you look to find it?
What is a story made up of?

Have given you plenty to look at today. Just reply on here if you need more time to LOOK :)


Much love,
Tanya

[765badgeR]

Hi Tanya! :)

Could it be that looking,asking questions and the noticing alex is not found is just happening? What is not just happening?

Yes, exactly -everything is just happening, including asking questions, looking and noticing or not noticing.
....noticing of the futility of life is also just happening.

It’s important to question who is the thinker or doer as these are two ideas that seem to keep the illusion in place.

yes, I agree with that.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

No, i can't see what is there, i can't choose to see another view. i've no influence over it.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing? What did the 'chooser' choose?
Did a 'self' choose something? If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

No, i can't turn off the seeing and there is no "chooser"/self that chooses anything.

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

There is only awareness and "the I" is unable to choose what it is aware of! there isn't any choice!

I'll need more time to answer the other questions. :)
Many thanks :)
Alex

[tanyawilliams86]

Hi Alex!

Yes, exactly -everything is just happening, including asking questions, looking and noticing or not noticing.
....noticing of the futility of life is also just happening.

When you say ‘futility of life’ what do you mean by that? I just want to check emotionally/mentally you are ok :)
What are meaning and purpose exactly?
Can meaning and purpose be experienced or is meaning and purpose added after the fact?
Is meaning and purpose just a concept?

When we stop giving everything meaning, then peace of mind can happen. It is the constant meaning making that keeps us glued to an identity of some description. For example: This sensation means this about me.
This thought means this about me.
My body means this about me.
Them doing that means this about me, and it means this about them to me.
Look at all the meaning making – the me making - you do throughout your day, and you will soon see how you continually give yourself and life all your own meaning, which in turn keeps you tethered to the idea of personal doership, and personal doership is steeped in suffering.

No, i can't turn off the seeing and there is no "chooser"/self that chooses anything.

You seem pretty clear about this now. Would you like to explore it further?

I'll need more time to answer the other questions. :)

No worries :) take as much time as you need.

Much love,
Tanya

[765badgeR]

Hi Tanya!

When you say ‘futility of life’ what do you mean by that? I just want to check emotionally/mentally you are ok :)
What are meaning and purpose exactly?
Can meaning and purpose be experienced or is meaning and purpose added after the fact?
Is meaning and purpose just a concept?

Sorry, i meant to say that the reality is not what it seems. There isn't any meaning or purpose.
It's just an interpretation of the mind, a concept that keeps an individual going. There isn't any meaning in anything.
yes, i'm absolutely fine emotionally and mentally. thanks :)

When we stop giving everything meaning, then peace of mind can happen. It is the constant meaning making that keeps us glued to an identity of some description. For example: This sensation means this about me.
This thought means this about me.
My body means this about me.
Them doing that means this about me, and it means this about them to me.
Look at all the meaning making – the me making - you do throughout your day, and you will soon see how you continually give yourself and life all your own meaning, which in turn keeps you tethered to the idea of personal doership, and personal doership is steeped in suffering.

True, i agree with what you're saying.
there isn't any suffering in here.
i'm doing this investigation because i can't stop searching.

No, i can't turn off the seeing and there is no "chooser"/self that chooses anything.
You seem pretty clear about this now. Would you like to explore it further?

yes, this is clear. thanks

Back to your previous reply-

What came to mind when reading this is a quote by Sailor Bob Adamson ‘What is wrong with right now if there is no thinking about it?’Not that there is a thinker thinking ;)

True, that's great!

Let’s have a look at thinking/thought :) Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears.

no, that's impossible, hahaha!

Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?

yes, i only know thoughts as they arise . i can't predict which one will be the next.

In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

nobody in control of thinking, the same for choices or impulses - they just happen.
they just come and go.

Is “the self” who you really are? Does it define you?
What is it that feels as “the self”?
What is “the self”? And where do you look to find it?
What is a story made up of?

I've done the exercise to look for "the self" again and i couldn't find it. The self like an onion or a cabbage with lots of peels or layers. It seems that "the self" doesn't define who i am but there is no answer to that. i don't know who i am.
"the self" is a story, that made up of thoughts and memories and the body. but i can't find the self in the body. and the thought are not me. why does it feel as if I am the self then?

That's the first time i am talking to someone about it.
so many thanks
Alex :)