Who wants to walk me through the process?

[Damon Kamda]

I am a know it all and an arrogant stubborn old goat. I am willing to give that up if you are willing to continue working with me so.

Awesome. Yeah, give it up, it'll be helpful ;-)

I am willing to trust your instinct on this and continue to work with you.

Good.

Knowing the logic behind non-duality and being able to talk my way out of pretty much anything you can throw at me is an obvious pitfall.

Yes it is. Moreover, "knowing the logic behing non-duality" isn't going to get you anywhere. Make this experiential, not intellectual.

If I think I have got something and I think it is boring / not enlightening, perhaps you have a point.

What's next?

Thanks

My pleasure, Mark.

What's next?

Well... take that logical understanding and see if it is actually true, in real life.

And perhaps take your time to read back a couple of posts in this thread. There's some unanswered things there.
I'll give you a few hints:

In what sense is this a particular experience, precisely?

Is there something beyond "I Am"?
Let's have a look, shall we?
Look in your own experience. What is "I Am" and what is beyond that?

If it is REALLY TRUE that there has never been a separate you AT ALL.
If it is... then WHAT IS ENLIGHTENMENT???? What is liberation? What is freedom?

And... you promised me to give up being a "know-it-all and stubborn old goat" so before replying, really test this out.

[mark_tywharton]

Well... take that logical understanding and see if it is actually true, in real life.

And perhaps take your time to read back a couple of posts in this thread. There's some unanswered things there.

I decided not to do that because I wanted to take a fresh look at this and not get caught up in my own bullshit.

I printed off Ilona's Start Here page and took a long bath. A very long bath. Three hours.

Then after much contemplation I looked at your hints and I have some specific answers to your questions.

In what sense is this a particular experience, precisely?

I have noticed a whole load of things that I don't do and labeled them no self or recognised that no self must be doing them BUT as there is a part of me that says "I AM NOTICING THESE THINGS THAT POINT TO THERE NOT BEING A ME SO THERE MUST BE NO ME" then there must still be an experiencer? Okay...

Is there something beyond "I Am"?
Let's have a look, shall we?
Look in your own experience. What is "I Am" and what is beyond that?

I started with noticing "I am having a bath" "I am warm" "I am wet" etc
Then I worked on getting to the real "I" sense of it.
Looking at "I" and "I am" on there own.

When I looked at "I" it was still being identified with my body.

So I changed the langauge to IS

Mark IS

I thought about all the other things around me, my town, the route I take to go shopping and decided all these things ARE in REALITY.

Then I looked at RIGHT NOW.

I recognised that while taking a bath, shopping is a concept.

I decided to look to see if Mark was a concept.

By looking in the room for what was real I identified "Mark IS" and "Wall IS" and "Water IS" and then I tried to look to find what ISN'T

I waved my hands in the air and surmised THIS ISN'T and then quickly recognised the mistake.

The space in the room IS the air IS, it all IS.

I could say the wall IS NOT black but in reality the wall is white and in reality there is no ISN'T

So NO SELF is not I AM NOT

If all IS then where am I separate from it?

I create SELF in the realm of NOT as in NOT EVERYTHING ELSE.

So it cannot be true.

All the while, the Christmas song I am writing was "playing" in my mind, melody just humming over and over in my internal dialog. I stopped to recognise there was no me doing it and listened.

Most but not all of the thoughts about I being there or not being there ceased and there was a man taking a bath and there was listening to internal dialog and there was a recognition that each time the language I was ventured it was added onto experience.

And then the smoke alarm went off because the house was full of steam. Someone jumped out of a bath, a voice uttered "FUCK IT" and inner dialog said "I could have done without that happening right then".

If it is REALLY TRUE that there has never been a separate you AT ALL.
If it is... then WHAT IS ENLIGHTENMENT???? What is liberation? What is freedom?

A momentary lapse in reasoning?

Recognition that the self is not a cloud against a blue sky but is the sky itself?

And... you promised me to give up being a "know-it-all and stubborn old goat" so before replying, really test this out.

This topic is constantly running around as a pattern and the pattern for looking is almost certainly is carried out the same way time and time again.

I have no idea if these are the right answers or even close and to what is being experienced right now is FED UP WITH LOOKING and FRUSTRATION.

Kind regards,

Mark

[mark_tywharton]

Recognition that the self is not a cloud against a blue sky but is the sky itself?

That's not clear and needs rewriting.

Recognition that Mark is a blue thing against a blue landscape and cannot be separate from it.

Self would be more like clouds are thoughts and it is not a separate SELF that creates these thoughts but all of the blue thing (sky).

So MARK does not create a thought THIS IS HOT - hot water creates a thought THIS IS HOT and Mark takes ownership of the thought after the fact.

FUCK IT is just a pattern playing out when alarms go off and interrupt baths.

There is no REAL person doing it. It is an afterthought.

[Damon Kamda]

Wow, this thread is getting big!

I have noticed a whole load of things that I don't do

Have you noticed anything, ANYTHING, that you actually do?

and labeled them no self or recognised that no self must be doing them

Please stop doing this. You're still treating this as an intellectual excercise. We're not looking to label thoughts as "no self" or looking for something called "no self" that is behind it all.

I could say the wall IS NOT black but in reality the wall is white and in reality there is no ISN'T

So NO SELF is not I AM NOT

If all IS then where am I separate from it?

I create SELF in the realm of NOT as in NOT EVERYTHING ELSE.

So it cannot be true.

Could you simplify what you're trying to say here, I'm having trouble understanding you. What exactly are you trying to get across here?

So MARK does not create a thought THIS IS HOT - hot water creates a thought THIS IS HOT and Mark takes ownership of the thought after the fact.

What is Mark?
What is ownership?

[mark_tywharton]

Wow, this thread is getting big!

As big as my ego perhaps ;-)

Have you noticed anything, ANYTHING, that you actually do?

Argue with myself

Please stop doing this. You're still treating this as an intellectual excercise. We're not looking to label thoughts as "no self" or looking for something called "no self" that is behind it all.

I am not doing it - it is a habitual pattern of thinking that creates an illusion that there is a me doing it.

I could say the wall IS NOT black but in reality the wall is white and in reality there is no ISN'T

So NO SELF is not I AM NOT

If all IS then where am I separate from it?

I create SELF in the realm of NOT as in NOT EVERYTHING ELSE.

So it cannot be true.

Could you simplify what you're trying to say here, I'm having trouble understanding you. What exactly are you trying to get across here?

The self is the result of saying that I am NOT THIS

I was saying there really are no absolute negatives in life

I can say a white wall is not black but the reality is there is no such thing as not black the wall is just white

So I can say I am not a part of all that is so I must be separate

But reality doesn't bear that out

There is no NOT ALL THAT IS called Mark

There is what is happening and Mark is a part of it

What is Mark?
What is ownership?

Let's go full circle back to Landmark Education's explanation c.1999

It's all empty and meaningless and it's empty and meaningless that it is empty and meaningless

And Self is an invention

I really don't know how else to language it

Here is something you should know about me

I am diagnosed with Aspergers (I mention this earlier in the thread) and the relationship between thought and feeling for a person with autism is very different

Sometimes a thing happens and I react to it with thoughts and I feel something two days later

Sometimes I get a feeling and it takes a long time to come to an intellectual understanding about the feeling

Sometimes thoughts and feelings don't correlate

That is to say they never connect

I can stop loving a person and intellectually write them off only to find I am heartbroken some time after

Sometimes years after an event I will have a recognition of some small but vital part of it that makes it all suddenly make sense

Intellectually I get it

Using intellect to drive this works quite well and in a sense could be considered liberating?

It's ego detachment I suppose

I just haven't clicked yet?

Okay Okay

This hasn't clicked yet such that the tool I can be discarded

I like old hammers

Sometimes they are useful for cracking nuts!

Thanks

Mark

[mark_tywharton]

Have you abandoned me Damon :-(

I am going back through the thread to see what has been missed.

This ownership, this identity- what does it consist of. What is its nature? Focus on that.

Thought, obviously.

In the sentence "you don't think it, IT thinks you", what is meant by "you"? In what ways is the word "you" used?

I am not doing any thinking

Thinking is creating the ME

[Damon Kamda]

Have you abandoned me Damon :-(

No way, mark.
My apologies- I didn't have internet access yesterday.

Argue with myself

Who is arguing with whom? What does this ("arguing with myself") consist of?

I am diagnosed with Aspergers (I mention this earlier in the thread) and the relationship between thought and feeling for a person with autism is very different

Yes, you mentioned this earlier. I'm not quite sure if it influences this, though...

Intellectually I get it

Using intellect to drive this works quite well and in a sense could be considered liberating?

You obviously have a good intellectual understanding of nonduality and the theories behind it. And perhaps there is something liberating about that, yet that is emphatically NOT what this is about. I've called the recognition a visceral one earlier, and even though English is not my first language, I think it accurately describes it. It is a seeing before thought, before experience.

And that seeing is already occuring, right now, it is simply overlooked, overshadowed by thought, which is constantly creating problems, issues.

So the trick here is to let thinking do its thing, don't touch it.
The awakening happens despite the types of thoughts that are occuring. It is not a mental happening, not in the least! So please, please, please STOP LOOKING THERE!!!

It's ego detachment I suppose

That's another idea.
Does the ego even exist? Look at that!

I am not doing any thinking
Thinking is creating the ME

In this simple sentence is EVERYTHING you need to crack this. Everything.
Now, is this really true?

[mark_tywharton]

Who is arguing with whom? What does this ("arguing with myself") consist of?

thoughts in my head about THIS or THAT

I am diagnosed with Aspergers (I mention this earlier in the thread) and the relationship between thought and feeling for a person with autism is very different

Yes, you mentioned this earlier. I'm not quite sure if it influences this, though...

Okay

You obviously have a good intellectual understanding of nonduality and the theories behind it. And perhaps there is something liberating about that, yet that is emphatically NOT what this is about. I've called the recognition a visceral one earlier, and even though English is not my first language, I think it accurately describes it. It is a seeing before thought, before experience.

The dictionary says 'Deep inward feelings, gut reactions'?

So the trick here is to let thinking do its thing, don't touch it.
The awakening happens despite the types of thoughts that are occuring. It is not a mental happening, not in the least! So please, please, please STOP LOOKING THERE!!!

Okay

That's another idea.
Does the ego even exist? Look at that!

No, of course not

I am not doing any thinking
Thinking is creating the ME

In this simple sentence is EVERYTHING you need to crack this. Everything.
Now, is this really true?

Yes, but it is so automatic/habitual/obsessive that it keeps doing it

How does it STOP?

[Damon Kamda]

Yes, but it is so automatic/habitual/obsessive that it keeps doing it

How does it STOP?

It's not about stopping the I-thought from occuring. I'm not even sure if that is even possible, though I suspect that it might be possible to reduce it to a minimum by living a strict monastic life.

It's about clearly seeing it for what it is: a habit- a mental obsession.

thoughts in my head about THIS or THAT

Yes, it's all thought, the entirety of this- the apparent complexity, the seeking, the questions. It is all thought. Not in YOUR head though. There is no you.

The dictionary says 'Deep inward feelings, gut reactions'?

That's not too bad. Yes, most people tend to respond quite strongly to the clear seeing that they never existed. It tends to change the game quite a bit.

How does it STOP?

Are you sure it ever even started?
It's been a dream, Mark.

[mark_tywharton]

It's not about stopping the I-thought from occuring. I'm not even sure if that is even possible, though I suspect that it might be possible to reduce it to a minimum by living a strict monastic life.

It's about clearly seeing it for what it is: a habit- a mental obsession.

Okay, what is the agenda here? I had this before I came in (and don't pick me up on the language). And in a sense just about anything I say to justify my existence is totally meaningless - we are like two artificial intelligence programs speaking with one another here right?

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnzlbyTZsQY

That's not too bad. Yes, most people tend to respond quite strongly to the clear seeing that they never existed. It tends to change the game quite a bit.

Who is chasing liberation here?

What if those expectations are not met here and the memory patterns being played out in consciousness don't give a fuck if they are a person or not?

There is something to get that is already the case right now, right?

Something to feel about all that is?

Something subtle?

The seeing of which permanently negates the notion I

Relegates it to mere concept

Still, it took Buddha six years...

Time for another biscuit!

[Damon Kamda]

Okay, what is the agenda here?

Helping people to see through the illusion of the existence of a separate self. Didn't you read the memo? We've been through this before, Mark, there's no fireworks, nothing special to get here. Just clearly seeing something incredibly obvious, yet easily overlooked, about reality. The simple fact that there is no separate self.

And in a sense just about anything I say to justify my existence is totally meaningless

:-) Now why is that?

Who is chasing liberation here?

:-) Yes, who is chasing liberation?

There is something to get that is already the case right now, right?

Something to feel about all that is?

Something subtle?

The seeing of which permanently negates the notion I

Relegates it to mere concept

Yes.
And the only way to get this, is by honestly looking at what is really going on. Is it true that there is no self?

[mark_tywharton]

Helping people to see through the illusion of the existence of a separate self. Didn't you read the memo? We've been through this before, Mark, there's no fireworks, nothing special to get here. Just clearly seeing something incredibly obvious, yet easily overlooked, about reality. The simple fact that there is no separate self.

Of course I read the memo, I came here by way of Ilona's website and read everything before starting.

I already had the realm of no self from the Landmark Invented Life Seminar.

I just went back through all the sessions on my computer and there really is no difference in what is being said here...

The terminology is slightly different but it is ultimately the same outcome. The Landmark Education conversation is probably more useful than the liberation conversation.

Who is chasing liberation here?

:-) Yes, who is chasing liberation?

What I mean is and what I want to suggest to you is that YOU are chasing a story about liberating another and having me get something that was clearly already gotten.

What exactly do you think should happen here? There is nothing for me to get here, there never was. The game was dressed up a little differently but all we are ever going to have is this programming reacting to that programming and it could go on forever so I am going to pull the plug out.

Discussing the precise nature of the imaginary "I" isn't serving anyone else who is trying to get this.

I think we should close this thread now.

Thanks for your time Damon.

Good luck.

[Damon Kamda]

I already had the realm of no self from the Landmark Invented Life Seminar.

You already have the realm of no self? What does that mean? Is it a special kind of knowledge or experience you can add to your repertoire?

Yes, you've repeatedly demonstrated to have a good intellectual grasp of the theory, yet you said on a number of occasions that you're primary reaction to it was "So what?" and that you failed to see how seeing through the illusion of separation could be considered to be liberating.

The Landmark Education conversation is probably more useful than the liberation conversation.

Useful in what sense?

What I mean is and what I want to suggest to you is that YOU are chasing a story about liberating another and having me get something that was clearly already gotten.

There is NO ONE to be liberated, Mark, let alone SOMEONE to liberate ANOTHER. How would that work?
All I've been doing, from the beginning, is trying to focus your attention on ONE THING, and one thing alone, which has proven quite difficult, to put it mildly.

Discussing the precise nature of the imaginary "I" isn't serving anyone else who is trying to get this.

Then lay it out for those people, clearly and intelligbly: what does it mean "to get this"?

I think we should close this thread now.

Thanks for your time Damon.

You're welcome.

The door is always open.

Take care!

[mark_tywharton]

Wow...

Sorry I gave you such a hard time ;-)

And thanks

[Damon Kamda]

Wow...

Sorry I gave you such a hard time ;-)

And thanks

Breathtaking, isn't it?

And... you gave yourself a hard time, Mark ;-)

It's been a pleasure.