Innermost

[gracie]

Hi again Vivian,

do you know that there is a seer and not just seeing / noticing happening? Not as a noun, as an entity, but as a verb, as a happening?

That is interesting! I don’t know at all if there is a seer as an entity. I assume that because something IS happening and it is seen. Beyond that there seems to be some kind of awareness watching the the seer see. Back to that!

Ok,things are happening and that’s it? My ego/persona is attached and weaves stories, projections and out of this comes the “happenings” the construct (me) lives in and through. These are my creations, my fault, so to speak. Without this belief there is freedom.
They,the creations,actually have nothing to do with a me Or is this me one and the same as the creations? The whole thing is made up?

.

Detach from? Who would detach form those thoughts?
Is there someone outside of thoughts being affected by thoughts?

And will of what?

Is there such thing as will or free will?
Or these are just more unquestioned assumptions?

A thought can not detach from itself but some thing, an illusion?, is affected by the unsubstantiated thoughts claims.
A change of perspective changes the happenings that are being noticed. That puts so much responsibility on the sighing clinging “me” .And what of that law of spiritual attraction. That is a real problem here, a trap. If you think and feel a certain way you control your universe. That is absurd! But there seems to be some evidence .

After looking I don’t see a free will. That one is easy to see that if you look carefully things just happen. Thought says you choose but you don’t. I feel confident I. This but the above writings do not indicate that.
It does follow though if there is no free will than illusion is run by the thought factory.

So there is a me (outside of thoughts) that thoughts are talking TO?

No I don’t see a me that thoughts are talking to. They talk to themselves and agree on all sorts of things including that there is a me.

Thoughts are more interesting for WHO?
Who is it that get bored?

Aren’t these just more thoughts taken for granted, mistook for an entity, for a me?

Thoughts are more interesting to themselves. They get bored.
I can see this but I have yet to come to an understanding, knowing of what is there besides these illusions!
I know , over and over it must be seen . It feels like there is a wall that has a key to transparency as I walk in circles .

Thank you Vivian :)

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

Ok,things are happening and that’s it? My ego/persona is attached and weaves stories, projections and out of this comes the “happenings” the construct (me) lives in and through. These are my creations, my fault, so to speak. Without this belief there is freedom.
They,the creations,actually have nothing to do with a me Or is this me one and the same as the creations? The whole thing is made up?

Good question, look for yourself :) what do you find?

A thought can not detach from itself but some thing, an illusion?, is affected by the unsubstantiated thoughts claims.

Is there really something affected by thoughts, or that is just another line in the story? Another thought taken for granted?

That puts so much responsibility on the sighing clinging “me” .And what of that law of spiritual attraction. That is a real problem here, a trap. If you think and feel a certain way you control your universe. That is absurd! But there seems to be some evidence .

Evidence? The whole law of attraction is nothing else but a big belief in a separate self who has control over thoughts.

But do you have control over thoughts?
How do you control thoughts?

Can you stop thinking for 5 minutes?

Can you chose your next thought in advance before it appears?

Can you chose not to have negative thoughts at all?

No I don’t see a me that thoughts are talking to. They talk to themselves and agree on all sorts of things including that there is a me.

You are talking as if thoughts were alive, aware entities, who can talk to themselves and agree on things. But is this really a case?

What can a thought do?
Is a thought aware?

Is a thought know, actually know, or aware of what it’s talking about?

I know , over and over it must be seen . It feels like there is a wall that has a key to transparency as I walk in circles .

It’s all about perspectives. From which point of view you are looking at thoughts. If attention is fully zoomed in to the content of thoughts, being blind that it’s just a thought…. Or attention is on the awareness of the presence of thoughts, seeing the whole picture, seeing that this is just a thought and not actual reality. It’s not something that is happening here now. Just a fiction, a mental fabrication.

So what needs to be seen is the difference between reality (actuality, experience) and fiction (which is always mental).
So just notice the difference between what is actual here-now, and what is just mental.

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian!

This reply has taken so long. I have to unwind myself from the stories before enough clarity happens to answer.I remember you asked to to write every few days but. I don’t see that possible right now.

Ok,things are happening and that’s it? My ego/persona is attached and weaves stories, projections and out of this comes the “happenings” the construct (me) lives in and through. These are my creations, my fault, so to speak. Without this belief there is freedom.
They,the creations,actually have nothing to do with a me Or is this me one and the same as the creations? The whole thing is made up?
Good question, look for yourself :) what do you find?

I found that it is all made up and the me and the creations are one and the same. The identification with them is intense. There is something dnaish about it. Something primal. But looking at it from a larger point of view it becomes less and less important.

Is there really something affected by thoughts, or that is just another line in the story? Another thought taken for granted?

It’s another story. It’s all akin to each other. The thing that is affected by these thoughts is also a thought.

But do you have control over thoughts?
How do you control thoughts?

Can you stop thinking for 5 minutes?

Can you chose your next thought in advance before it appears?

Can you chose not to have negative thoughts at all?

Very little control over the thoughts. The only way I was able to have what appears to be was to think before hand. In other words, I know I want to think a thought, like the color blue. So the thought I think or see is blue. It was possible. I tried it several times
For the rest. No possibility for stopping thinking for 5 minutes .

Yes I can choose but only simply.
No I can not possibly choose not to have negative thoughts. But apparently if vigilant and emotionally strong I can choose to ignore them only one at a time.

You are talking as if thoughts were alive, aware entities, who can talk to themselves and agree on things. But is this really a case?

What can a thought do?
Is a thought aware?

Is a thought know, actually know, or aware of what it’s talking about?

No, thoughts are not alive. What I thought of Thai is not true.Actually I don’t know what a thought is. I know perhaps what it isn’t. With all of this they still hold me hostage.

The thought can do all sorts of things if you let it. You can do all sorts of things even if you don’t let it. It seems to be the background behind decisions and it’s a convincing background.it seems to be part of being human. No, thoughts are not alive. There is a part of me that is alive. But I am not the thoughts.

No, a thought does not know. It is not aware. It is a function like a heartbeat.
I can see I’m still pretty identified with a “me” existing side by side of thoughts.

I am discouraged Vivian.
Thank you

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

This reply has taken so long. I have to unwind myself from the stories before enough clarity happens to answer.I remember you asked to to write every few days but. I don’t see that possible right now.

Then this is how it is. No problem. Just look as often as possible.

Very little control over the thoughts. The only way I was able to have what appears to be was to think before hand. In other words, I know I want to think a thought, like the color blue. So the thought I think or see is blue. It was possible. I tried it several times

And what about the first thought “I am going to think about blue” – have you thought that? Or that just arose on its own? And you can know that thought when it’s ALREADY present?

I know perhaps what it isn’t. With all of this they still hold me hostage.

What is this I that thoughts hold as a hostage?
Where is the hostage-I?

The identification with them is intense

What is it that identifies with thoughts?

I can see I’m still pretty identified with a “me” existing side by side of thoughts.

What is this I that is identified with the me?
Where is the one that identifies?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian,


A

nd what about the first thought “I am going to think about blue” – have you thought that? Or that just arose on its own? And you can know that thought when it’s ALREADY present?

Yes, it did arise on its own. Out of the blue shall I say.:) it’s funny when asked and looked it’s like adjusting an eye glass. A slight move and a whole new perspective appears.
I don’t know what you mean by the second statement. Know. ? Know what already?

What is this I that thoughts hold as a hostage?
Where is the hostage-I?

The I is a thought that thinks it’s being held hostage.it believes it’s real . Why does it believe this? Even as It can be seen through.
Is it a habit or some ancient thing that has some purpose that we can not know. ?

What is this I that is identified with the me?
Where is the one that identifies?

What is it that identifies with thoughts

?
That is a good question.if there is no I then identification is an illusion. It’s a meaningless word. I dentity
Looks like we are all walking around in a daze of complicated human beingness. The beautiful stories, the ugly ones, and the scary .none of it is real? What is the point Vivian? To get away from that insanity?
I may have learned to love/hate that prison and now that I know I’m not sure where to go.
To the present moment where you just have to trust the only thing you’ve got. Seeing, hearing and the rest, including thought?
Is this the light side of humanbeingness?



I and me are the same. They are both stuck .it’s funny really. The two of them there glued together spinning away . Why are they there?

Grace

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

I don’t know what you mean by the second statement. Know. ? Know what already?

Do you know what is going to be your next thought BEFORE it’s present?
Or you know your next thought when it’s already present?

That is a good question.if there is no I then identification is an illusion. It’s a meaningless word.

Dear Grace it’s not enough to say IF there is no I then…. Since that’s just an intellectual thing... not an actual seeing.

I may have learned to love/hate that prison and now that I know I’m not sure where to go.

What managed to learned that?
What is it that wants to go somewhere?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi,

Do you know what is going to be your next thought BEFORE it’s present?
Or you know your next thought when it’s already present

?

No you can not know anything before it is present.
The second question seems rhetorical. No you can not know your next thought when it is present.

Dear Grace it’s not enough to say IF there is no I then…. Since that’s just an intellectual thing... not an actual seeing.

You are right. I am trying to see this through intellect, which I do. I understand seeing but not able to see! I’m caught in the middle!

What managed to learned that?
What is it that wants to go somewhere?

Here I am confused. What is it that learns? Where do these ideas come from?
The aberration of “l”? It’s all made up. Nowhere to go.
Thank you Vivian!

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

Here I am confused. What is it that learns? Where do these ideas come from?
The aberration of “l”? It’s all made up. Nowhere to go.

Do you really SEE that the I as just made up, or is this just an intellectual understanding?

It’s very important that you actually see this and not just get it intellectually.

Please tell me from you own experience what is the difference between understanding it and actually seeing it?

Vivien