Innermost

[Vivien]

No problem. But make sure that you don't think about the answers, but you actually look at your experience directly, not by through a mental interpretation.

[gracie]

Hi Vivian,
Thank you for the clear questions.

I can see that experience is definitely different than thought about the experience.

It seems like thought ,at times was a way to escape experience. For example, if the body and emotions held in that body don’t feel well then thought becomes a powerful and appealing direction away from direct experience. So “not feeling well”. Is a thought .

Doesn’t matter what the description is about, doesn’t matter how detailed it is, those definitions are NOT intrinsic to the experience, are they?

No they are not .

Can the thought based definition, can the labels ever be able to describe the fullness and the richness of the direct raw experience?

No. Thought floats on the experience. It is airy. And experience is yet to be discovered by me. I can experience all the sensations but they keep morphing into thought. Obviously this takes dedication and practice.

I have a question now. How can it be if there is no me? No me to experience these things. What then is this experience? I understand intellectually but there is no I to be found .But I have yet to experience that thought of no I.
Is no I am an experience? I would say obviously not that’s another thought right?

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

It seems like thought ,at times was a way to escape experience. For example, if the body and emotions held in that body don’t feel well then thought becomes a powerful and appealing direction away from direct experience. So “not feeling well”. Is a thought .

Yes, nice observation.

I have a question now. How can it be if there is no me? No me to experience these things. What then is this experience? I understand intellectually but there is no I to be found .But I have yet to experience that thought of no I.

Experiencing thought of no I? Is that possible?
Direct experience of no self – how could that be experience of something that isn’t there? Look around in your room… and tell me the experience of NO unicorn in the room. What kind of experience is that?

There has never been one…so how can an absence of a ‘no self’ be experienced?

What is offered is the cessation of the belief of an existing finite separate self. That sense of ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it - body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them you take yourself to be what you are not. So what changes is your perception of what that sense of “I am” is.

Is no I am an experience? I would say obviously not that’s another thought right?

Just notice how much you hold onto the idea that there must be an experiencer, instead of questioning this base assumption. How could a non-existing thing experience? Can the non-unicorn in the room with you experience?

It’s not about having an experience of no-self, or no-uncirorn. It’s about seeing that there is NO experience of a self, or a unicorn. Do you see the difference?

Note: you left out several questions from my previous post, please make sure that you reply to each question. Every question is a pointer for you.

Vivien

[gracie]

Vivian,
So many things have been happening in my life right now that I have been remiss in responding!

The questions require repeated contemplation .

I can see that actual experience is quite different than thinking about it .they are both there and while happening for me,playing ping pong.

How could a non-existing thing experience? Can the non-unicorn in the room with you experience?

It’s not about having an experience of no-self, or no-uncirorn. It’s about seeing that there is NO experience of a self, or a unicorn. Do you see the difference?

This question is most difficult for me. Yes, indeed I have seen after repeatedly trying to find what I thought to be me.
What it looks like is something built on a foundation of thoughts and beliefs stemming from them. I don’t see thoughts as a person.
The frustrating thing is that even with seeing this I still believe in this phantom self.!

What are the labels? What are the thoughts ABOUT it?

And what is there on the experience’s ‘side’? What is there, what is happening independently of those labels/thoughts?

As a next step, can you notice that the direct experience of breathing, and thoughts ABOUT it appear simultaneously, side-by-side, operating / happening on their own, independently of each other?

Just notice, the rich array of experience appears independently of its thought based description, just as the description doesn’t interfere with the experience itself.

Notice that the experience of breathing doesn’t come with a tag or a label attached to it ‘breath’, right?

Right.
The labels about breathing are ,it is too shallow, it’s too fast, it is soft,it is amazing. What is there on the experience side ?
Sound, movement of in and tightness then after awhile very slow peace.



Yes I see that experience and thought exist side by side. They are separate.
I think I’m having trouble putting these two things together. No self and experience and thought.they seem entirely different subjects.

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

The frustrating thing is that even with seeing this I still believe in this phantom self.!

Look at this ‘phantom self’ in your daily life.

How does this ‘phantom self’ show up in moment-to-moment living?

How does it look like?
How big it is?
Where is its physical location?

When it shows up, how do you know that it’s the phantom self and not something else?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hello again Vivian,

How does this ‘phantom self’ show up in moment-to-moment living?

How does it look like?
How big it is?
Where is its physical location?

When it shows up, how do you know that it’s the phantom self and not something else?

The phantom shows up as a character in a story. It shows up as reactionary. It does what it has to for protection of *me*
Here’s where I get confused about this. Perhaps the phantom self and the me are one in the same. Both illusions but somehow necessary to survive?

It doesn’t really look like anything resembling physical ness.
It’s sensed and has feelings attached to it .

It is big. It takes all the space although not physical in and of itself.. In fact it can make the surrounding physical world disappear unless it is using it for some reason. .

It’s physical location seems to be in my head. Behind my eyes. I allow it to tell me what to do,and think . That’s pretty powerful!

The reason I know it is a phantom and not something else .
It always shows up as a story .it constantly changes although the story repeats.
When a new storyline comes it serves the same reactionary function.

Thank you Vivian for the great questions.

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

Thank you Vivian for the great questions.

You're welcome :)

Perhaps the phantom self and the me are one in the same.

Why would they different? What you call phantom self = me = Gracie

Both illusions but somehow necessary to survive?

No, the illusion of a psychological self is not necessary to survive. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be possible to wake up from this illusion.

It’s physical location seems to be in my head. Behind my eyes. I allow it to tell me what to do,and think . That’s pretty powerful!

This is the important part. It doesn’t matter if it’s called as I, me, Gracie or phantom self. It’s the same stuff. The same mind-made fabrication of an entity that does, thinks, feels, decides.

It always shows up as a story .it constantly changes although the story repeats.

Yes, it shows up as a story, exactly.

And what is that story? What is that story made of?

Is there anything else to that story than a string of thoughts? One thought at a time?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian.

would they different? What you call phantom self = me = Gracie

I guess they are not different. They have different flavors but are all taking part in the same story. The different flavors are convincing in that the very diversity throws me off .

No, the illusion of a psychological self is not necessary to survive. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be possible to wake up from this illusion.

I don’t see this. The self illusion or not has to survive somehow. It is built into the brain.which I realize is yet another thought.
What IS necessary to survive then? Or is survive yet another story. I don’t think so. And if so what is there beyond the thought that there is a survival?

And what is that story? What is that story made of?

The story is made of thoughts and feelings usually stemmed in the past and catapulted into the future.it is seamless and proves itself by thoughts agreeing with each other.yikes! The story is relentlessly marches on for me even though I see it.

Is there anything else to that story than a string of thoughts? One thought at a time?

There are feelings accompanying the thoughts or perhaps instigated by them.

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

I guess they are not different. They have different flavors but are all taking part in the same story. The different flavors are convincing in that the very diversity throws me off .

Please don’t guess. Whenever you want to use words like "maybe", or "I suppose", "I think", “I guess” ..... stop yourself, here the thinking ABOUT starts and the looking stops. Breathe in, look again.
This looking takes a bit of practice until it gets fluent.

So look again:
Why would they different? What you call phantom self = me = Gracie

What IS necessary to survive then? Or is survive yet another story. I don’t think so. And if so what is there beyond the thought that there is a survival?

The survival of the body has nothing to do with the belief in a self. The survival of the body is genetically coded, so that cannot be lost.

But I rather not answer further, since I don’t want you to fall into an intellectual speculation and belief about things. With thinking you cannot think yourself out of the thing that creates the illusion in the first place: thoughts :)

The story is made of thoughts and feelings usually stemmed in the past and catapulted into the future.it is seamless and proves itself by thoughts agreeing with each other.yikes! The story is relentlessly marches on for me even though I see it.

Spend a whole day noticing thoughts. Be vigilant to catch any moment in your waking state when the story, the mental movie is on.

Notice, how much time do you spend watching a mentally fabricated movie about the past?

How much about an imagined future?

How much about some other place than here now?

How often you are focusing on thoughts that are not about what is here-now and this very moment?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian
Here is what I am finding.

Notice, how much time do you spend watching a mentally fabricated movie about the past?

How much about an imagined future?

I spent most of the time in the movie of future and past. The times I was not doing that were when I reminded myself to check where the thoughts were at and also when relating to another person. That seemed to be more that The present moment was available although I’m not sure I was aware.
Confused ? Yes.

How much about some other place than here now?

Yes! Always when not here/now there is another place .100 Percent of the time!

How often you are focusing on thoughts that are not about what is here-now and this very moment?

Often. Several times a day I remember about looking at where my thoughts are. But when I’m not remembering that, the thoughts are always about the past or the future weaving webs of stories.It’s really amazing how not present I am. The stories seem to have a more interesting draw to me than the present moment .they feel urgent and suggest that if I don’t attend to their call that things will fall through the cracks making for a background anxiety. I think I am trapped by their drama. I can see the ridiculousness of that yet on it goes.
Thank you Vivian!

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,
You did a nice observation. Just keep noticing thoughts. This is very important. It's all about thoughts. The whole illusion is created by thoughts.

Often. Several times a day I remember about looking at where my thoughts are. But when I’m not remembering that, the thoughts are always about the past or the future weaving webs of stories.It’s really amazing how not present I am. The stories seem to have a more interesting draw to me than the present moment .they feel urgent and suggest that if I don’t attend to their call that things will fall through the cracks making for a background anxiety. I think I am trapped by their drama. I can see the ridiculousness of that yet on it goes.

So what is it that is watching this movie?
What or who is it that is affected by the mental stuff?
Who/what is that is trapped by the drama in the story?

Look very carefully. Where is this I that all of these SEEMINGLY happening TO?

Do you find this I outside of the movie/story?
Or being trapped is just another line in the story?

Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian,

what is it that is watching this movie?
What or who is it that is affected by the mental stuff?

Consciousness is watching the movie.
Or a protector in the form of thought. Thought seems to have many roles,therefore it can be deceiving.
I am not clear on this.
What is affected by this metal stuff is the body, tension or not.heartrate, breathing and those kind of things Also thoughts generate more thoughts. So thought itself is affected or the dynamic of thought is affected. Thought forms agreement with itself(more thoughts) and makes opinions and judgments which affect experience or the lack of it due to thought.

Who/what is that is trapped by the drama in the story?

I can see it’s not a who... even though seemingly I still believe there is one.
Thoughts are trapped. Or the dynamic of the chemical reactions In the brain giving rise to thought. The chemicals form ruts or patterns and become trapped. . But what is a thought anyway? Isn’t it part of experience? Like seeing, hearing and taste? How can experience be trapped?

Look very carefully. Where is this I that all of these SEEMINGLY happening TO?

I can not find a definitive I, but there is something attached that seems like it is being affected. I can understand this is just another thought . I need to practice watching this dynamic, it runs so deep. The I is everywhere and In everything. It permeates.
I look forward to your response!
Gracie

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

Consciousness is watching the movie.

Do you actually see a consciousness watching the movie? Or is it rather an intellectual speculation?

Or a protector in the form of thought.

A thought is watching a movie? Is that possible?

Is a thought aware?
Can a thought be aware of a movie?
Is a thought an aware entity being able to notice and watch things?

Or thoughts just babbling about all sorts of stuff, presenting ideas, without having consciousness on their own?

Thoughts are trapped. Or the dynamic of the chemical reactions In the brain giving rise to thought. The chemicals form ruts or patterns and become trapped. .

Isn’t this coming from thinking?
Another speculation?

You have to shift your focus from thoughts to experience.
You will never be able to think yourself out of this.
The solution comes with what you do with your attention.
If you focus on the story-land, the mental realm, or you if you shift your focus to the here-and-now experience.

It’s about a shift in focus FROM thought narration TO experience.
That’s all.

Imagine that you are in a noisy café with someone having a conversation. There is the mixture of sounds, loud music, the sound of a coffee machine, other people are talking, children laughing and screaming. Yet, you can shift your focus on the person you are talking with, and have a lovely conversation. Her voice is in the foreground, and all the rest in the background.

This is the same with looking at experience. You just shift your focus from thoughts to experience, but thoughts don’t have to stop for that, just as the music doesn’t have to stop to be able have a conversation with your friend.


Vivien

[gracie]

Hi Vivian,

It took me awhile to unwrap my self .

Is a thought aware?
Can a thought be aware of a movie?
Is a thought an aware entity being able to notice and watch things?

No, a thought is not aware. It thinks it is by saying so but it’s not.
A thought is not able to notice things or watch. It has opinion about what is seen. But I wonder who /what is this seer?

Thoughts are trapped. Or the dynamic of the chemical reactions In the brain giving rise to thought. The chemicals form ruts or patterns and become trapped. .
Isn’t this coming from thinking?
Another speculation?

Yes it is a speculation. They do babble on and on. And on..

I like your analogy with the talking to the friend. All these thoughts and everything else happening but I don’t have to pay attention to it.
There are somethings that are so heavily charged that are impossible to detach from though. It is a matter of will? Emotions are tangled with opinion and judgment with a strong dose of victim hood added in. It’s an avalanche and must be mitigated at all cost. I know these are only thoughts!
Is it thoughts or something else telling me to meditate much more.

Sometimes I look at it like I am a screen and everything happening is arising on this screen. It arises , it disappears .

It constantly changes but the screen remains exactly the same and in meditation things can become very quiet and still. It is there that it is easy to focus on the direct experiences.
What I think you are saying is practice practice moving my attention from beliefs aka thoughts to what is actually happening.
My problem is that the thoughts “seem” more interesting than what is going on.I am finding it difficult to stay focused without getting bored .
I look forward to your response on that one!
Gracie

[Vivien]

Hi Gracie,

A thought is not able to notice things or watch. It has opinion about what is seen. But I wonder who /what is this seer?

How do you know that there is a seer and not just seeing / noticing happening? Not as a noun, as an entity, but as a verb, as a happening?

There are somethings that are so heavily charged that are impossible to detach from though. It is a matter of will?

Detach from? Who would detach form those thoughts?
Is there someone outside of thoughts being affected by thoughts?

And will of what?
Is there such thing as will or free will?
Or these are just more unquestioned assumptions?

Is it thoughts or something else telling me to meditate much more.

So there is a me (outside of thoughts) that thoughts are talking TO?

My problem is that the thoughts “seem” more interesting than what is going on.I am finding it difficult to stay focused without getting bored .

Thoughts are more interesting for WHO?
Who is it that get bored?

Aren’t these just more thoughts taken for granted, mistook for an entity, for a me?

Vivien