Looking for Guidance

[LosingIt]

Do "you" have control over anything at all? If so, please can you give an example of something "you" control?

This is the question that I'm contemplating the most. I think a lot about whether or not I control my thoughts. And I know I don't. And from that I ask myself what I do control. Do I control my heartbeat, the growth of my hair, my breath while I'm sleeping? Did I choose my parents, or the place I was born,or the first language I was taught? Do I know what will happen 2 years from now? 2 minutes from now? Can I control what will happen 5 seconds from now? Do I know what I will be thinking 10 seconds from now? Can I control the words that come out of my mouth when in conversation? And the answer to all is "no".

Part of me thinks I can control the movement of my body. I could choose to turn my hand over (like in your previous prescribed exercise). But why did I "choose" to turn my hand over, and not to wiggle my toes? Where did the thought to "choose to turn over my hand" come from?" When I go for a walk, am I "choosing" how my feet step? Am I choosing the length of each step, and the firmness of how each foot hits the ground?

I will contemplate this more tomorrow.

[LosingIt]

I took a ride with a friend today and they drove. While we were on the road, I thought about how I couldn't control how my friend drove, whether they turned left or right, or used a turn signal, and I couldn't control what the people in the other cars were doing, whether they drove properly, or sped, or used their turn signals or not, or whether they crashed into us (fortunately they didn't). Letting my friend drive was actually quite liberating, I was giving up any semblance of control as to where we were going, and how quickly or safely we arrived. And I kept thinking about how nothing that was going on on the highway was under my control, and the weather and the clouds above did their thing, without my intervention or direction. And everything in my awareness just did it's thing without any degree of control from me.

Later today I listened to some of Richard Lang's "Headless Way" exercises (and I did them). They are similar to the exercises that you and other guides on Liberation Unleashed provide the seekers here. I feel like I'm starting to separate my true self (my awareness) from Paul, and see Paul as another object in the field of awareness.

I read something awhile ago, and I don't recall where, but it was a group of phrases that said things along the lines of:
"The awareness of fear is not fearful"
"The awareness of happiness is not happy"
etc, etc.
And it's really stuck with me.

And Paul is just another ephemeral object in awareness. And the various qualities that I attribute to "Paul" are just objects in awareness. There is no Paul to attach qualities to.

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

This sounds great...

I feel like I'm starting to separate my true self (my awareness) from Paul, and see Paul as another object in the field of awareness.

I read something awhile ago, and I don't recall where, but it was a group of phrases that said things along the lines of:
"The awareness of fear is not fearful"
"The awareness of happiness is not happy"
etc, etc.
And it's really stuck with me.

And Paul is just another ephemeral object in awareness. And the various qualities that I attribute to "Paul" are just objects in awareness. There is no Paul to attach qualities to.

So if "Paul" is an ephemeral object in awareness what about the sense of "me-ness" or "I-ness? Does that still persist? If so, is that a set of thoughts or is that a felt sense ie physical sensations?

Keep looking, it sounds like things are beginning to open or loosen up? Is that right?

love

X

[LosingIt]

So if "Paul" is an ephemeral object in awareness what about the sense of "me-ness" or "I-ness? Does that still persist? If so, is that a set of thoughts or is that a felt sense ie physical sensations?

During today's meditations, both formal and informal, everytime I searched for who Paul was I saw a thought of "Paul". And when I searched for Paul's body I felt physical sensations, mostly muscle tension, in the field of awareness. There was no "I" that owned them, any "I" that arose was just a thought in the field of awareness. I felt very calm. When I arose from my nightly formal meditation, I did feel like things were happening, and Paul wasn't controlling them. I felt much more aware of each of my senses, like I was doing things for the first time, or noticiing things about routine habits that I hadn't noticed before: the weight of my toothbrush, how the bristles felt as they brushed against "my" teeth, the thickness of the kitchen rug beneath my feet, etc. Is it common or weird to feel like my vision is like a spotlight? Like a conical "V-shape" going out from my eyes, turning when I turn, revealing the environment, everything behind the head is dark...Does that make sense?

Keep looking, it sounds like things are beginning to open or loosen up? Is that right?

I think so... I want to see if I wake up tomorrow and am again identifying with "Paul". Then do another sitting meditation like tonight's, and see what happens.

[LosingIt]

Well, since my meditation of the other night I haven't quite received those same results again. I've had intimations, but after I get up from my meditation I'm pretty much back in my head and identifying with Paul. My mantra has been, for the most part, "that is a thought in awareness," each time I have a thought, or feel muscle tension, or identify with "Paul". Yesterday I sat and meditated twice. I find that I become very calm and experience DE for extended periods, but when I get up, I'm not nearly as deep in DE as I was the other night.

[amrita]

Hi,

so when you say...

Well, since my meditation of the other night I haven't quite received those same results again. I've had intimations, but after I get up from my meditation I'm pretty much back in my head and identifying with Paul. My mantra has been, for the most part, "that is a thought in awareness," each time I have a thought, or feel muscle tension, or identify with "Paul". Yesterday I sat and meditated twice. I find that I become very calm and experience DE for extended periods, but when I get up, I'm not nearly as deep in DE as I was the other night.

who is the "I" that identifies with the story of "Paul"?

Who is the "I" that decides your personal mantra?

When is DE if not now?

amrita

[LosingIt]

who is the "I" that identifies with the story of "Paul"?

I don't know who the I is that identifies with Paul. I suppose this "I" is just another thought in awareness.

Who is the "I" that decides your personal mantra?

The "I" is just a thought in awarness. And the mantra that "I" came up with is just another thought in awareness.

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

Just wanted to check in with you and how are you getting on with this inquiry? I hope its all good for you.

swhen you say...

I don't know who the I is that identifies with Paul. I suppose this "I" is just another thought in awareness.

Is that a thought (about another thought) or is that something you can witness in DE?

amrita

[LosingIt]

Just wanted to check in with you and how are you getting on with this inquiry? I hope its all good for you.

I am having more insights and sometimes in my meditations there is deep DE experience.

Is that a thought (about another thought) or is that something you can witness in DE?

It is just a thought about another thought. It does not exist in DE. But DE is difficult to experience for very long. When it is experienced, it is very peaceful.

[amrita]

Hi,

So when you are in DE you can not find any sign of a self but then you become distracted and caught up in the story of Paul which seems real and believable. Is that a fair summary of where you are with this?

If that is the case what is is exactly that makes the story of Paul so believable and real? And what exactly are you identifying with in that story? your body? your thougthts? your experience? your ability to "choose" or "control" things or events?

in terms of awareness, who or what is it that is aware? does this awareness have a centre?

BW

Amrita

[LosingIt]

So when you are in DE you can not find any sign of a self but then you become distracted and caught up in the story of Paul which seems real and believable. Is that a fair summary of where you are with this?

Yes.

If that is the case what is is exactly that makes the story of Paul so believable and real? And what exactly are you identifying with in that story? your body? your thougthts? your experience? your ability to "choose" or "control" things or events?

A certain seemingly continuity of the story of Paul. I leave a voicemail for a friend, the friend calls me back. I write an email to a friend and descibe my experience, they write me back and confirm my experience, and relay their own experiences. I maintain my preferences for food, friends, recreation. I know these change over time, but it is a slow process, so I don't notice that I'm not the same person I was when I was 5, 15, 25 or 30, and I feel very similar to the person I was yesterday.

And you and the study of nonduality and meditation have taught me that I do not control anything, but I've been programmed all my life by peers and society to believe that I can control certain "choices" I make throughout the day and throughout my life. And it's easy to fall back into thinking "I chose" to eat this, or drink that, or ride my bike today.

in terms of awareness, who or what is it that is aware? does this awareness have a centre?

It's a difficult question. I would say that Awareness itself is aware. I just attach my body and my story to it and claim it's me.

Ultimately, I don't think Awareness has an actual center. But I have a tendency/habit of pretending that it is centered behind my eyes and between my ears.

[amrita]

Hi,

so when you say...

A certain seemingly continuity of the story of Paul.

Is this continuity primarily a set of sensations or a set of thoughts?

and when you say...

I maintain my preferences for food, friends, recreation

did you choose your preferences or are did they simply arise? Do you choose anything at all?

In terms of writing an email did you write it or did it write itself? Did "you" move your fingers to type or did they simply move?

In terms of reading this are "you" reading these words or are the words simply arising in awareness?

[LosingIt]

Is this continuity primarily a set of sensations or a set of thoughts?

It's definitely a set of thoughts. I get what you're saying. In DE there is no continuity of personality.

did you choose your preferences or are did they simply arise? Do you choose anything at all?

I did not choose my preferences. They simply arose. There ultimately is no "me" that chooses things. These preferences are just thoughts. But why do I cling to them? Why do I keep coming back to them? Like a computer program on repeat. Like the proverbial broken record.

In terms of writing an email did you write it or did it write itself? Did "you" move your fingers to type or did they simply move?

I'm laughing as a write this. The email wrote itself and "my" fingers just moved. I don't know what I'm going to write in the email before I sit down to write it. Thoughts arise in awareness, and my fingers move to transmute them into spelled out words.

In terms of reading this are "you" reading these words or are the words simply arising in awareness?

The words are simply arising in awareness. But why do thoughts continually arise about "Paul" and why do these thoughts try to attach themselves to the experience of reading (or thoughts that arise during the experience of looking at words on a page)?

[amrita]

Hi,

In response to your questions abut why thoughts are repetitive or why certain thoughts attach themselves to the narrative of Paul I would say that we are not so focused on why type questions as they often lead us into more intellectualising and speculating and take us away from the here and nowness of direct experience. Saying that however, I would suggest that human beings are deeply habitual creatures in terms of thinking and patterns of behaviour.

When "you" see these words is there a "you" that reads them or are they just simply read/comprehended?

When you type your reply do you choose the words or do the words simply arise?

When you speak to someone are you actually choosing the words or do the words just come?

and when you say

I did not choose my preferences. They simply arose. There ultimately is no "me" that chooses things. These preferences are just thoughts. But why do I cling to them? Why do I keep coming back to them?

Is there a self that "clings" to your views or preferences? What is happening in DE when there is a preference between something you like and something you don't like?

[LosingIt]

When "you" see these words is there a "you" that reads them or are they just simply read/comprehended?

They are simply read/comprehended.

When you type your reply do you choose the words or do the words simply arise?

The words simply arise.

When you speak to someone are you actually choosing the words or do the words just come?

Generally the words just come out. I would say that at times I think of the words before I say them, but the words that I think of before I speak also just arise on their own.

and when you say

"I did not choose my preferences. They simply arose. There ultimately is no "me" that chooses things. These preferences are just thoughts. But why do I cling to them? Why do I keep coming back to them?"

Is there a self that "clings" to your views or preferences? What is happening in DE when there is a preference between something you like and something you don't like?

Preferences fade in DE, for sure (or are nonexistent), BUT, let's say I have a very intense aversion to a specific food (when not in DE). If I put that food in my mouth during DE, would I no longer want to spit it out, would I no longer gag in response to it's flavor? I think my least favorite food would push me out of DE rather quickly.