Undertand but Can't See

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

thank you for your asnwers.
I'm going to forward them and will back to you soon.

The feelings were very intense but I'm still up for this,
I can separate what is real in sensations here & now.
And what is not real like the contents of thoughts.

I'm glad to read this.

Much love
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

we will continue investigating.

Let's see this:

I see a thought which is a reminder of an unreal separate self,

Can a thought be touched?
Can a thought be smelled?
Can a thought be seen?
Can a thought be heard
Can a thought be tasted?


The questions are simple. Investigate them closer, vigilantly and curiously.



Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,
Let's continue this investigation..

Can a thought be touched?

No

Can a thought be smelled?

No

Can a thought be seen?

No

Can a thought be heard

No

Can a thought be tasted?

No


But when Looking more at the thoughts there,
They can be known but not as like the actual experience.
The visual image, auditory sound, etc. So vague and not real.

All the contents of thoughts are imaginations, never in reality.

Investigating with curiosity and looking closer to thoughts;
They can prompt some sensations in the body, if believed as real.

Who is this believer? Where is the "I" that believe thoughts?
Why is a thought existing than just cease to existed?
And where in reality is this thought appearing?

Noticing so many thoughts arising out of nowhere,
But where in the world are they now, cannot sense them.
Sensations are color, sounds, smell, taste, feeling, pressure, etc.

So, I cannot see or hear or smell but the thoughts existed.
The illusion is when the content of a thought believed as real.
Like there are some visuals, sounds, but it's not the real thing!
The visuals, sounds, ect. are just imaginations, not like the actual.

Everyday thoughts just come and go, containing some stories.
Without any thoughts, there's no story, and there's no "me"
But the thoughts cannot be stopped, just appearing.

Whenever "I" aware the illusion of thoughts appearing real,
I can see that there's no self, never real, only in imaginations.

There are never someone, just life live-ing with sensations.
Experiencing from 5 senses and aware-ing there are thoughts.

And there is no thinker, doer, or just witness.. No separate self!

Thanks Luchana!
With love,
Reza

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

I would like to add something from your previous post

I see a thought which is a reminder of an unreal separate self,

And also this :

I can see that there's no self, never real, only in imaginations.

It's not enough if a thought reminds based on a memory of a previous seeing that there is no self.
Relying on a memory, on a thought can only ever believed, and that is not seeing.
It needs to be seen afresh in that moment. Again and again and again. Not just once. Many, many moments.
If it's just a thought based on a memory, then in that moment that is just a belief not a deep experiential recognition.
Can you see this?

Can a thought be touched?
No
Can a thought be smelled?
No
Can a thought be seen?
No
Can a thought be heard
No
Can a thought be tasted?
No

Can this which cannot be seen, touched, smelled, heard, tasted to do anything?
Anything AT ALL?


Please don't go into thinking, don't rely on memory, or a previous experience - rather look at your direct immediate experience and answer this quesion. Look many, many times during the day, dig deep,

The asnwer may seems simple. But don't rush saying "no".
Take your time.


Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,


You asked:

Can you see this?

I see that to look is to go to direct (actual) experience everytime when looking, so not based on memory or contents of thoughts.

But in how to see, to be able to look again and again, the how is a knowledge I got from this forum. Reminder to look afresh for DE.

Your pointers are insights, on how to do the looking, those are thoughts too right? But when looking, I go to the pure sensations.

Can this which cannot be seen, touched, smelled, heard, tasted to do anything?
Anything AT ALL?

When I look at the thoughts appeared, and then giving too much attention to the contents of thoughts (instead of also noticing other immediate experiences from other sensations from the surrounding like sights, sounds, temperatures, etc.) then;

More thoughts are arousing (seems like they're triggered whereas really, a thought can't do anything) and some other physical/body sensations also appearing and labeled by another thought as emotions, plus some thoughts are coming as stories..


Like this morning and right now,
So many thoughts and emotions (sensations plus stories) appeared and like touching an open unhealed physiological wounds, it hurts. I don't know if I can continue this process...

Too much suffering in my life these days, problems in the work place and the affair of my wife, I really hope I can eliminate the label of me, mine, and this 'I' because no self, no problems right?

Thanks Luchana,
Regards, Reza.

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

There is a lot of truth in your answer, there are some glimples, so to speak.
There is also a lot of beliefs in how things are, instead of clarity. Let's clear some stuff.
Can you see what is clear and what is just a beliеf?
There is no room for believing in either a self or no-self.
There is no need to believe that there is no Santa, right?
Santa was never here to begin with.

Like this morning and right now,
So many thoughts and emotions (sensations plus stories) appeared and like touching an open unhealed physiological wounds, it hurts. I don't know if I can continue this process...

I understand... It's not pleasant to sit with the pain, but actually it is here already asking for your attention.

Can you look at this suffering and find:
What suffering is made of?
Why is here?
What message does it carry?
What does it want the most?

Let me know how it goes and later we will see how to continue.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

The family is celebrating ied al fitr, moslems holidays.
I need a couple day. But I'm still practicing to look daily.
Hope that's fine with you.

Thank you!
With Love,
Rezza

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

thank you for letting me know
Sure, feel free to write when it's possible for you.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

Let's see...

Can you see what is clear and what is just a beliеf?

Yes, seeing and hearing and other sensations are obvious, a belief is just a thought, a repeated story but still an imagination.

What suffering is made of?

Believing thoughts-stories and touching psychological wounds, emotions appeared as combinations of stories & sensations.

Why is here?

Reinforcing the belief of a self, protecting the "I" - a fragile ego that is just a concept, not a real thing in the reality.

What message does it carry?

To look more. Untangling the sensations and the labeling to break down the illusion of a separation (who's this 'I' that suffers?).

What does it want the most?

To feel more alive, existing out of the void of unfindable "my" self.


I see which thoughts consist of (imaginative) words and pictures, but they're not me, and the noticed sensations also not mine.

The mental image/sound and the sensations felt aren't welded together but another thought like to give connections as of they were impacting each other but seperately they aren't my-self.


And also, looking at the wife and the boss, they are nothing.
The word "wife" and "boss" aren't themselves, the are just words.
Seeing them subjectively with all these memories and thoughts,
But if other people seen them without these memories and also thoughts, they're just sensations; colors and sounds, aromas, etc.

So, there are no other self too not just there is no my-self.
Seeing fresh and ignoring thoughts, there are just sensations.
And the sensations also come and go just like all the thoughts.

Nothing permanent here, everything changes like waves.
Life is experiencing all the sensations without any experiencer.

Back to your first question, finding the obvious that there's no self and expecting no problems, is a belief. Being alive experiencing sensations, perceiving problems, negative and also positive thoughts will always be here, nothing will change after this.

After our inquiries, there's no change in me, alas the life-story of Reza is getting notoriously 'interesting', but there are no shifts whatsoever in perceptions or perspective of a seperate-self.

If I may add something, that is gratitude to you; Luchana
For your kindness and patient in guiding me, so.. Thank you!

With love,
Reza.

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

Yes, seeing and hearing and other sensations are obvious, a belief is just a thought, a repeated story but still an imagination.

What is a belief made of?

Why is here?

Reinforcing the belief of a self, protecting the "I" - a fragile ego that is just a concept, not a real thing in the reality.

In the story the fear, a sensation called fear is protecting someone or something.
But can you look behind this sensation? Behind the fear?
What is there?
Is there something real to be protected?
Does a sensation protect? Can a senstaion do anything?

I see which thoughts consist of (imaginative) words and pictures, but they're not me, and the noticed sensations also not mine.

The mental image/sound and the sensations felt aren't welded together but another thought like to give connections as of they were impacting each other but seperately they aren't my-self.

Lool
What can a thought do?
Does a thought have an extra power?
To make connections?

And also, looking at the wife and the boss, they are nothing.
The word "wife" and "boss" aren't themselves, the are just words.
Seeing them subjectively with all these memories and thoughts,
But if other people seen them without these memories and also thoughts, they're just sensations; colors and sounds, aromas, etc.

So, there are no other self too not just there is no my-self.
Seeing fresh and ignoring thoughts, there are just sensations.
And the sensations also come and go just like all the thoughts.

Nothing permanent here, everything changes like waves.
Life is experiencing all the sensations without any experiencer.

This is a beautiful insight.

Back to your first question, finding the obvious that there's no self and expecting no problems, is a belief. Being alive experiencing sensations, perceiving problems, negative and also positive thoughts will always be here, nothing will change after this.

Nothing is changed yes, but everything feels different.

After our inquiries, there's no change in me, alas the life-story of Reza is getting notoriously 'interesting', but there are no shifts whatsoever in perceptions or perspective of a seperate-self.

The change could be very subtle, but saying that there is no shift wharsoever means that the understanding is still intellectual.

Let's look again The difference between what is real and what is not .

What is Reza?
What is Reza, without the story of Reza?

If I may add something, that is gratitude to you; Luchana
For your kindness and patient in guiding me, so.. Thank you!

You are welcome :-)
I'm here as long as it takes.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

Let's see..

What is a belief made of?

A belief is made of repeating thoughts-stories.

But can you look behind this sensation?

Yes, looking the sensation of fear and behind the sensation.

Behind the fear?

At the first look, my sense of self is behind the fear.
But it's looked again, this sense of self is just like a mirage.
A mirage in the desert but when looking again it's nothingness.

What is there?

Nothing, no-one or nobody's there.

Is there something real to be protected?

No, just an illusory ego or an 'I' which isn't there and nowhere.

Does a sensation protect?

No, a sensation is just being sensed, felt as being experienced.

Can a sensation do anything?

No. The sensation of fear just happens and get noticed.

What can a thought do?

A thought can appear and disappear, nothing else.

Does a thought have an extra power?

No, just it happens simultaneously with sensations and another thought arise with a content of a false belief of a connectedness.

To make connections?

At first, it's looked like a thought is connected to a sensation like an attached velcro, but when in looking again, thoughts weren't connected with the sensations, the velcro is the illusion of self.

What is Reza?

Reza is only a name, a word, four letters.
The point of reference in communication, only a label.
Reza is an unreal image in some thoughts, seen as a story of me.

What is Reza, without the story of Reza?

The story of Reza is the illusory self, includes with the name are:
Memories from childhood until recent, a personal history and background, all of these are only in thoughts here and now.

Without the story of the past, this moment where life really is.
Thoughts only are just imagined words and mental pictures,
The sense of separateness is only sensations and without the story or label, it just some kind of energy, shall pass/come & go.

The subtle shift as a change in perception is what to be expected, the notion of no-self is in the intellectual understanding and hope to be experienced so the veil of thoughts are lifted and the truth is seen, but how? Keep looking afresh everyday is all to be done.

Thanks!
With Love,
Reza.

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

Behind the fear?

At the first look, my sense of self is behind the fear.
But it's looked again, this sense of self is just like a mirage.
A mirage in the desert but when looking again it's nothingness.

What is there?

Nothing, no-one or nobody's there.

Is there something real to be protected?

No, just an illusory ego or an 'I' which isn't there and nowhere.

Does a sensation protect?

No, a sensation is just being sensed, felt as being experienced.

Can a sensation do anything?

No. The sensation of fear just happens and get noticed.

So fear/sensation protects nothing?
Did you look and see this or you just know that there is nothing there?

I'm reading your answers and there is this feeling that they are a bit intellectual.. it's like you want to give the right answers,..but unforrunatelly this is not enogh. You need to look...
I mean literally LOOK.
What is here real and what is imaginary to be real

The subtle shift as a change in perception is what to be expected, the notion of no-self is in the intellectual understanding and hope to be experienced so the veil of thoughts are lifted and the truth is seen, but how? Keep looking afresh everyday is all to be done.

All right. The invitation is to stop THINKING and start LOOKING where the questions are pointing to - honestly, with the curiosity of a child who discovers the world, without knowing in advance what it is and how it is, without concepts.
All that is needed is here.
You are in a room and you are looking for the room, you need to stop and see what is here.

Does the existence and the knowledge of existence are two separate things?


Look in this question for a whole day, many, many times during the day, In all kind of different situations.


Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

Let's LOOK

So fear/sensation protects nothing?

Yes, nothing.
The fear felt as sensations in the chest but without label it's only feeling like some kind of energy, contracted and arises simultaneously with thoughts then the feeling's subsided.
When I see the thoughts, they're scenarios and stories which are only mental pictures and words, just imaginations.

Did you look and see this or you just know that there is nothing there?

I look for the things behind the sensations labeled fear,
But I see only unreal images/pictures and words in thoughts.

I'm reading your answers and there is this feeling that they are a bit intellectual.. it's like you want to give the right answers,..but unforrunatelly this is not enogh. You need to look...

You're right.
That's why the subject of this thread:
Understand (intellectual) but Can't See (experiential)

The invitation is to stop THINKING and start LOOKING

Can't stop thinking, but maybe ignoring thoughts?
I'll try to not THINKING the thoughts, but LOOK (imaginary words and pictures, also sensations and feelings in the body/reality)

Does the existence and the knowledge of existence are two separate things?

I will look in this question for a couple day, please wait.

Thank you so much for your patience and kindness.
I hope this inquiry is fruitful for both, me & you.
Now it's time for me to really LOOK at this,
And not too zooming in the thoughts.
But to see what's ALREADY here...

Regards,
Reza.

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

Wonderfull. Yes, the fear is a sensation and a story about it.

What is to find that?
Can the sensation protect something?

When I see the thoughts, they're scenarios and stories which are only mental pictures and words, just imaginations.

Can this I that see the thoughts be found? And where exactly is its physical location?
Are there thoughts and seeing and I?
Are 3 things existing in reality or there is just thoughts?

Can't stop thinking, but maybe ignoring thoughts?

Exactly, there is nobody who can start or stop thinking.
How does it feel to find this?

Who or what can than ignore thoughts?

I will look in this question for a couple day, please wait.

Yes, incorporate looking in the midst of your daily life, not just once ot twice. Look in every situation..many, many moments during the day.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

Let's LOOK..

You asked:

What is to find that?

Nothing to find or the finder. Just feeling 'this' experience.

Can the sensation protect something?

Just a thought that thinks that a sensation protect something.
Sensations are just here experienced. Without experiencer and also sensations IS the experience. There's no objective sensation.

Can this I that see the thoughts be found?

This also a thought in which the content is claiming to see another thought, it's just an awareness, giving attention happened but there's no-one, no 'I' just another thought, and other thoughts.

And where exactly is its physical location?

Nowhere to be found; can't see, hear, touch, smell, taste, or feel its physical location anywhere. It's just an imagination in a thought.

Are there thoughts and seeing and I?

Only thoughts and sensations, they're all here as one experience.

Are 3 things existing in reality or there is just thoughts

Just thoughts and thinking that the sensations are connected to the thoughts. Actually they're appearing and disappearing with nothing as a controller or attached as the responsible one.

There is only one experience, this: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling, all the five sensations and presence also the arising of thoughts just happening here & now. The strong emotion felt is only a sensation without words, or a concept.

How does it feel to find this?

Feeling lighter. Because all the thoughts are just arising and the contents are just imagined pictures or unreal words which aren't attached to the sensations, a feeling in this 'body' or like some kind of energy without inside or outside or labelling like 'body'

Experiencing a sensasion here & now, then looking at a thought happening, the thought is just fleeting, a weak visualization or wordings, no emotional charge because the sensation is just a feeling to be felt, arising and will be disappeared without attached to a story, label, concept, name, it's just a sense of noticing.

Yes, incorporate looking in the midst of your daily life

Looking again and again, noticing thoughts after thoughts come and go, seeing the contents, feeling all the sensations in 'THIS' here and now, experiencing all without a center, nobody, no me.

Some change in the daily life, more quiet not talking so much, words are just in thoughts not much as speech, whereas before this inquiry, there's always a drive to talk the thoughts.

Nowadays, giving attention a more opening in awareness, there's a sensation happening, just noticing but strangely there's no separate self that choose, only feeling an experience;

Like free falling but calmer, relaxed not panicked...

Thank you so much Luchana,

Don't really care anymore, dropping the expectation to be able to see that there's no self/I/me as an illusion of thoughts. They're all just concepts, also a thought! This experience is already here and now just enjoying the sceneries (sounds, tastes, aromas, feelings)

It's okay to stop the thread here, not feeling any urge to do more.
Felt complete and satisfied with all there is, this is just perfect.
Never find the 'I', me only seen as a word, a thought, a label.

Let's finish with love, and just love as an energy felt.
Feeling gratitude, cannot think anything anymore.
Wanna enjoy this life, flowing with it. Experience.

With love/gratitude; Reza.
Thank you for this experience.
Being guided by Luchana is the best!