Mutual inquiry: separate self

[Ronaldo]

Great!
Is there any decrease in seeking?
Was there any shift since we started this dialogue?

Do you see that the body is a pure thought concept?

Yes, with awareness, without identifying with thoughts

What do you mean "with awareness"? Are you saying there is awareness in the body?

Can you see that a thought is now explaining where it exists in another thought concept?

yes, however I still feel I somehow need the thoughts, or they are useful for some reason. Strange.

Thoughts are useful, we're not at war with thoughts or trying to go back and become infants. We are however noting the illusion they play and how past and future stories rob us from what is actually here - the simplicity, beauty and magic that is life.

[Camus]

Hi Ron,

"Thoughts are useful, we're not at war with thoughts or trying to go back and become infants. We are however noting the illusion they play and how past and future stories rob us from what is actually here - the simplicity, beauty and magic that is life."

I would agree. Thoughts are not the problem, it’s the attachment to them, the spinning of a story supporting an ego self that’s completely fabricated.

Is there any decrease in seeking?

No. That’s would require conceptualization and analysis of some experience, and likely generate some script to support a self.

Was there any shift since we started this dialogue?

No, who would know this?

Let me offer some more insight into where I’m at…again, just more thoughts and analysis, and probably not very helpful.

It appears that to separate “direct experience” and “awareness” from thoughts is just another construct of “self” trying to see itself. It can’t be done, again, at least in “my” experience. However, one can learn to not chase thoughts and see clearly that they create stories and identities to support an ego “self” that are fabrications.

As you know an intellectual insight is worthless in seeing though this delusion of a self. I feel that an epiphany can also be worthless, likely emotionally charged and dangerous on this path. Someone could take this “insight” or “epiphany/kensho/satori” as the end of “self,” and just reconstitute the “self” as this new person, with perhaps even a bigger ego. We’ve all seen this is spiritual practices.

My experience has been that there is no experience, understanding, or confidence. It’s an “undoing” and is very humbling.

How does one know? Many of the masters and sages suggest an ongoing practice going deeper and deeper without a knowing, just humbly continuing the practice. Not in ignorance, but with open eyes. Not with a will or self-directed effort, but a determination without expectations.

So where am I stuck? I read the records of the great masters and sages, the sutras and "think" I need to go deeper. If I create expectations, then I start searching again. There is still a “self.”

Best regards,
Camus

[Ronaldo]

Hi Camus,

> R: Is there any decrease in seeking?
No. That’s would require conceptualization and analysis of some experience, and likely generate some script to support a self.

> R: Was there any shift since we started this dialogue?
No, who would know this?

I am asking a question about your day to day life, it's not a pointer. Your answers however are logical constructs, postulations: "that would require", "who would know [there was a shift]". It's possible that the answer to both is no, but it should be based on noticing, is there less seeking happening? Was there any shift in how I perceive "myself" and the "world"?. Based on our dialogue I felt like there was some change, a deepening and some added clarity. As you say, it's also easy to get delusional and turn a glimpse into an idea, and continue believing in the idea without looking again and again, seeing at any moment that the "I" is an idea.
Another common expectation is that once the illusion is seen, it will end. No, it will keep yo-yoing and you'll find yourself totally in the story at times, and then seeing the story.

LU will not take you to a total annihilation of self, we are focused on the first step - realizing that there is no self, that it is an illusion. Seeing clearly that you are not the thinker, doer, chooser. Seeing that there is no free will and no separateness from life.
I cannot take you to a place where there will be no trace of ego, no thoughts, nothing but pure awareness. As long as you are alive you will have likes and dislikes, probably some reactions, will continue to experience emotions and suffering and some seeking will only end when they end. There are many beliefs other than the self, and as long as they remain, the self will raise its head again and again.

If that's your goal, there are places to go and continue the search, but this part needs to be seen clearly, so my question is again - are the above seen or are they a mere intellectual conclusions?
When there is a no-self realization, something shifts, relaxes, feels right. If you did not experience any of these, we're not done.

I think you do create expectations, you're looking for complete clarity and some cosmic understanding, so you're simply overlooking what stares you in the face - the story of Camus seeking for clarity inside the story of Camus, the character thinks he will find clarity if he just keeps looking. This must be very frustrating to chase your tail, always finding the illusion smirking back at you.

So where do you see yourself regarding the above?
Is there still doubt that the self is an illusion?
Is there doubt about being the thinker of thoughts and doer of things?

[Camus]

Hi Ron,

Thank you for your thoughtful assessment.

Back to the questions?

Is there any decrease in seeking?

On a day to day basis?…not really. I have not really had any significant shifting for years, yet I wonder if (as you expressed) that I have turned something simple into another script or story and just keep reinforcing itself. Hence, the real value in your probing and guidance. I had significant shifts early on in my practice and even in earlier phases of my life. Experiences of a “light bulb” turning on in the dark. Yet, they don’t appear to have been significant enough for me to have dropped all seeking. Then, again, perhaps my experience now is a “light bulb” turning on in the light.

Was there any shift since we started this dialogue?

No significant shifts noticed. However, I have found the exchange between us insightful and beneficial. If there is no reality to our own fabricated stories, then is there a reality to the dialogue with another? I think it’s worth exploring. I think there is value, particularly in seeing blind spots. How separate are we, really? Another problem is spiritual bypassing, which seems to be common in all contemplative practices and even among well-known teachers. I also think your insight into one expecting the illusion to end once seen through is also true with me. And so, there is a definite "yo-yoing" thing going on.

So where do you see yourself regarding the above?
Is there still doubt that the self is an illusion?
Is there doubt about being the thinker of thoughts and doer of things?

Have I clearly seen that the doer, thinker, chooser, “the story of me” is an illusion? When asked by my teacher on several occasions “what remains?” My answer is “not a thing; the ‘me’ has been seen through, yet I go deeper, not knowing.” For me, it’s a question that can’t be answered completely. His response is to probe even more sincerely into the question of “who is this?” until the awareness (samādhi) completely dissolves, and nothing remains. Then, he says, you will know without a doubt.

How do I view and experience life now?....its beautiful, with all its ups and downs. Things seems to be as there are, without much angst. If something creates conflict, and emotions, my reactions diminishes fairly quickly. Is this due to a practice, an experience or just life...who can say. [smile]

Much appreciated,
Camus

[Ronaldo]

Thank you 😌

Not everyone experiences a dramatic shift, it can be subtle and take years perhaps. It's more and more "difficult" to experience something big when the surprise factor is gone. Let's for example look at the case of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny et al. As a child at some point you may have believed any of them are real, your parents or friends talked about it as if it was true, and you took it at face value. At some point later it has been revealed to be a story, fake with no substance. Maybe at that time it was a "a-ha" moment, a tiny drop in a belief. But if I tell you that now, you feel nothing, and why would you? You've seen it, heard it, it's done.

The self is no different! You've heard it since birth, language (and thoughts using language) continuously reinforce the self, you cannot think or say a sentence without some explicit or implied I/me/mine all over it. When you actually look, there is no self to be found, there is no Santa to be found either, so why don't you believe in Santa? Because it's a consensus? Good question ha?


With your spiritual millage it's hard to knock you over with a pointer that will cause a segmentation fault and a core dump... (I hope the CS reference is clear). I did my best but somehow either you have already seen it, or you're not really looking at these pointers, not fully, and you cling to the thought stories, which is it? I suspect you don't always notice that you're in thoughts, fully immersed in the story of me and so this is mistaken for reality, for actual experience. The self illusion is actually simple, you may keep overlooking it with complex stories and desire for the self to end, but who wants it to end? Do you see the paradox? It's the outlaw leading the manhunt to catch the outlaw.

Your description of how life is now, does suggest that you've seen this through, that life flows and the stickiness and heaviness has lifted.

Seeking can and does come back after this first step, even if it's clearly seen there are emotions and traumas that just play like old records and the self is pulled out of the attic when they trigger. It will not end until you deal with these emotions.


Interested in looking into emotions?

[Camus]

Dear Ron,

This has been very helpful. Thank you very much.

Lots of wisdom and good counsel in your words.

You know, there was a dramatic shift a number of years ago. I remember telling a good friend then that all I feel is love in my heart and it never goes away. There has also been a constant awareness that never leaves, not even in sleep. I actually wrote something about it several years ago. I occasionally read it, every now and then. I think the real difference now, is completely destroying any attachment to it, or any notion of having something. Yes, a self.

Interested in looking into emotions?

Yes.

Much love,
Camus

[Ronaldo]

Dear Camus,
Thank you for the kind words, this is much appreciated!

Yes, an attachment to a past awakening experience will hold you back and even prevent you for seeing. You have a hidden expectation that this is what it means and this is what it takes. But can that be true? It's now as good as that amazing meal you had 10 years ago, ah it was so damn good! Can you eat it now? Isn't comparing this food on your table to that meal assures you'll not enjoy this meal? You get the idea.
No special state is permanent, and becoming awake is not a state, it's not even special! It's simple it's "normal", it how it has always been. You gain no special powers and no special knowledge, if anything you become less special. I love this quote by Ram Dass: “The game is not about becoming somebody, it's about becoming nobody.”

OK my friend, let's take a look at emotions - this is for tomorrow.

There are a few interesting ways to look at these, I'm going to start with what an emotion actually is, let's break it down.

Please find a quiet time in your day where you will not be disturbed, and just relax and breath for a while.

1. Bring up a thought that causes you some mild sadness or stress, longing, loneliness, something with enough intensity and bite, but also something you can handle (no traumas at this point).
Notice how the thought seem to raise a body sensation.

2. locate that sensation and find the tag, e.g. “contraction in my chest” or “tensing of my forehead”, "clenching of my heart"

3. Note the normal thought reaction that wants to run away from the sensation and the thought, but don't.
Drop any thought that go into analysis and projection about what you have or haven't done, no analysis, just keep focusing on the sensation! Drop the tag such as "tightness in my throat", and just focus on the sensation alone, bring up the thought as needed to keep the sensation happening (keep feeding that emotion).

4. Look at this sensation, try to feel it fully, look at it as if it was a rare type of butterfly, you are only examining it by looking, trying to sense it fully... curiosity is your friend! What is this sensation made of? What is this without any tags or thoughts?

Is there anything more to this fear/sadness/stress than the thoughts and the sensations? Can you stay with it?

Please describe the sensation, where it was felt, how it felt, and what you found.
What is an emotion made of?

Try to repeat it a second time, what happens?

With love
Ron

[Camus]

Please describe the sensation, where it was felt, how it felt, and what you found.
What is an emotion made of?

Sensations were felt just above my eyes and in the left hip and in the left lower back. By noticing the sensation just above my eyes, it quickly disappeared. The sensation in the hip and back was slight, and dull but persisted. It was localized in the lower left back area, but slowly lost a localized sensation and blended with my breath. The emotion quickly disappeared. I had to consciously bring it back. I did this again and again. I tried to not make adjustment to my sitting just to experience the sensation.

Try to repeat it a second time, what happens?

I did it for several (4) emotional memories and the experience was the same. I sat through this all for about an hour and a half. Towards the end of the time, the sensation in the lower back area grew slightly. I straighten a bit and made a slight muscle adjustment to the hip area and the sensation subsided. I could only hold the emotions for a few seconds each time. It took some thinking to hold the emotion. Yes, emotions are just thoughts.

[Ronaldo]

Are you saying the back and hip sensations were brought up by the thought, or was that caused by discomfort of sitting too long? I never experienced body sensations in these areas as a result of unpleasant thoughts. In my experience any thoughts of stress, anger, regret, loneliness etc. always bring sensations from the head, face, neck, solar plexus, chest or to the abdomen areas, never anything like the back or hips, so I want to make sure we're on the same page - the exercise was about finding the location of the body sensation brought up by the unwanted thought.

Yes, emotions are just thoughts.

Aren't you missing something?

The emotion is not a mere thought, it's a thought + a body sensation and usually more thoughts about that thought. When you do this properly you notice that any thought you dislike is really a sensation you don't like. And why don't you like it? What is wrong with it (unless it's actually painful)?

When you stay with the sensation and let it be there without resistance, it may lose some of its power, that's what I wanted you to experience.

Maybe try it again.

[Camus]

Hi Ron,

I’m sorry for the confusion and the missed opportunity to be clear. Let me try again and if it’s not clear, I’ll take a shot at the exercise again.

I had two experiences with body sensations during my sit with emotional memories this morning. The first sensation was a tension above the eyes. When I noticed it, it quickly diminished and disappeared. No doubt, this is the one you wanted me to focus on for this exercise to see the connection of the emotional thought with body sensations. The emotional memory that might have induced the sensation faded quickly. I had to consciously bring back the emotional memory, so the sensation didn’t last long enough to be able to be too curious and just watch it and experience it. The second body sensation was in the hip area and it was persistent, so I watched it. Yes, no doubt, it was just a discomfort from a long sit. It can usually be fixed with a slight body adjustment. For the exercise, I decided to not to fix it and just watched it. Perhaps that had no value for this exercise since it may not have been consciously linked to the emotional memory. Then again, maybe unconsciously it was induced by the emotions.

During several week-long intensive retreats, I have done this many times. Many years ago, after a divorce, I sat with very intense emotional suffering. It was manifested as pain throughout my body, particularly in my shoulders, lower back and face and was strongly linked to many cascading thoughts. I spent many hours watching it, sort of noticing some movement from one spot to another and its variations with the breath. After a while the tense or pain was not a problem, and usually by then the emotion had also diminished.

Much love,
Camus

[Ronaldo]

Hi Camus,
Ok, that makes sense now, thanks for the clarification.
I feel like we covered most of what LU is focused on. Is there anything you'd like to discuss further?
If you're feeling satisfied with what we've covered, I'd like to give you a set of final questions to see if anything remains unclear or missing, let me know if you'd like to proceed?

Regards,
Ron

[Camus]

Dear Ron,

I don’t have any questions. I’ve left that up to you….and you’ll done a wonderful job!

I’ve felt that we have explored this together. Thank you for your sincere guidance and probing.

I did explore again this morning, in a longer group sitting, sensations of "being" with any emotional thoughts. Again, towards the end of the sit, I felt a tension in my left hip and lower back. It intensified and I watched it. There was a strong emotion that seem to be hidden in the sensation and it surfaced. My back tensed up even more and my breathing became more labored. A series of thoughts cascaded through the sensation. Thoughts about “the practice” and some words of my teacher that had cut deeply into something at my core. I watched it for some time, about 40 minutes or so. The emotion subsided and the tension was released. The sit ended without any tension.

I have often found the practice of “sitting” to be a purification process. To sit is in my bones. Intensive retreats will often push me beyond my abilities and perceived boundaries. These sensations in the body surfacing have become wonderful and often painful moments to seeing into deep emotional scripts, blind stops and hidden traces of a subconscious self. Once they are seen clearly the work of fixing things that need to be fixed become much easier and crystal clear. Thank you for pushing me.

Much love,
Camus

[Ronaldo]

Dear Camus,
Thank you!

I’ve felt that we have explored this together. Thank you for your sincere guidance and probing.

We did! Guiding is a great way to deepen and freshen up, every question and statement is an opportunity to see.

With these questions, just answer from experience, they aren't pointers, rather an attempt to see if everything is clear and if the concepts of the self as a separate entity with volition has been seen through. Take your time, and please answer all quesitons.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

With love
Ron

[Camus]

Dear Ron,

My responses to your questions....

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No

Was there ever?

No

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

A self is a conceptualization of an identity that is shaped by thoughts over a lifetime. It shows up in a world view that we often believe to be the truth, yet in looking closely it can be clearly seen that it is fabricated.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It changes everything about how we see and engage in the world

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

No big changes. Many years of practice. Wonderful to go back to “basics” and walk through it with a guide. A life unfolding and an intense practice often require one to reassess everything, letting go of accumulated notions that can build-up over time.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Refreshing to go back to the basics of being present, looking closer at the actual experience of being. One could say that the moment one realizes that the world and identity one believed in is a complete fabrication is like being in a dark place and having a candle lit. It is dramatic! Coming back to this again, I would liken it to having a candle lit in the light of day. One must look closely to see it, and its dramatic impact is much less. My experience in an extended practice is going ever deeper. In doing so, one must be careful to not recast a new improved “self” and beliefs into ever deeper insights.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are illusions of thoughts of a separate self. However, it is nihilistic to concluded that we don’t engage in the world. There is much to do. When the self is seen for what it is, a creation of identity of thoughts, then one can be present to what is there now and engage in what needs to be done. Many old patterns of self-centered identities, scripts, etc can be detangled, but it takes time and effort. Seeing with fresh eyes our true nature and allowing subconscious emotions and old patterns to surface is a practice of a lifetime. Going deeper and deeper.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

I have no idea of how things happen. There is a wonderful presence that is before knowing, understanding, and discriminating thoughts. By quietly sitting, allowing thoughts to settle, I have found a wonderful space of presence. There is nothing to do or be, or understand, just experiencing sensations and a mind (thoughts) settling. With time sitting and engaging in the world are the same.

Thoughts create structure and forms and enable us to engage in a world. Yes, these forms and constructs create relationships, science, technology and societies. We have a body, yet that body is not separated from a much larger existence. Without an identity of a separate self, we can experience this holistic existence.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

“I” am responsible for “my” actions. Yet, there is no “I” to be found. The world is as it is! “We” or “me” are wonderfully entangled in a universe that is ultimately beyond comprehension or control.

Without an identity of a self to engage, protect and feed, it is clear what needs to be done. It’s saying I’m sorry for some difficult interaction with another (a recent difficult encounter with an old friend). It’s taking responsibility for engaging in the world to help others and alleviating suffering (listening to a friend express his existential crisis and the meaning of life). It’s not attaching to others, possessions, or ideas or requiring these things to be construed in a way to make “me” happy or comfortable (seeing clearly differences and telling my partner that she is a beautiful individual and not trying to define her or expect her to conform to some expectations that I might have formed).

6) Anything to add?

no

Much love and appreciation,
Camus

[Ronaldo]

Thank you, I enjoyed reading this!
I'm going to ask other guides to take a look, in case we missed anything.
I'll be back soon.

Much love
Ron