Undertand but Can't See

[Luchana]

Hi Reza

you did a wonderful observation!

What is here without labels?

All the sensations, feeling as one experience; Here is 'this'

Is there an experiencER of this/whatever is happening at all?

Is there anyone or anything having the experience of whatever is happening?



I sense that it is time to look at Bahiya sutta again with fresh eyes :-)
You already know that all is welcome and what is meant exactly by the end of suffering.

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)

Please read it several times, and check it in experience, line by line, if it’s true.
Let me know what you find.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi! Luchana,
You asked:

Is there an experiencER of this/whatever is happening at all?

No, no experiencer is found!
There are just experiencing here:
Whatever is this happening, all sensations.

Is there anyone or anything having the experience of whatever is happening?

No-thing and No-one!
Everything's all there is only this:
Seeing, hearing, sensings are happening.

Let me know what you find.

There is no 'me' to find anything or even my-self!
There is no 'I' or any other subjects and there is no objects too:
Only sensing sensations and 'looking' thoughts arising, they just happen.

There is no doer or the one whom suffered, the end suffering is already has!
They're only stories from thoughts with appearing sensations, which felt as emotions:
Anytime when looking, again and again, nobody can't be found anywhere but in thoughts.


Thanks!
Love:
Reza.

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

No, no experiencer is found!
There are just experiencing here:
Whatever is this happening, all sensations.

Nice :-)
And how does it feel?

No-thing and No-one!
Everything's all there is only this:
Seeing, hearing, sensings are happening.

:-)
Where is Reza?
Is there Reza without a story about Reza?

There is no 'me' to find anything or even my-self!
There is no 'I' or any other subjects and there is no objects too:
Only sensing sensations and 'looking' thoughts arising, they just happen.

There is no doer or the one whom suffered, the end suffering is already has!
They're only stories from thoughts with appearing sensations, which felt as emotions:
Anytime when looking, again and again, nobody can't be found anywhere but in thoughts.

Beautiful observation!
What we do usually on this stage is to ask some final questions, are you up for them?

And

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?


Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

And how does it feel?

Feeling just as usual. A little relief. And nothing changes;
Seeing and hearing are still happening as with other sensations.
Also some thoughts appear, with a content: "This is it? Yes, this!"
But then, another thought comes and the other thought's gone.

Where is Reza?

Reza is nowhere to be found; Reza is only a label, just a story.

Is there Reza without a story about Reza?

Without a story, there's no one anywhere but only in thoughts.

...are you up for them?

Let's see what happens...

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Let's see; automatic habits, triggers, and traumas, etc.
Look repeatedly?

Thank you Luchana,
With Love; Reza.

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

Feeling just as usual. A little relief. And nothing changes;
Seeing and hearing are still happening as with other sensations.
Also some thoughts appear, with a content: "This is it? Yes, this!"
But then, another thought comes and the other thought's gone.

Yes, the simplicity is always surprising :-)

Where is Reza?

Reza is nowhere to be found; Reza is only a label, just a story.

Is there Reza without a story about Reza?

Without a story, there's no one anywhere but only in thoughts.

Beautiful.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Let's see; automatic habits, triggers, and traumas, etc.
Look repeatedly?

Everything will start falling into place because you cannot believe in something you see is a lie. But when - no one knows :-)
Looking is the key, yes. Looking and looking and more looking. In the beginning it may seemingly require more efforts, but gradually it will become so normal, that you will wonder how living in the realm of thought is even possible.
Seeing that there is no one running the show, controling thoughts and sensations is one thing - and yes, the main belief dropped. But there are many other beliefs and they will gradually failing apart. It's like a free fall. It may last weeks, months. years..a lifetime:-) Like I mentioed - this is just the begining, sensations will continue arising and thoughts will continue claiming this and that. But when an emotion pops up and trigger surtain feeling it is not because the self is back, but because some of the our woonds are triggered.
And yes looking and inqiuring continue, but not just for the self, the me, Reza, but for the one who is attacked, or the one who is afraid, the one who is angry....
Here in the forum or in FB group you can continue with further investigation and explorations.

Let's see what happens...

Here are the questions. Please answer them and give some details and examples where asked.
Express it as fully as you see it now. Don't rush, when you're ready.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

There is no seperate self, the 'I' or 'me' only existed in thoughts, nowhere to be found in reality, no shape and no form, just as a label in language and concept, it's so simple, really!

Was there ever?

Never. Only in memories but a memory is a content of a thought.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

The illusion of separate self shows up when language and labeling were started using by toddlers, as tought by parents (or as the story goes, don't really know again if babies really existed).

In the experience: the sensations are showing up, then in some thoughts and speeches or in writtings there is a concept of an 'I' as a subject and a separate object not just what's happening.

Then a thought appeared with the content of a story about oneself as the experiencer, a point of view, referential position, whereas in reality there is none, no-one to experience separatedness.

Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Life just continues to be the same as it was before.

And also an added knowledge (or just a memory in a thought?) to be able to see that there's never a separate self again and again.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Seeing happens, more looking and noticing more sensations in 'here' along with the appearance and disappearance of thoughts.

Thoughts just come and go, and life felt more open or relaxed with so much richness in viewing, hearing, tasting, smelling, etc.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The difference is just another thought appearing with the content of an insight that Reza is just a character in a story, in the real life there is no separate 'self', only one 'this' and all the experiences are flowing 'here' whereas in the past few days, there is a belief that 'I' or this Reza is a real entity with capability to do something.

Not again, and never really, the belief of 'I' is just a thought too!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

No last bit, no causality, no time-continuity, it just seen and heard.

Looking along with all the sensations and the thoughts happens.

So, just LOOK (it pushed but not-me who made the will to look)

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

They are all ideas, happening only in the story of someone, but there is no one, just the unfoldings of life and all those story of decision/intention/free-will/choice/control happens in thoughts.

What makes things happen?

Don't know. Things just happen.

How does it work?

Don't know too. There are some explanations in thoughts but it's not real. In reality there are clarity and doubts, looking clearly and some unknown darkness are experienced, so looking continues..

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

When this Reza, the 'I' thought to decide to leave his wife, it felt like a solid decision and planned to chose some actions but in reality of what's happening just happens, the relationship just continued, experiencing sensations in the body, lips, skins, with seeing and hearing when making love comes along with thoughts arising never affecting reality, so all the thoughts are not the truth.

b) What are you responsible for?

Nothing. It's like a joke!

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

This story of Reza appears as if he had responsibilities at work and at home; as a father, a son, a worker, a husband, a friend, etc.

But really, what happened is whatever happened, no doer or decider of something to do as a responsibility and there is no one to be held responsible of every actions he did. Just a story.

This is just a story and responsibilities are ideas or concepts in memories/thoughts only. In reality, no one really knows how :-)

6) Anything to add?

Yes, there are some misteries and the knowledge of no-self doesn't illumate all of the unknown, so no enlightenment yet.

Maybe you can give another pointers to other truths in life?


Thank you,
Love, Reza.

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

thank you for your answers.

Let's look this one:

6) Anything to add?

Yes, there are some misteries and the knowledge of no-self doesn't illumate all of the unknown, so no enlightenment yet.

Maybe you can give another pointers to other truths in life?

Can you expand a little bit here:

What are these misteries that you revef to?
What needs illuminaton?
Who or what is looking for enlightenment?
Is there an expectation that there is more to this?
Does the seeking continue?


Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

What are these misteries that you revef to?

Just some thoughts passing by, like the intellect of how's all this works, but it is inconceivable and yet can be directly seen.

What needs illuminaton?

A thought which its content that want to understand everything, conceptualize the truth or reality, cannot be turned off.

Who or what is looking for enlightenment?

Another thought. It's not real but keep coming with stories. The illusion is still there although now known as a false belief.

Is there an expectation that there is more to this?

Some issues inside the content of thinking, it's just uncontrollable. But now just trusting the process by direct experiences.

Does the seeking continue?

Seeking becomes seeing, still continue to look along with pure sensations and realizing thoughts' appearances and its stories.

Thank You,
Love, Reza

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

thank you for the clarifications.
Seeking relaxes, eventually stops and exploration begins.To see that no one is in charch is just the first step, just the begining. Repeatedly looking again and again. Every idea of how this is and every belief of how things are is now beginning to come to be seen, acknowledged and released. This may take time and no one knows how long, for each one is different.

I'm going to share your replies with the other fellow guides, so they can see if I missed something. They may or may not have some more questions for you. If yes - I will brings those questions here.

This may take some time.

Much love
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

there are quesions from the other gudies:

An added knowledge (or just a memory in a thought?) to be able to see that there's never a separate self again and again."

Please explain how seeing no-self is dependent on knowledge or memory.
Who has that knowledge?

And also these:

And also an added knowledge (or just a memory in a thought?) to be able to see that there's never a separate self again and again.

In those moments when a thought comes up saying "there is no self", do you actually SEE it, or that's just a thought reminder?

Yes, there are some misteries and the knowledge of no-self doesn't illumate all of the unknown, so no enlightenment yet.

What is enlightenment for you? How do you imagine it?
What do you expect to happen with enlightenment?

Maybe you can give another pointers to other truths in life?

What is missing?
What is that you are looking for?
What is not complete?

Take your time.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

I'm sorry I need time because of Reza's life is crumbling down...

My wife cheated and just confessed sleeping with another man!
And my boss is going to cut my carreer at the office these days.

Please, maybe you have some advices?

Regards,
Reza

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

I understand...there are tough moments in life happening. And it is happening for all of us and there is no exception. Seeing no self will not fix everything once and for all.

What might help in these situations is to look for the self, me, Reza who is hurt, the one who is suffering, the one who is jealous, the frightened one, the insecure one..

Look for this one in these situations.


If some intence feelings come up - no need to push them away, embrace everything, welcome and acknowledge.

And when there is a relaxation you might continue looking.

Would you like to share what comes up?

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Would you like to share what comes up?

Yes..
Many thoughts come up, swirling and felt so heavy!
So many/much thoughts-stories than the usual appearances..

Noticing the sensations also help, at first felt more tightness.
Then when seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting all the happening not just zooming into the thoughts;

The experience is felt lighter and more peaceful..

So when thoughts arising; realized that their contents aren't real.

Experiencing sensations are real & content of the thoughts aren't.
The belief of a self or the stories in thoughts is the suffering.

So, now is the time to inquire more: who is 'me' that suffers?
Where is this 'I' that angry, hurt, jealous, afraid, insecure, etc.

Looking for an 'I' which am not. And there was never anywhere.
All this tough moments happening is just a story. Tough is an idea.

The reality is just pure experiencing, all the sensasions are happening now and here:

There's only one life-ing; only the seen, the heard, the felt, the cognized (like in "The Bahiya Sutta")

Reality is sensing all the colors, forms/shape, sounds, touch, taste, aromas, feelings and thoughts arising without any doer, experiencer, thinker, witness or a separate self.

So; who am I? Where is this me?
The inquiry (look) continues..

Thank you Luchana,
With Love, Reza

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

I'm glad to read that feelings are not to intense and you are still up for this.
When the water is calm so to speak it is easear to inquire into these.

Now let's go back to my previos post and look the questions from the other guides.

Here there are again:

An added knowledge (or just a memory in a thought?) to be able to see that there's never a separate self again and again.

Please explain how seeing no-self is dependent on knowledge or memory.
Who has that knowledge?



And these:

And also an added knowledge (or just a memory in a thought?) to be able to see that there's never a separate self again and again.

In those moments when a thought comes up saying "there is no self", do you actually SEE it, or that's just a thought reminder?

Yes, there are some misteries and the knowledge of no-self doesn't illumate all of the unknown, so no enlightenment yet.

What is enlightenment for you? How do you imagine it?
What do you expect to happen with enlightenment?

Maybe you can give another pointers to other truths in life?

What is missing?
What is that you are looking for?
What is not complete?

Take your time.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

The feelings were very intense but I'm still up for this,
I can separate what is real in sensations here & now.
And what is not real like the contents of thoughts.

I almost divorced my wife and still loosing my job anyday,
But all the pains and emotions shouldn't be more miserable,
Because suffering's just add the story and touch the wounds.

Here we go again:

Please explain how seeing no-self is dependent on knowledge or memory?

Actually, if I were a baby without any prior knowledge or memory or concepts, even language, the baby shall not see a self.
So just look without any belief, SEE that there is no self.

Who has that knowledge?

No one in this world.

And also an added knowledge (or just a memory in a thought?)

Just a memory in a thought.

In those moments when a thought comes up saying "there is no self", do you actually SEE it, or that's just a thought reminder?

I see a thought which is a reminder of an unreal separate self,
But in reality there is no self, only pure experience of sensations.

What is enlightenment for you?

No me or 'I' here, enlightenment just a story or an idea.

How do you imagine it?

Imagination will come and go without "me/I" to imagine anything.

What do you expect to happen with enlightenment?

Who is this "me/I" that expect something, nothing enlightened.
Enlightenment just like falling, just happens without any effort.
Enlightenment is seeing that there's no self anywhere by no-one.

What is missing?

Nothing, just this and this is all there is.
All the happenings is one experience.
But no experiencer or no self.

What is that you are looking for?

There is no "I" who look for something.
Seeing or looking just happens.
Without any see-er or doer.

What is not complete?

There are nothing incomplete or completed.
This is just something in a thought or thoughts.
Life flows through the experiences of actual sensations.

Thanks Luchana,
Regards, Reza