Well here it is Jimw!

[jimw]

By "What if in your case there was a gentle wander through the gate rather than a big 'pop' ? " you mean I might have missed the gentle wander? How could I check if I really permanently grasp it rather than just being able to correct my thoughts? How can I check I'm "through"?

The thing is, that what one person experiences, another may not.

What if there is no gate to wander through, just reality as it is in this moment? And this one. And this one.... and again ? What if 'this' is 'it' ?

[Tundra]

I grasp the fact that there's just this moment and everything that arises in it, and so on until the end. This is it, I logically know it, and I know I'll know it forever (or until disproven ;) ) but I feel like self will ignore that unless corrected still. I seem to gather that once you see it you can never unsee it, but it doesn't seem seen to me, just believed and proven true. There's no gate to cross in the future, always just the present but I am not "seeing" in the present. I'm thinking things such as "there is no-self, there is no "I", these thoughts are just coming up from nowhere and will fade in the next moment, they're not me, an "I" isn't here and if it's not here it never was and cannot be". Could you interpret that (or just continue with your process)?

[jimw]

.....but I feel like self will ignore that unless corrected still.

What is it that needs correcting ?

I seem to gather that once you see it you can never unsee it, but it doesn't seem seen to me, just believed and proven true

If it is believed and proven true, then where's the problem ?

Could it be that you are waiting to see 'no-self', a bit like waiting to see 'no-Santa' or 'no-tooth fairy' ? Do you see how this subtle labelling works ?

[Tundra]

"This is it, I logically know it, and I know I'll know it forever (or until disproven ;) ) but I feel like self will ignore that unless corrected still." "What is it that needs correcting ?"
Meaning, I know it but I don't feel a shift has happened where it is known by default, only that self-based thoughts will come and I will correct them if I notice them.

I know it, I've gone over all the things in life and know them to be real except for any amount of control over them. Just I feel the problem above, and that (without quoting people :) ) I gather they're "definitely done, whereas I'm worried that I might not be.

Also a few thoughts such as "Jim is going to give up on me, I'm being too hard-headed, why can't I get it?" and such are arising. I note them as just thoughts and so on but do thoughts such as those arise once you're liberated?

Just so you know, I'm on all day so I'll always reply fast like this :)

[jimw]

Meaning, I know it but I don't feel a shift has happened where it is known by default, only that self-based thoughts will come and I will correct them if I notice them.

Why correct the thoughts ? Isn't that just switching one label to another ? LOOK - see the labelling machine of the mind in action.

I gather they're "definitely done, whereas I'm worried that I might not be.

Answer this for me. Could it be that you are looking to see a magical entity called 'no-self' - a bit like recognizing that Santa is not real, and then seeking a 'non-Santa', an 'antimatter Santa' ?

Also a few thoughts such as "Jim is going to give up on me, I'm being too hard-headed, why can't I get it?" and such are arising. I note them as just thoughts and so on but do thoughts such as those arise once you're liberated?

I won't give up just yet ;)

Thoughts arise. They will probably continue to arise. They can also be 'self-centred' - it's OK, it's like imagining the Bogeyman- you can still think about it and dream up what it looks like, it's just that you know that it's not real.

Just so you know, I'm on all day so I'll always reply fast like this :)

As well as answering the questions above, go about your normal routine and just notice when thoughts / sensations arise. See if there is anyone behind them. See whether you are waiting to see the 'anti-Santa'. I only check in here a couple of times a day, so don't hang around - go and drink tea or read the paper :)

[Tundra]

I'm either there or right on the cusp, so thank you so much Jim!

"Why correct the thoughts ? Isn't that just switching one label to another ? LOOK - see the labelling machine of the mind in action."
This seems to be helping. Not only are thoughts arising without a thinking self, but they're mislabeling events, actions, and so on as having been set into motion by me.

"Could it be that you are looking to see a magical entity called 'no-self' - a bit like recognizing that Santa is not real, and then seeking a 'non-Santa', an 'antimatter Santa' ? "

This also clarified it a bit more for me. So it's looking for the lack of self, lack of do-er, rather than seeing the "holy spirit of no-self", there's the sight of the void where the self was thought to be. Right?

"it's like imagining the Bogeyman- you can still think about it and dream up what it looks like, it's just that you know that it's not real. "

If the bogeyman's not real, who's that hiding under my bed? ;)
This is all helping, I feel. I really don't know if I'm "blue" yet though.

" go about your normal routine and just notice when thoughts / sensations arise. See if there is anyone behind them. See whether you are waiting to see the 'anti-Santa'."
Been doing that for the last 3 days! I'll keep reading through this thread and doing these things.

[jimw]

"Why correct the thoughts ? Isn't that just switching one label to another ? LOOK - see the labelling machine of the mind in action."
This seems to be helping. Not only are thoughts arising without a thinking self, but they're mislabeling events, actions, and so on as having been set into motion by me.

Yep. The labelling (or thought construction, or whatever we call it) can be of use, but can also be false. Which if these thoughts is real: tree... school... the tooth fairy ? Tree - well you can see it and feel it (even though it is made up other components that are little tiny trees. School - this is a bit more nebulous,a load of buildings, with teachers and students and support staff. Tooth fairy - well, we can imagine what it might look like, how much money it might give you for a tooth, but....

This also clarified it a bit more for me. So it's looking for the lack of self, lack of do-er, rather than seeing the "holy spirit of no-self", there's the sight of the void where the self was thought to be. Right?

Well, if you look with intent, it is impossible to find a separate self. Personally I haven't seen a discrete identifiable 'no-self'!

"it's like imagining the Bogeyman- you can still think about it and dream up what it looks like, it's just that you know that it's not real. "

If the bogeyman's not real, who's that hiding under my bed? ;)
This is all helping, I feel. I really don't know if I'm "blue" yet though.

Well, we can keep looking until you are sure.

Just keep looking and seeing what happens.

1. Watch the body. Breathing, sleeping, eating, using the bathroom. Is there a 'self' or 'anti-self' there ?
2. Watch the thoughts. A they all true, are they all 'solid' or are some sort of reliable as labels / concept and some just garbage ?
3. Sensations. What do they actually feel like ? If you don't name them, what are they ?

Happy looking :) There is no need to rush !

[Tundra]

Nothing new to report, I am just checking in as instructed!

[jimw]

Nothing new ? What have you seen / felt / experienced ?

[Tundra]

Well, I from 5 days ago until two days ago I was a bit overthinking and oversearching for this, I thought I'd take a day to relax from it, so I just went around and did my thing. Of course while doing whatever I did I noticed there was no I doing those things, choosing with what to entertain myself, where my tastes and such came from, etc.

"There is no need to rush !", so I tried not to. :)

[jimw]

Well, I from 5 days ago until two days ago I was a bit overthinking and oversearching for this, I thought I'd take a day to relax from it, so I just went around and did my thing. Of course while doing whatever I did I noticed there was no I doing those things, choosing with what to entertain myself, where my tastes and such came from, etc.

"There is no need to rush !", so I tried not to. :)

That's fine ! No problem. I'm going away with work tomorrow, back on Friday, so until then, keep LOOKING.

Notice your thoughts, sensations, feelings. If there is any 'contraction' or negativity (or anything else), see whether you can spot a separate self, see if you can catch the 'labelling' or 'identification' happening. Note how you feel.

Let me know what you experience ! Happy looking !

[Tundra]

Ok, have a good week! I'll keep at it. :)

[jimw]

Thanks Tundra - and consider this - what is there other than what is right now ? Where is the separate self, the little inner Tundra right now ?

Have a good look - don't think about it ;)

[jimw]

How you getting on Tundra ? I will try to check in tomorrow, have a wedding to go to ! Back Sunday.

What have the seen / found / experienced ? Did you find that elusive 'anti-santa' yet ?

[Tundra]

Well I haven't felt like I've "popped", but I feel like I'm quite possibly through. I feel just amazing all the time; stress free, positive, no negative emotions about my past (guilt or shame or whatever) nor about things I'd just done wrong. Thoughts are constantly "being correct" in relaxing any wrong thoughts. I had an interesting thought in my head that went something like "how absurd we live the assumption and not the reality", which just seemed nail-on-the-head.

"Did you find that elusive 'anti-santa' yet ?"
I found the presents my parents were hiding from me, not the anti-santa though :)

That's pretty much all the novel stuff. Here's a thought that just arose : "weddings must be a great place to practice presence!", my gift to you ;)