Guide me

[JonathanR]

Hi Vortex

Just to let you know, another LU guide, Vince, will be joining us.

Thanks

Jon

[Vortex]

Hi Jon, hi Vince and hi 2 others that I don't know your labels.

Yes of course body happens. But that's how I'd choose my words here. I'm not quite saying 'The body exists'.

OK, I see. You don't like the word 'existence' and you don't like the expressions 'human being' and 'human being is bio robot' - fine. Let's say those are just funny metaphors that have no value in describing how things happen and close the case with them.

Back to how things happen without self - very easy. Things happen by the great mystery of life. It is all connected, in is all one and it doesn't matter how we actually label it - life, universe, emptiness, God, absolute, whatever - cause every word is one and only a label with a story attached to it and that's all that can be said about it.

What else?

[vinceschubert]

Good day Vortex, vince here. 'my' story is that we have a problem with words. Communicating what Vortex and Jon and vince mean. Language is deficient when it comes to talking about this stuff, and we have to use analogy and metaphor to compensate.
When you say

It is all connected, in is all one

how do you know this?
..and when you say "one", do you mean one thing. A thing with boundaries and limits, or are you referring to the Advaita concept of 'not two'? (and even then, how do you know this?)
Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to trip you up. We just need clarity to see if there is anywhere that needs more investigation.

OK, I see. You don't like the word 'existence' and you don't like the expressions 'human being' and 'human being is bio robot' - fine.

No, this is not right. It's not that we don't like those terms. It's the inability to see how you are using them. On the surface it's easy to imagine that you have a story that they can be experienced as something actual. It's good that you add that they are metaphors. These concepts are useful in certain circumstances.
i too have a story about the brain. Useful, but always acknowledged as a story. It goes like this; please give me feedback on how it gels with you.
The brain interprets a nerve signal that starts with air vibrating. A sound is heard.
It interprets a different frequency as light, and seeing is imagined.
..and so on for each of the physical senses.
Then there is thoughts, verbal/visual/auditory thoughts. Forming a story. An explanation or description.
We respond to those stories with feelings. Emotions. More subtle and complicated sensations. Probably incorporating all of the above.
All of this is internal but projected outward. It's the world on a screen. Everybody and everything is an interpretation created by (this concept called) brain.
Sure, there are 'things' out there, but they are entirely different for an insect or an animal or a human. What they actually are (if they are actual) is better left as a mystery.
The only thing that is relevant for us here is experiencing and the memory of that (experiences)
If we limit our communication to the concepts that describe only experiences, we will get clear quickly.

Yes of course body happens.

This is a great example. Nothing is clear from what you say..

I'm not quite saying 'The body exists'.

You can experience sensation in certain parts of the body. You can see a part and label it an arm. If you slightly defocus you can even see two arms. ..but arm is a concept derived from skin color, shape, usage experience, etc. You can't see your organs and can't feel many of them. Only story says that they exist, so they are experienced as thoughts. It's only when we put all of this stuff together that we end up with a concept called body. It's a good and useful concept, but still it's a story.
i get that you know this, but my example is in how we communicate this stuff.
Please be more verbose when you respond to this post.

with love

vince

[Vortex]

Guys I an too tired to think - will write tomorrow...

[Vortex]

Back in the Vortex

how do you know this?

By using my 5 sense organs and the 6th special sense organ, the brain, to my best ability. Oh wait, I already said that I am not 100% sure (experiencially) if I have a brain as an internal organ so maybe I better say "my mind" and immediately clarify that by mind I mean minding or thinking.

and when you say "one", do you mean one thing. A thing with boundaries and limits,

One, thing, boundary and limit are all abstractions so, no, I don't mean that.

or are you referring to the Advaita concept of 'not two'? (and even then, how do you know this?)

No, I didn't come here to discuss philosophical ideas and to be honest it's quite a small part of the Advaita story that I have by far internalised.

What I mean is that just like 5+1 senses are connected within one (existing or happening) body and just how many bodies are connected within the air they are breathing in order to be bodies and not corpses, everything else is connected within one "whatever we name it" and separation is just another abstraction that we came up with for ease of communication. We can't really experience separation but can only conceptualise about it. I have tried to find the border between one of my eyes and the surrounding skin but no luck with that and any other experiment of this kind. No border between atm and shoulder, no border between river and ocean, no border anywhere to be found.

I already mentioned 5+1 senses but if 1 is an abstraction then 1+1 and 5+1 are also abstractions so in reality there are no senses but there's just the sensing where thinking about sensing is aspect of that same sensing.

It's good that you add that they are metaphors.

The more we learn about how language works, the more we understand that every linguistic expression is a metaphor, no? There is the word (label) and apart of the word there is the meaning (more words put together) and apart of that there is the experienced reality and apart of that there is the potential absolute reality. That being said a word is actually metaphor of the metaphor of the metaphor of God knows what. Still it is useful and that is just for the more mystery.

You can experience sensation in certain parts of the body. You can see a part and label it an arm. If you slightly defocus you can even see two arms. ..but arm is a concept derived from skin color, shape, usage experience, etc. You can't see your organs and can't feel many of them. Only story says that they exist, so they are experienced as thoughts. It's only when we put all of this stuff together that we end up with a concept called body. It's a good and useful concept, but still it's a story.

Let's see this from another perspective. We are born not knowing anything but just sensing. There are no senses but just the undivided sensing, just THIS. Then somehow mysteriously we realize that there is sensing(and)sensing or THIS(AND)THIS and we pronounce our first word - MaMa, DaDa or something less common like GuGu, GaGa, DuDu, WiWi etc. In a while we also realize that there is actually THIS and THAT so things begin to shift towards MoM-My and DaD-Dy. Separation is born and the inevitable consequence of Self and Other is just a question of time as well as all other separations. So it would be that only when we break apart experience that we come up with divisions like "sensing divided into five senses", "human being divided into body and mind" and "body divided into hands, feet, head, torso and heart". All of it abstract and artificial while in experience there is just the experience and that's as close to reality as we can get.

I am not saying the above to argue that what you are saying is incorrect because as far as we communicate through language we are always incorrect but I wanted to just complete the incorrectness of your story hoping you will see through and understand better what I mean when I say that "everything is connected".

Please be more verbose when you respond to this post.

Did my best. If there is any number of words desirable I'll again do my best to stay within limits.

[Vortex]

It goes like this; please give me feedback on how it gels with you.

All in all it's quite good and useful story.

[vinceschubert]

good evening Vortex, Geez, i don't know where to go with this.
Your words show plenty of understanding but your tone indicates to me that it's all head stuff.
It's as if your here to tell me stuff. There seems to be aggression if not anger in what you say. This is my story, and it may well be wrong, so I'm asking you, how accurate is it?

vince

[Vortex]

No, no, no, no, no.... no aggression Vince!

I kindly beg your pardon for coming up that way. As far as I can explain it it's just my hard effort to be authentic and not repeat blindly what I have read in the book "Gateless Gatecrashers" and in the threads of others on the forum. I was waiting for more than a week for a guide to contact me and I did a lot of reading during that time.

[vinceschubert]

Ah, excellent. i'm very pleased to be wrong.
Ok, please don''t be concerned about how you come across. i will attempt to be more skillful with my questions so as to keep your responses to be about experiencing.

No, no, no, no, no.... no aggression Vince!

I kindly beg your pardon for coming up that way.

This was your written response. What was your initial reaction on reading what i had posted?
When i say that Self is a story which is reinforced by the responses to it. Is your initial response a flurry of thoughts or sensations. (emotions)?

with love

vince

[Vortex]

What was your initial reaction on reading what i had posted?

My eyebrows went up and the thought "Oh Geez" appeared.

Is your initial response a flurry of thoughts or sensations. (emotions)?

It's both. Sensations enforce thoughts, thoughts reinforce sensations and at some point along this back and forth way bodily action of writing you back happens.

[vinceschubert]

Hey Vortex, we need to try and get a clear picture of your experience.
Words alone fail us in this regard. ..but we have to use them to describe for communication.
If i ask what is self?i need you to describe what is your experience of self.
i am looking for the mechanics of identification. Is there something in your description that reveals a belief in something.
The best way for this to happen is to ramble. Don't edit what you write. ...but no knowledge, no information, no conclusions. Just description of how you experience Self.
Do you experience ownership?
Do you ever have a 'head swell' when success happens?
Do you feel down when failure visits?

with love

vince

[Vortex]

Do you experience ownership?

Sure I do. As a story in my head and some hard to describe sensations.

Do you ever have a 'head swell' when success happens?

Yes but definitely not like I had it years ago when my Ego (another label for Self I'd say) was skyrocketing. I would call it a "heart swell" if I have to describe the experience of it because that is the dominant area where I experience it.

Do you feel down when failure visits?

Again, yes, but it doesn't stick cause there is no story to complete and reinforce. It's just feeling that comes and goes.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Vortex, So we have these stories that a lot of people take as literal that you have recognized as conceptual.
Can you list some that you can say that since recognizing them has changed experiencing for you?

with love

vince

[Vortex]

Been busy. Will write tomorrow.

[Vortex]

Back in the Vortex

Can you list some that you can say that since recognizing them has changed experiencing for you?

Here we go

Arguing - when talking to friends before I would like most of people make an argument that I would consider to be true and try to defend it in any way possible even with the price of becoming more or less unfriendly. Now since experiencing is all the really matters I have shifted gears towards making arguments that are more fun no matter if they have anything to do with the truth or not and I am trying to defend those arguments in the funniest way possible with the one and only intention of having more pleasant experience even with the price of making fun of myself.

Social status - I have always cared a lot about how people see me and if for example I went out with the wrong shirt that could occasionally ruin my whole time out. Now that I don't own such mental trash for more than mere minutes I have all the tree attention to direct to the music currently playing, to what people around me are actually saying, I notice how they but not me are actually looking and I can give a compliment here and there etc. etc. so I am getting much more pleasure from the time I spend socializing. Without the story of self being worthy or unworthy well-being became the most natural thing to feel in most of circumstances.

Logic - this one is big for me. Like everyone else I always thought that something can either be true or false but now since I realize there is no self and other and it is all stories I see deeper and deeper how everything can be both right and wrong and neither right nor wrong. Let's take the most trivial true thing of 2+2=4 In reality this can be only temporary true in the occasion of 2 men and 2 women on a lonely Island for example or in the case of 2 women and 2 other women but some of them being already pregnant. This is another reason for me to give up on arguing - if both me and my opponent are both right and wrong and neither right nor wrong than arguing about pretty much everything becomes pointless. When I was recently explaining this to a friend of mine he said to me "Oh, but you are just playing with words here" and I said to him "That is even more true that you might now realize cause that's all that a word is - a play"