Seeing that Frees

[Mamaki]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I get this intellectually that there isn't a place that I can point to in myself that is me or I and I try to be content with holding my sense of self lightly. But there is a growing dissatisfaction with not getting this truth on an emotional, behavioural level. I want to live from it and open to a simpler less conceptual way of being in the world.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help in seeing through stories about myself and others that are propped up by this deep-rooted notion of a self. It would be such a blessing to be guided to really look at what is actually happening in my experience in a simple uncontrived way by someone who knows from their own liberated experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be challenged to really look at my actual felt experience rather than my ideas about it. Being quite undisciplined on my own I would imagine that being guided would help me stay with the process more and not shrink back in the way I most likely would if I were left to my own devices.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have 25 years of Buddhism (ordained for 15), 8 years of Druidry and 10 years of 12 step higher power work. So lots of spiritual disciplines and my deepest spiritual experiences have usually been alone (or with others in silence) through meditation and/or in nature. I have quite a literal analytical mind that needs to be balanced by poetry and the imagination as well as devotional practise and loving kindness methods. When I have tried in the past to think about direct pointing I have tied my brain in knots! I have enjoyed the Enlightened Quotes app and just dropped them into my every day life now for a few years. I read a bit of Rob Burbea's 'Seeing that Frees' book and I enjoyed the atmosphere of how he writes but it all seemed too much like hard work! Somehow relaxing and opening to the body and nature give me the sense of loosening my sense of self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 6

[vinceschubert]

Hi Mamaki, vince here. Sorry for such a long wait. As most bodies that pass through the gate simply disappear and very few remain to guide (and deepen), we have many more seekers waiting than guides to accompany them.
So, let's jump straight into the deep end.
My intention is to help you recognize the difference between what is actual and what is concept. Simple aye? (haha)
Do this exercise;
Take a cup and put it in front of you. Now just look at it.
Notice how thoughts want to label it as a cup. They (thoughts) might also analyze and label characteristics of it.
Thoughts want to be busy so they will keep doing this for a while, but eventually they will get bored and there will appear gaps between them. They will be short in the beginning, but when a gap appears, notice what you are seeing no longer looking, but seeing) The moment you notice what you are seeing, mind will return and attempt to label again. Just ignore and wait for the next gap.
This time notice that thoughts would be entirely inadequate to describe what you are seeing accurately.
The shape, the color, the texture, etc is too subtle for words to do them justice.
Can you see this?
Report your experience please.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello Vince
Many many thanks for committing to guide me. I hope I can use this wonderful opportunity effectively.

I looked at the cup. My cup, and thoughts came like a shoal of fishes. They described its meaning, friend gave it to me, the image of reindeer on it, how I love it. Then I started to draw it in my minds eye remembering how I used to love drawing and really seeing the object. My mind quieted a little as instead of words describing it, it was images of looking as if I were to draw it. Every now and then other thoughts took me away into thinking about this LU process (journey beginning at last) and feeling excited and trying to work out what I was supposed to 'see'.

It was extremely subtle but I think I experienced moments of seeing the cup for it's own sake...It also looked subtly different every time I looked.

At times I felt an intimacy with it. I might have only looked for 10 minutes so not sure if that was enough. Eventually boredom brought it to an end.

You mention how words cant do it justice and I see that. Visual imagery was describing it better for me.
I also had a sense that I was breathing and looking at times so sensing me and cup together.

Blessings Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

good evening Mamaki,

Visual imagery was describing it better for me.

Ok, I'm going to ask you to do it again. This time i want you to discard any description while you are doing the exercise. You can allow thoughts (visual or otherwise) to describe the memory of what you were seeing when reporting back to me.
As you begin doing it, i want you to contemplate the difference between looking and seeing.
There is a seeing that happens before the mind arrives to describe.
i don't expect that you will be able to relay that experience accurately to me, but you will attempt to.

Eventually boredom brought it to an end.

This happens when the mind demand stimulation. There is no time requirement for this. To simply experience, even for an instant, seeing without description or labelling (or any other distraction) is what we are after.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello again vince

Many thanks for your reply. I felt excited to look again.

I looked for much longer (35 mins).
Thoughts were not easy to see.
I was following the instruction '
'discard any description while you are doing the exercise'
Thoughts felt like a thick fluid moving. Almost as if trying to evade my gaze! They still looked in a painterly way noticing colour and light. I noticed feeling arise with the sense of ownership and with the cute image on the cup. As time went by I found new ways to engage with the cup through looking and felt pleased with myself! Noticed new details not seen before. A reflection of my legs, the pattern repeating.

I contemplated the difference between looking and seeing and only managed a conceptual answer. Which is that looking is overlaid with all my stuff and seeing is about what's really there. But I couldn't really experience cup without all my projections of thought and feeling. Thoughts were then about 'am I getting this right?' Answered by thoughts that this is the process of learning to see.
I'm happy to keep looking and eager to start seeing.

I look forward to your response

Blessings of English blossoms

Mamaki

[Mamaki]

Hi again vince
Really appreciated your reply, thankyou.

I was really excited to be asked to look again.
I looked for much longer (35 mins).

Thoughts were not easy to see. I was following the instruction
'discard any description while you are doing the exercise'
They felt like a thick fluid moving. Almost as if they were trying to evade my gaze!

They still looked in a painterly way noticing colour and light as if I were to draw or paint it.
I noticed feeling arise with the sense of ownership and with the cute image on the cup.
As time went by I found new ways to engage with the cup feeling pleased with myself for not getting bored!
Noticed new details not seen before. A reflection of my legs, the pattern repeating. Wondered if this was more seeing than looking...?

I tried to contemplate the difference between looking and seeing and only managed a conceptual answer. Couldn't really experience cup without all my projections of thought and feeling.

Thoughts were then about 'am I getting this right?' Answered by thoughts that this is the process of learning to see.
I'm happy to keep looking and eager to start seeing.

I look forward to your response.

Blessings of English blossoms

Mamaki

[Mamaki]

Sorry for 2 replies, thought I'd lost first reply so rewrote it! Will copy to memo next time so I dont lose it
Blessings
Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

Sorry for 2 replies

No worries.

I looked for much longer (35 mins).

Don't make a chore of it. Just a couple of minutes to get into a meditative state, then as soon as gaps happen between thoughts do it.

noticing colour and light

Of course, to describe to me (or yourself) these concepts will come into play. ..but there is a split second when you are seeing where there are no thoughts. No descriptions (yet)
This time when you are doing it, ask yourself in those split seconds, is there anyone looking. Is there something being looked at, or is there just seeing?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello again vince

Many thanks for your comments and questions. It was really encouraging to be invited to not make looking a chore.

You asked me to
'get into a meditative state, then as soon as gaps happen between thoughts do it.'

Despite years of meditation this was easier said than done!

So hard to notice gaps. Noticed thoughts more easily with eyes closed...when I looked at the cup it was more difficult to notice thoughts separate from the looking.

The words 'I can't do this' were forcefully expressed in thought when I tried this exercise. They came on several occasions but I didn't believe them and kept looking.

You asked 'is there someone looking?' and 'is there something being looked at?'

Honest answer, I dont know.

Theoretically yes there is a looker and a cup but experientially there is no separation. I couldn't say for sure if there is a looker and a cup. Theres a seamless sense of seeing...

Blessings Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

Despite years of meditation this was easier said than done!

Ok, consider the possibility that the difficulty is an opportunity.

The words 'I can't do this' were forcefully expressed in thought when I tried this exercise. They came on several occasions but I didn't believe them and kept looking.

Ah, excellent to a beginning of a new relationship with thoughts.
We shouldn't get too diverted with this yet, but it is a good segue into the subject of story.
Are thoughts ever a literal statement of what is actual, or an indicative indication of how things might be?

is there anyone looking. Is there something being looked at,

Honest answer, I dont know.

Good answer. When you consider this in future, remember that the answer needs to come from a memory of experiencing and not a logical conclusion.

Theoretically yes there is a looker and a cup but experientially there is no separation. ... There's a seamless sense of seeing...

You may have met the intent of this exercise with this observation. To recognize the difference between theory and experience. So cogitate on this; From the perspective of the organism (with the label Mamaki) is there any thing other than experiencing that is actual? (not a story about..)

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello Vince

Many thanks for your questions. Lots to ponder and cogitate and not much time today. I think we're in different time zones. I'm in the UK and will write later this evening. So you may not get my response until tomorrow, .

All good wishes
Mamaki

[Mamaki]

Hi vince

You asked:
'Are thoughts ever a literal statement of what is actual'

Not really, no. Some hit the spot better than others...when I look within for how I'm feeling for example, sometimes a thought might capture very accurately how Im feeling - a resonance of rightness can happen and I can find that affirming...yet it changes...

'or an indicative indication of how things might be?'

Yes more this - they just point to something experienced as if it's a static separate thing...

'So cogitate on this; From the perspective of the organism (with the label Mamaki) is there any thing other than experiencing that is actual? (not a story about..)'

Experiencing as an organism labelled Mamaki is actual.
But contemplating something actual outside of experiencing...hard to look at this head on. Hard to imagine it...if its not actually in my experience then it's a thought or idea. It is imagined.

This is as far as I got in a small amount of time.

Thanks for reading this, vince, much appreciated

Blessings Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

This is as far as I got in a small amount of time.

It was exactly what i wanted to read. Good stuff.
Ok, this one gets a little tricky. Thoughts are experienced. What those thoughts are about is a story. That is, it's conceptual. ..but we respond to the content of those thoughts.
Is a controlling self a thought story that we react to? ..or is it something actual?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

'Many thanks vince

You asked
'IIs a controlling self a thought story that we react to?'

I intuit a yes . But I cant answer with full conviction.

'or is it something actual?'

Definitely not actual

Migraine today so difficult to write

Blessings

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

s a controlling self a thought story that we react to?'

I intuit a yes . But I cant answer with full conviction.

Stay with this until the migraine ends. Meditate on it and the head pain. Watch for stories about the migraine.
Come back when you are well.

with love

vince